View Full Version : Turrets are worthless
Last night i was involved in some OP-taking action. What do you think people shouted over team when they saw that there was turrets in the op? "Oh no, there's a turret! Take it out fast"? Noooo.... it was more like "Don't kill the turrets! Just ignore them, they will be ours when the op is hacked.".
Turrets are supposed to serve as early warning/anti ninja/battle support but when you easily can stealth/walk right past them they are useless. Turrets often agro on someone that gives them a couple of wacks and then hides behind a wall, resulting in that the rest of the attacking force can safely stand right next to them. :rolleyes:
And stun traps... what utter crap. In the old days they were stun & push, now they just make it marginaly a litte more dificult to walk into a room "protected" by a stun trap, but no problem at all really. :rolleyes:
All in all; the turrets that are suposed to slow down the attacker so that you can defend/counter-attack don't work so when you get word that the op is under attack you arrive about the time all the turrets belong to the enemy and helps them against you. :(
Any thoughts?
true, i dont think the turrets should be made more powerful, just changed to they work differently.
Vampire_Reaver
30-07-04, 13:39
yeah turrets are utter junk.. it a total waste of cash to even have any... sure its good to have a gatlin turret or 2 to protect from ninja hack, but thats also all... in a OP war the turrets does nothing, zip, nada, null ..
at most they are annoying pushing u around.. :p
better placement of turrets would result in them saying take out turrets rather than leave them.
they say that because they can hack the op without the turrets hindering them.
Turrets should give a warning when they begin to fire at something. Not when they are blown up.
Also there should be security cameras!
better placement of turrets would result in them saying take out turrets rather than leave them.
they say that because they can hack the op without the turrets hindering them.
Last night there were a gatling turret and a stun trap covering the hack terminal. No problem at all, just make someone else agro it and you're safe. The stun were in the best place you could find but it was still just a few seconds delay to walk past it.
Actually we lost a hacker once, a soulcluster and rezz later the op was ours.
And i agree that making the turrets deal more damage isn't a good idea, change the way it's attacking instead. Perhaps attacking the ones closest to them or something.
Also; I know first-hand that a gatling eats away lots of juicy % from a Rhino that's attacking it but a runner with ppu support has no reason at all to fear a turret. Perhaps they should bypass deflectors to make people take notice of them, it's not like that could be exploitable.
Turrets useds to be well over powered. I liek it as it is, never used them really though. They are a early warning system... how can u say there not?
Stuns are still lame... and gats hurt if u don't have a ppu. DOn't see a problem.
Was fighting at mal with a m8 againt about 6 ppl and they kept running into the hack room to rebuff as we couldnt tuch the turrets..
Nothing wrong stop whyning :P
funkeymonkey
30-07-04, 14:05
I think turrets are usefull, especially gats in the hack rooms and stuns near op enterances.
Turrets useds to be well over powered. I liek it as it is, never used them really though. They are a early warning system... how can u say there not?
If you don't destroy the turrets they don't give a warning. :rolleyes:
Was fighting at mal with a m8 againt about 6 ppl and they kept running into the hack room to rebuff as we couldnt tuch the turrets..
That's exactly what turrets are for.
And of course you could touch the turrets, you can always use AOE weapons if the defenders are making it difficult to get to them. Perhaps you were to few against the defending force, then you should loose.
Turrets are less used these days for spamming since they are Construct only, but I wouldn't say they were completely useless, if placed correctly they can hinder an attacking force enough to give the defenders valuable time to organise defense. My current clan doesn't use them but we will try and keep enemies turrets intact if we can.
However, this is only Gat3's and Stuns, the rest are useless imho.
as selendor said, the only worthwhile turrets are the gat3 and stunner.
Stunners are a joke. Having that push effect is laughable. I think a better solution would of been to have a catharsis or anti para counter the effect of a old stunner effect. Instead the stunner was made a push turret. It really isnt as effective as it used to be.
As the resident shadow turret whore, I can tell you that turrets (gats specifically) still have their uses. If you are finding turrets ineffective, the problem lies in a few things:
You are using store bought turrets; you are placing them in bad areas; you arent placing enough; you havent mastered the skill of beating an OP defense.
There has been times when Shadow (Saturn) has defended an op with nothing more than a raptor constructor and a shitload of gats. The ninja's are not ninjas anymore. Ninjahacker originated from when OPs were a single hack system and a sole hacker went and hacked the entire map. Now a 3 man hack squad who takes advantage of an undefended op is not a ninja. A trio of hackers who has a ppu a tank and a apu defending them isnt a ninja. Its a small op team.
Back on turrets.
The artillery 3 turret is way underpowered. Unbuffed, that turrets Rate of fire is way to low and the DoT damage it delivers sucks!
The MK2 Plasma turrets are way too under shielded and the damage output will kill your average noob. I would settle for the weak damage if you quadripled the RoF.
The Gat is just fine. One gat vs a ppu = joke
4 gats vs a inexperienced fully buffed ppu = dead ppu
4 gats vs a experienced fully buffed ppu = a ppu who needs to wash his shitted underpants
Gats eat up APU's PE's and spies alike. The only character that I have seen take on a whole array of properly placed turrets is a tank with ppu support.
OP defense does need a revision. Gat MK3's are the only turret that is effective in game. artillery turrets are not worth placing since its one less gat you can use. Not only that but they are only somewhat useful in wide open ops like grant mine. if you see the turret engaging, its because it detected the enemy way before you could. It has the range and scanning capacity that surpasses the generep.
Turrets can be of great help. Gatlins and stuns that are, the other turrets are wank.
But still, turrets can make it impossible to take an op. Worst i've seen was more than 10 turrets in the hackroom and on the ramp up to it. Even worse they somehow managed to put stuns INTO the gatlins. Deleted my screenshots though, so i havent got any evidence. :(
Worst thing is if you bring some people to an op just to see theres turrets everywhere. So you cant get into the hackroom or even the op without destroying some, so the enemy will be there pretty early, having the UG, the turrets and the OP while you have to stay outside. Pointless fight.
Turrets can be of great help. Gatlins and stuns that are, the other turrets are wank.
But still, turrets can make it impossible to take an op. Worst i've seen was more than 10 turrets in the hackroom and on the ramp up to it. Even worse they somehow managed to put stuns INTO the gatlins. Deleted my screenshots though, so i havent got any evidence. :(
Worst thing is if you bring some people to an op just to see theres turrets everywhere. So you cant get into the hackroom or even the op without destroying some, so the enemy will be there pretty early, having the UG, the turrets and the OP while you have to stay outside. Pointless fight.
There is a limit of 8 turrets per OP, not sure how many patches agot that limit was introduced.
I agree that the only usable turrets are gatlings, stun and artilley are semi-usable. The rest of the turrets isn't worth the bother and/or OP security slot.
Even if the room with the hack terminal is full of 8 gatlings, all you have to do is get a tank/apu with AOE weapons to hit the turrets a couple of times (nowhere near to killing them and setting off the alarm) and then stand outside the OP. The turrets are now targeting him and only him while the hackers can hack the OP without any risk.
The only use for turrets at the moment is to sound off the noob alarm when some stupid runner kills a turret, the OP owners now know that there's a noob in the attacking force and are happy about it.
There's one other use where the turrets really are usefull and that's when there is actually a fight going on and you can't use clever tactics like agro:ing the turrets to one runner who is standing outside the OP.
If you don't destroy the turrets they don't give a warning. :rolleyes:
That's exactly what turrets are for.
And of course you could touch the turrets, you can always use AOE weapons if the defenders are making it difficult to get to them. Perhaps you were to few against the defending force, then you should loose.
Place stuns in the right place and u have to :rolleyes:
Thats what i was saying.... if that what there for... how can they be uselss. fuck sakes wish ppl would stop being so fucking retarted and actually post useful posts.. 40% of the time :)
We have 89 turrets layed against us 1 day at hawkins by FF.. turrets needed work :)
To be fair they do stop enemy teams of 3 hackers (spies) from hacking your op, they would need a ppu to do it.
I like the idea of some new functions for Turrets - Antistealth, De-buff :eek: Damage boost etc would be very interesting. You'd really have to destroy a turret if it took out your shields close to a Gat 3. That would be a good deterrent.
true, i dont think the turrets should be made more powerful, just changed to they work differently.
I think turrets should:
a.) Spot stealth
b.) Artillery turrets should be allowed to sit on top of structures.
c.) Be moddable. =P
d.) Be required to be destoryed before hack can begin.
My personal view on turret changes:
Make them see stealthers
Increase StunTrap AoE so if a StunTrap is on a hackterm it must be destroyed for the hack to begin.
Make them give more messages: If they are shot, a message is sent. Options to broadcast on faction chat too.
Allow Artillery turrets on buildings- if you can't target them you have to get up there and shoot them from behind, so it's hard to take them out but maybe nerf their damage a bit.
Message on 'enemy detected'
Interactive feedback on their status, implement the same coding as vehicles so you can see health and state (Enemies in proximity, Stealthers, etc)
Auto-destruct on OP hacked (on 3rd layer taken)
Moddable to see stealthers (Standard model doesn't see them and the enemy can't see if they can see stealthers or not)
Place stuns in the right place and u have to :rolleyes:
Thats what i was saying.... if that what there for... how can they be uselss. fuck sakes wish ppl would stop being so fucking retarted and actually post useful posts.. 40% of the time :)
We have 89 turrets layed against us 1 day at hawkins by FF.. turrets needed work :)
It is very possible to walk through a stun trap after their nerf, it just takes a few seconds more.
The primary function of turrets is to sound the alarm and delay the attacker long enough to organize a defence. If they are unable to do this the only use for the turrets are as battle support to drop when you arive on scene.
The automated defence systems needs babysitters. :rolleyes:
Dropping huge amounts of turrets in the middle of the battle is not a good thing, that's why KK added the CST reqs on dropping turrets. I still feel that there should be a construction time aswell, but it's a good start.
And please be civil.
1. Make turrets instantly attack the closest enemy. (Well, depending on the attack settings.)
2. Dropped turrets start at 1 health, then gain more until they are at full health after about 5 minutes.
just make heal be removed when people get hit, I hardly think that 3 hacking ppus can bypass defences so easily, then have 3 other ppus that drop turrets, enough is enough...
3. Make them give more messages: If they are shot, a message is sent. Options to broadcast on faction chat too.
7. Auto-destruct on OP hacked (on 3rd layer taken)Great ideas. I especially like the faction option, although that would probably become an empire option after BDoY.
See stealthers, but also add some more turrets that do crazy stuff.
like drop shields but very little damage.
cause mis-heals
disable PPU effects in a bubble area.
magnitize drones
draw certain fired shots to them instead of the turret owner.
disable stealther fields.
cause Craft damage (when in a bubble area)
stuff like that. Will give CST'ers more reason to drop them.
true turrets sux bad we had a op 4 turrets placed 4 gats we happy messinga round in plaza seeing the masage turret destory 4 off them in less then a second behind the first one to blow up so erm ok turret nice but it gos down way to fast for a defence item sweet to keep anoying nibs out but a god ninja squad wacks then crap out them
I think we all agree that all turrets needs to be changed a bit, especially their rules of engagement. And the turrets themselves needs to be reworked so that more than Gatling MK3 are (realisticly) usable.
Here are the ideas i liked (mixed with my own):
* Turrets should warn the owners not just when they are destroyed. I'd like to se messages like "This is Grant Mine. Hostiles detected, opening fire." and also every 1-2 minutes while the turrets are active "This is Grant Mine. Outpost still under attack, defences active.".
* Turrets should only attack hostile runners, not mobs. Their purpose is to defend the op after all, mobs can't threaten it.
* Turrets should attack not the runner that did damage to it 45 minutes ago, but the runners it has a realistic change of hitting, most probably the ones closest to it.
* Turrets should work as a team by targeting the same runner if possible. They are after all hitech and should be able to cooperate.
* Turrets should take time to set up, some CST time in addition to the CST requirements. I wouldn't mind having to stand still for 30 sec when placing a turret, that would make it almost impossible to drop turrets mid-fight. The CST process could after the initial 30 sec placement continue with the turret starting at 1% health and don't become operational until 100% a few minutes later.
* To make turrets more of a threat stun traps should be changed so that they actually work, and add debuffing capacity. If a stun supported by a damage dealing turret drops your shields and removes your stealth you will most definitely want to take them out before you come close.
* As a final resort, when detecting the take over of the op, the turrets should auto destruct so that they will not fall in hostile hands. This is of course if the turrets are made dangerous with some of the above ideas, if it's not possible you should have to destroy all turrets before starting to hack so they at least will be of some warning.
And security cameras to be able to check the op would be nice. :)
tbh and this is not having a dig here, if you place turrets stupidly they will get pwned and be no use. you want mutual cover and overlapping fields of fire. is gonna take a capped ppu to survive 2 or 3 gat 3's hitting them at the same time.
tbh and this is not having a dig here, if you place turrets stupidly they will get pwned and be no use. you want mutual cover and overlapping fields of fire. is gonna take a capped ppu to survive 2 or 3 gat 3's hitting them at the same time.
Did you really read the thread? :confused:
I have been saying that turrets are easily bypassed, regardless of placement, the whole thread.
Make 3 types of OP defense.
All defense should be static, no runners can place anything. The clan which has the OP has these choices on defense:
1. A couple of turrets, a single ppu would be able to run through with not too much of an effort, other solo classes would die in the attempt. Price: 100k
2. Heavy defense, a lot of turrets, experienced PPUs can still run through, inexperinced ppus will die, so will all other classes. Price: 300k
3. Extreme defense, no enemies can enter the OP without dying. You have to blast your way through, preferably with long distance attacks. Price: 1 mil.
* Turrets can see through stealth.
* All turrets are completely reworkded. Featuring anti heal turrets, timed antibuff turrets (a timer will show, when it runs out you get antibuffed) and others.
* The first hack will disable all OP defense and
* The defending team will no longer be able to zone down to the underground when they have zoned up.
* When an OP is hacked, it cannot be hacked in the next 24 hours
I have probably forgot some good ideas, but basically a complete rework of the OP system, and the turret system is needed for NC2.
Especially I think it's important that runners can't place turrets because it just sucks..
In an OP fight not long ago it was a fair fight, we were about 10 they were about 10, but then they decide to drop like 4-6 gats and suddenly we get owned, we should have the opportunity to kill all OP defense BEFORE going in, instead of turrets appearing out of nowhere on the ground...
What i would like to know...what is the maximum allowed / possible / overall number of turrets you can put down at an op?
Clownst0pper
31-07-04, 19:47
The construct time isnt long enough
And you can still stealth turret.
Lets fix that first.
@ Xizor: Static defense sounds boring.
@ SorkZmok: The limit is 8 turrets per OP.
Turrets need to get much more armor and shouldnt be effected by buffs (they should damage through them). Also the artillerys need MUCH more range and damage.
I think stun TRAPs should suck people in instead of pushing (maybe they could make 2 versions), then start damaging you when you get close to the center, or allow another turret to shoot you :)
@ SorkZmok: The limit is 8 turrets per OP.
I counted 11 at nemesis today and I think the limit is generally 12, turret dropping should be disabled after the first hack until the op is rehacked or resets to stop turret spammage, after that yeah up the damage on laser and plasma turrets add a few other turret types to make them more interesting.
Over a year ago, the problems of turrets was brought up and loads of good ideas where mentioned.
There needs to be a wider range of placeable defense objects within an outpost.
1.. Cameras, allow clan members of a certain rank view what cameras see within an outpost from the clan appartment. These cameras would cost something like 50k each. A low level construction level and limited to say 6 of these per outpost.
2.. Sensors, there could be a few different types we could have here, only 6 of these types of turrets can be placed within an outpost;
a.. motion sensor turret, which detects movement of hostiles within a certain area. The type of hostiles it would detect depends on the outpost settings.
b.. Advance movement sensor, aimed to detect those which are using a stealth device. This would then unstealth that runner allowing the other turrets to target them. These would cost 100k each.
3.. Defense Turrets, turrets aimed to destroy hostiles; 8 placed max.
a.. Laser turret (levels 1,2,3) cost 50k, 60k, 70k. These do energy damage and knock back. Basically when they hit you they hurt but also push you back. These would be perfect for trying to keep a target away.
b.. Gatlin turret (levels 1,2,3) cost 70k, 80k, 90k. These do peirce and force damage against hostiles and fire very rapidly. They are the main choice for dealing damage to attackers. They also have more armour than laser turrets.
c.. Artillery turret, cost 125k. These would be for supporting the other turrets and also firing on hostiles that are retreating away from the outpost. These aren't activated until another turret in the outpost has spotted or attacked a hostile. These turrets would also have a select of damage options when purchasing them you can select from the damage types that they can do. They are also aoe turrets, meaning that they deal damage to a small area.
4.. Other turrets, this would include the stun turret. This should be a turret that has the ability to either force all hostiles to move at walk speed or changed back to the old settings where they act more like a force field and pushes hostiles back and doesn't let them pass.
Turret warning system...
In the city com clans should have the ability to change the settings for a turret warning system, a couple of options could be,
- Display warning when turrets identify hostiles.
- Display warning when turrets are attacked.
- Display warning when turret is destroyed.
This would then allow clans to set an option, if they dont want to get spammed with messages then they can just have the last option on. Also with these options you can select all 3 if you want too. So you could have messages come up in clan chat when turrets have identified hostiles or have been attacked or have been destroyed.
Of course the first option would be only enabled if you had a turret which was of a sensor type which can identify hostiles.
Turrets should also be allowed to be placed ontop of buildings, last time I checked there where a few bunkers out there with missile launchers ontop of them and dont military base also have a turret ontop of that ? I can understand the reason placing turrets ontop of buildings was considered an exploit, but its more of a programming bug, turret firing distances should be fixed so they can only fire a certain distance. If need be redesign the gen reps so that they have a little more cover than they currently have so that even if turrets have a clear view of the gen rep they would not be able to fire through the wall at any one that could be there.
I would also say that outposts would be a lot more interesting if we could place additional walls in certain places and set up guard posts. Basically the whole outposts need a redesign in my personal opinion. Outpost fighting is a large part of the game and cause of that it needs focusing on. There have been some excellent ideas in the past on these forums of ways to improve them. A couple ideas I remember reading was to place a wall at the entrances of outposts which either needed to be destroyed or hacked before anyone could even enter the outpost.
Also someone else mentioned about having vehicle depots at certain outposts like a fortress to make vehicles a more viable option in fighting.
Also how about adding additional towers in certain outpost sectors such as fortress to make attacking the outpost that little bit harder. At these towers additional turrets could be placed with a sensor to act as a early warning system.
A fortress in my mind would be a very hard place to attack and capture. A small force of just a few people should not be able to take one if there are defences.
Anyway I think that covers most of the things that I wanted to say. I hope some of these ideas are implemented with doy if not maybe add an additional outpost addon at a later date like DAoC did with a total revamp of the outpost system.
Anyway thats it.
I counted 11 at nemesis today and I think the limit is generally 12, turret dropping should be disabled after the first hack until the op is rehacked or resets to stop turret spammage, after that yeah up the damage on laser and plasma turrets add a few other turret types to make them more interesting.
That's really strange. Always when i drop turrets at OPs i get the limit at 8. Perhaps different turrets are "worth" different amounts of security slots? :confused:
Basically the whole outposts need a redesign in my personal opinion. Outpost fighting is a large part of the game and cause of that it needs focusing on. There have been some excellent ideas in the past on these forums of ways to improve them. A couple ideas I remember reading was to place a wall at the entrances of outposts which either needed to be destroyed or hacked before anyone could even enter the outpost.
This is an idea i would love to see implemented; making an inner and an outer part of the OP with some kind of mechanism (turrets/hacks/destroying something/etc) delaying the attackers so that the defenders have time to gather forces in the inner part, make a battle plan, buff up, etc.
Lets face it; todays UG's are no good and no fun. GR camping was replaced by UG camping. Letting the two sides have time and place to organize a good and fair fight would make the fight more fun. And that's what the game is about; fun.
B.A-Baracus
01-08-04, 00:14
Anyone who would say turrets are worthless is a fool and yes I pitty da fools who dissagree. I have watched turrets change the tides of so many op wars. Yes even after all the fucking patches. Yes it would be great to have alot of new stuff but pls most of the ideas you guys post on these threads are BULL SH!T and never going to happen, like the guy who said somthing about placing walls in ops. Yeah and it would be cool if I could get PSI powers IRL but its not going to happen. This thread is pointless and whats even worse is the people who post things that will never happen so pls stop wasting peoples time.
Anyone who would say turrets are worthless is a fool and yes I pitty da fools who dissagree. I have watched turrets change the tides of so many op wars. Yes even after all the fucking patches. Yes it would be great to have alot of new stuff but pls most of the ideas you guys post on these threads are BULL SH!T and never going to happen, like the guy who said somthing about placing walls in ops. Yeah and it would be cool if I could get PSI powers IRL but its not going to happen. This thread is pointless and whats even worse is the people who post things that will never happen so pls stop wasting peoples time.
yea right i have seen 5 gat mk3 turrets getting wasted by just 2 apus and a ppu turrets do sux
Anyone who would say turrets are worthless is a fool and yes I pitty da fools who dissagree. I have watched turrets change the tides of so many op wars. Yes even after all the fucking patches. Yes it would be great to have alot of new stuff but pls most of the ideas you guys post on these threads are BULL SH!T and never going to happen, like the guy who said somthing about placing walls in ops. Yeah and it would be cool if I could get PSI powers IRL but its not going to happen. This thread is pointless and whats even worse is the people who post things that will never happen so pls stop wasting peoples time.
Why does everyone instantly start screaming about the misuse of turrets when i am talking about the use of them? When you are talking about "turning the tide" you are obviously talking about defenders dropping turrets mid-fight, that's the only way they can turn the tide of a battle.
And stop insulting the people trying to help out by brainstorming. If this thread is so pointless you must find the rest of the forum equaly, if not more, pointless and should refrain from visiting it.
maybe a late post but, what about trip wire turrets?
that are triggered after a set scenario?
theres your warning :lol:
When/if the ability comes to take over or disable turrets I think they should
be drastically increased in effectiveness in order to increase the incentive for
attackers to have hackers working in hacknet.
eric-the-ded
01-08-04, 04:57
when those newer turrets (gat, mortar, stun, etc) were first added on the test server, they were godlike.
mega damage, bigtime parashock, insane range. i kinda liked it except for the range. their range allowed them to hit you anywhere in the zone. that kinda sucked. you'd go to the ASG outside jeriko and get blown away by a mortar from inside the OP.
but i liked turrets being feared again.
you'd enter an OP and think "oh shit. they got gatlins." instead of "psh.. *shelter*"
Anyone who would say turrets are worthless is a fool and yes I pitty da fools who dissagree. I have watched turrets change the tides of so many op wars. Yes even after all the fucking patches. Yes it would be great to have alot of new stuff but pls most of the ideas you guys post on these threads are BULL SH!T and never going to happen, like the guy who said somthing about placing walls in ops. Yeah and it would be cool if I could get PSI powers IRL but its not going to happen. This thread is pointless and whats even worse is the people who post things that will never happen so pls stop wasting peoples time.
Thats only because all your monks construct and have all str in transport so they can turret whore for hours which is misusing turrets and the one thing that bugs most people about turrets.
TTS turrets would be kewl.... aka infa red cameras that are linked to the other turrets so they can shoot stealthers :)
<3<3
I've taked about cameras b4... not player controled just when they are a stationary mob that instread of agroing seneds a message to the clan freqently trhat ppl are at the OP. maybe says how many ppl are in view as well. (jsut make it so its not spamming)
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