Make S/D/H selfcast only?

[MjukisDjur]

Yup, topic says it all. Its old but its worth bringing up again.
Do you think that shelter, deflector and heal should be selfcast only and the only way to buff other with these specific buffs are to use the group spells...?

That means no more keep mr "insert favorite offensive class" alive without buffing the opponent as well...
I think it would make fights a hell of lot more interesting and make people group better instead of just running around almost invincible for 2 minutes and return to ppu for buffage and then keep going.

Bra eller anus?

Edit; where the fuck did the poll option window go?? Grrrr

[enigma_b17]

yea, erm no thanks

[MjukisDjur]

When you click the submit button, you will be taken to the poll creation page, where you can specify the question and the list of responses you want to include.

Mods, kill this. Ill try again sometime

[Lethys]

Either S/D only or Heal only, not both.

[Richard Slade]

S/D self-only
H @ 65% of it's capability


@Mjukis - You watch to much crap on TV...

[Shadow Dancer]

S/D seflcast.

[msdong]

pro.
thats what group and sanctums are for.

[MjukisDjur]

hmm yes S/D would probably be more than enough. It boosts the defenses to silly levels...

[phunqe]

Anyone who wants to go mc5, doy bots/storms/etc, worm tunnels, doy tunnels or any other high level dungeon with S/D selfcast only, raise a hand.

S/D at selfcast only would require a redesign of all high level mobs. They would have to be toned down to a degree when it's not funny anymore.
Can people please think outside of the PvP box?

[msdong]

it would simply require more them 3 ppl to raid these "high level" areas.

[MjukisDjur]

You would have the group spells.
And a handful of players got way to many mc5 chips anyway.
It would put you on the level as the rest of us :p

Edit:
YES, it would be good if it would take more than 2 people to clear the toughest areas in the game!

[Richard Slade]

Anyone who wants to go mc5, doy bots/storms/etc, worm tunnels, doy tunnels or any other high level dungeon with S/D selfcast only, raise a hand.

S/D at selfcast only would require a redesign of all high level mobs. They would have to be toned down to a degree when it's not funny anymore.
Can people please think outside of the PvP box?

Get a proper con setup and som skills
I took down Percys solo as a spy when I was into rifles.
And tanks should be able to stand quite a beating
so goes for PE's too with their spells

Think outside the solobox dude

[phunqe]

Get a proper con setup and som skills
I took down Percys solo as a spy when I was into rifles.
And tanks should be able to stand quite a beating
so goes for PE's too with their spells

Think outside the solobox dude

Read what I write next time... I solo grims, percys and doy bots on melee, rifle and apu (I shouldn't have written doy bots btw).

What I'm taking about is dungeons.
Please, by all means. Do the worm tunnels, doy tunnels or mc5 solo.

Also, you cannot use group spells in a dungeon. Do you want to shelter the mobs as well?

[Richard Slade]

Read what I write next time... I solo grims, percys and doy bots on melee, rifle and apu (I shouldn't have written doy bots btw).

What I'm taking about is dungeons.
Please, by all means. Do the worm tunnels or mc5 solo.

Also, you cannot use group spells in a dungeon. Do you want to shelter the mobs as well?

Once again: Think outside the solobox
And get friends,
it helps, promise.

[phunqe]

Once again: Think outside the solobox
And get friends,
it helps, promise.

Ok, I'll get some of my fellow tank friends and go to mc5, and later we'll try all levels of the doy tunnels.
Also, maybe we should try the worm tunnels, go all the way in.

[MjukisDjur]

It should be impossible to buff a mob what so ever... (well except for damageboost)

[Clyde]

ya S/D and Heal should be self cast and group heal sanctrum should stay the same as it is now

[Ozambabbaz]

sweet mother of god, yes, i think i could talk to ppus without offering them free loms if that happens =D

[phunqe]

If you disable the ability to buff mobs, then by all means.. try out selfcast S/D only and have group or sanctum spells only :)

[Ryuben]

Once again: Think outside the solobox
And get friends,
it helps, promise.


wtf stop flameing a guy for a valid point.

There is no way in hell you could kill MC5 with out PPU support if S/D /H was self cast only and the only way to use such spells was group buffs

Point A) Tbh to cap group shelta u have to gimp your self with 186? ppu (pool 306?) and u won't cap group heal, oh but the thing about group spells is they care cast on the mobs too, so thats not a good idea.

Point B) Group's give less defence then normal shelta hence PPUs = more uber, includes healing powers too

Point C) Sanc's give even less defence then group spells, includes healing powers too.

Come on make a valid point to counter that plz

[msdong]

...Also, you cannot use group spells in a dungeon. Do you want to shelter the mobs as well?

the last time i used group spells the range of them wasnt that great. :wtf:

only shelter sanktums are not that usefull when you go in close combat for damage boost.


....Come on make a valid point to counter that plz

nobody wants to counter that. its the point of that thread :rolleyes:

[Ozambabbaz]

Come on make a valid point to counter that plz

erhm... that it would actually take skill to play?

[Benjie]

This would make the game seriously fun!
I'm sure KK could balance out PvM afterwards.

5 stars.

[phunqe]

the last time i used group spells the range of them wasnt that great. :wtf:

Last time I checked I got about 100 metres on my group shelter and even more on the deflector group. That was a while ago however, haven't used them in a long time.

I know it would probably work eventually, when people has adjusted and certain content tweaked, but I'm trying to make a rebuttal point.

[Maarten]

The range noted in the details of the group spells doesn't mean anything! It's not like everyone in the radius of a 100 meters would get a S/D. That would be way too much. The actual range is like 10m or something. And all group spells can be perfectly used while caving. Just don't go yell for buffs when you're hugging the mobs...

And I say make S/D self-cast only but not the heal.

[shaKa le vrai]

I don't think making S/D self-cast is the solution i'd rather see a 50-65% foreign cast heal.

[Lethys]

I don't think making S/D self-cast is the solution i'd rather see a 50-65% foreign cast heal.

AND the effect of Heal is reduced when the healed runner is moving.

[ino]

OMG Dooh! Richard :)

get a good con and some skills and then go with you rifle spy to lats say ceres mine, shoot a commander y replicant one time and just watch your self die.. cause they hit you over a zone and they get aggro even if you are far away. Same with insert *. class here except maby ppu's.

get your good con and your mad skills and take you spy to mc5 with the current dmg and go get som mc5 imps :) you'll die before your body gets through the zone.

forgot the whole pointer. A chaser/persecutor is NOT like them badass mobs.

[funkeymonkey]

Im a ppu and it doesnt bother me, cant remeber the last time i got noob buffed.

So i vote keep it as it is.

[evs]

If the changes asked here are done, then MC5 could easily be toned down (not the enemies health but the damage done) so it is 'do-able'

the only reason that stuff like mc5 was given super duper damage is because of how effective foriegn cast shelters/heals are

[Clownst0pper]

Are you being serious?

All you saying yes yes, self cast only.

Just think of the implications, OP wars would last seconds, hunting would be impossible, Mc5 would be impossible.

And really, why should it be self cast only, Ive yet to see an argument. To fuck over the pure monks and make PPU's useless?

To cut OP wars down to seconds worth of fighting?

There are no positives to such a silly idea

[MjukisDjur]

For once it would make it worth having a CON Setup and skill. OP wars dont live and die with S/D

[ino]

One thing folks needs to thinkabout when saying they want selfcast shelter and def. and then they say tone down the mobs, yeah thats no problem it could work so that its hard enough but doable with small breaks where the heal heals you. But you have the problem of ppu's not being able to die vs any of the mobs in this game ever cause the dmg they do to them is like 1 per burst cause they have shelters and def of the higher lvl.

Thoose shelters and defs are needed to keep the ppu alive in real pvp fights where the dmg will be greater. a ppu without any buffs doesnt take that long to whipe off you boot.. arround the same time it takes to slaughter a apu wich is in like 5 seconds if you hit him with something that hurts... The balance of foreign cast and mobs today is kind of what you can expect.. Team mates vs a great dmg dealing mob has a hard time, and the ppu can aswell if there are multiple targets shooting at the same time.

Lower the dmg so foreign cast isnt nessecary and it will balance the un holy sheltered ppl but overpower the ppu in pvm.

[Clownst0pper]

For once it would make it worth having a CON Setup and skill. OP wars dont live and die with S/D

A person with a con setup + Holy S/D will last longer than someone without a good con setup.

And it stands the same when neither has S/D, the player with a con setup is always going to last longer.

SO why is it you think no one has con setups? And yes, OP wars are 110% dependant on S/D.

4 hits from an APU's HL without a holy shelter and I gaurentee you are fucked over before the tanks even reach inside the OP to finish you off. (from distance)

Stupidest idea ive ever heard, hated it then, hated it now.

Balance PPU's, Dont ruin the game, all you voting and saying 5 stars, why dont you take time out, and not use a shelter and deflector for a week, I gaurentee NC OP wars arent playable, nor are they fun.

[MjukisDjur]

Actually, remove ppu is the worst idea. Not making S/D selfcast :P

And group spells are still there. Clownstopper you are just in a bad mood.
Have some lunch and come back and post positive things :angel:

[Noodle]

i like how the people say get some skill to use group spells, try casting a group shelter in mc5 where u cannot get distance from mobs.... wow, now u have 5+ 120/120 copbot strength mobs with shelter on them.... excellent....
and dont go, OMG WTF USE FORCEE! cuz aoe is teh win in there, and the only force aoe is the moonstriker, which kills urself more then the mobs, so u would need a deflector also, and guess what happens then :rolleyes: .

however, if the mob dmg were toned down as some ppl suggest, it might be possible to get self cast SD (not heal)

[Clownst0pper]

Actually, remove ppu is the worst idea. Not making S/D selfcast :P

And group spells are still there. Clownstopper you are just in a bad mood.
Have some lunch and come back and post positive things :angel:

If your wanting group cast shelters, and S/D selfcast only, WTF is the point?! :confused:

I know loads of people who cap group shelters, and really, if they do cap them the difference between the single shelter and groups, isnt even noticeable.

[ichinin]

Bra eller anus?

Anus, make it so that if a friendly buff you (team/clan) it will override any buffs cast by others. Including CSTR/SPY/SUP boost.

[MjukisDjur]

But it would make it harder for PPU:s to be as effective.

[Noodle]

But it would make it harder for PPU:s to be as effective.

it would make it harder for ppus to buff midfight yes, but they will be just as effective.

[MjukisDjur]

Um meant that. Thanks noodle :P

See it like this you op people that must have 2 minute godmode:
Group s/d ppu in UG. Buffs running out, runner goes down in UG, buffs,up again.

Its just a minor adjustment for op battles.
For mc5 etc it must be changed so mobs dont pickup buffs.

The difference this change will make is not the end of the world.

[Ascension]

Okay i havent read the last 3 pages, but:

Having self cast eliminates the PPU's and fucks the APU's heh! :o
unless you stated that we 'APU's' are able to spec PPU and not be gimped, sorry i just woke up lol!

ill go re-read the posts

[Agent L]

No way, S/D is what is perfectly OK, it is Holy Outheal that is overpowered. I mean HH should restore same amount of HP in very much longer time.
And self/foreign casting has nothing to do here. Look at ppu-based hybrids.

[msdong]

its the end of melee tanks running into a group of chaos soldiers and scream SDH.



The difference this change will make is not the end of the world.

[hinch]

:rolleyes: :wtf: :rolleyes: :wtf: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

the above smilies represent my feelings towards anyone that says make any spell self cast only.

[Dribble Joy]

S/D yes, heal no.

Mob dmg, mob hp and PvP dmg can and has been changed, and in the past was changd due to the effect PPUs had.
So any argument about mc5, caves or OP fights is irrelevant.

The thread starter didn't point out WHY S/D should be self cast.

Firstly it is to balance the combat classes.

Lets consider a PE and a Tank. Self buffed.
Now, aside from a few specific weapons, they are pretty much balanced with each other.
A PE gains the same protection from his/her self cast shelter as a foreign casted holy shelter, so in getting a PPU buff they gain absolutly nothing.
Whereas the tank now has the equivalent of a PE self cast shelter. In the case of deflectors the PE (if using blessed def) is actually WORSE off with a ppu buff.
The two classes are thus unbalanced.

The same is true for tanks and apus (though to a smaller degree), the proportional defensive gain is not the same (the difference was larger before the recent accidental tank dmg boost).

It's all about defence/offence ratio, PPUs fuck it up.

Also, without having to shield everyone, the PPUs have more time to concentrate on healing, DBing and buffing.

[Richard Slade]

But you don't mention spy? :wtf:

[funkeymonkey]

It would make being a ppu pointless if u cant heal s/d a fighter in an op war, would rather have an extra tank fighting by my side. What would be the role of ppus at op wars? Run around and stare at the enemy? Buff your enemy along with your fighters with group buffs?

Oh and apu's wouldnt be viable at op wars either. Would make my main chars pointless playing.

[athon]

So let me guess this straight...

you want to make S/D/heal self-cast only
...but then you want everything else in the game to be toned down to compensate
...and you accuse KK of using sledgehammer tactics

Why not just leave it as it is now?

Athon Solo

[msdong]

...but then you want everything else in the game to be toned down to compensate...

hmm, dont think so. the 120/120 of a mob means nothing.
at the moment a usual player can fight 3 mobs of his own rang and solo most of the 120/120(some even more). only in caves when there are 2 much of them or they use indirect fire weapons they are hard.

mc5 is hard because of indirect fire.
doy tunnels are hard because of resists.
worm tunnels? hard because of the water.
chaos cave? takin a lolli from a baby with PPU. having a FUN hard time without.
swamp caves? PPU :o, never see any group without

[enigma_b17]

"hmm, dont think so. the 120/120 of a mob means nothing.
at the moment a usual player can fight 3 mobs of his own rang and solo most of the 120/120(some even more). only in caves when there are 2 much of them or they use indirect fire weapons they are hard."

a player can survive by taking cover. Otherwise theyr dead, with the exception of possibly a tank, but even a tank gets taken down quick by grim chasers. Which is the way it should be, 90% of ppl who face a 120/120 mob solo out in the open with no cover would be dead quite quickly

[ino]

Well if you can take on all the mobs alone increase the dmg of chasers and persus by 10?..

It's true the 120/120 on the mobs today isnt atall reflecting on how much dmg they do.
But I think there are outdoor mobs mostly that are a littlebit easier to handle cause you dont need a ppu/group to take on a chaser. Cave mobs or whatever we are going to call them is a --->!GROUP!<--- place to lvl.. group places should be harder than the soloable mobs, and to have a ppu to help you survive is pretty nice there. And making cave mobs easy enough to do without ppu's would frankly make the caves pretty damn boring and too easy, some cave mobs are a little easy as it is now with a group and a ppu but with the discussions going about not have s/d/heal increasing the dmg and ai maby on them isnt an option.

[Mr_Snow]

Yeah make shelter deflector self-cast only and remove group buffs.

PvP revolves around PPUs and it shouldnt, it should revolve around combat classes so making it that ppus only have to heal and cast longs every 10 minutes means there is less need for them at op wars.

PvM can always be adjusted down and its been adjusted up because of the stupidly strong buffs that PPUs give.

Of course it needs to be tested to make sure it doesnt completely fuck up the game but in theory it shouldnt.

[Ozambabbaz]

the PPU is a class which can be used to render every pure combat class with the exception of SH spies/pees and apus totally useless! in a game that evolves around player vs player combat. something has to be done about it.

[QuantumDelta]

S/D seflcast.
Nuff said.

[athon]

the PPU is a class which can be used to render every pure combat class with the exception of SH spies/pees and apus totally useless! in a game that evolves around player vs player combat. something has to be done about it.
You forgot droners.

Which leaves pistoliers and tanks - that's not as much as you seem to be making it out be.

Athon Solo

[Disturbed021]

I've liked this idea for a long time. S/D selfcast only.

Would improve the PEs and shelter spies effectiveness in OP wars, besides PPUs they'd be the only ones with shelters on.
It would increase the amount of fights. How many times have you heard ppl asking for a PPU? TBH, the OP wars where 3 PPUs on their side with only 1 on ours makes me just want to /kill self.

PPUs would still have a role altho it would decrease their need (which is the whole fricken point I might add). They would still provide rezzes, heals, primary boosters, DB and para.

2 arguements against S/D selfcast only are irrelevant.

1. Mob damage is too high w/o a PPU. Yes it would need to be reduced, in fact it was only raised BECAUSE of the PPU buffs being soooo great.

2. Battles would be too quick w/o PPU buffs.
A. Weapons damage can be reduced slightly across the board to even this out....probably very easily.
B. ppl have become way too dependant on PPU buffs and get slaughtered when they don't have them on. Players need to adapt and be more self-reliant.

[Ozambabbaz]

You forgot droners.

Which leaves pistoliers and tanks - that's not as much as you seem to be making it out be.

Athon Solo

and rifle PEs and rifle spies who do not have the not-dropping spirit mod and vehicle PEs and vehicle spies and melee users.

I admit droners got some cool drones, but unless the PPU is caught out in the open in a zone without cover, not much is happening.

6 variants for the PE, only 1 can take down a PPU, and thats with uber endgame equipment, one of which isnt dropping.

Spies got 4 variants, only 1 usable, still with a non-dropping mod.

Tanks got 5 variants, none appliable.

otherwise it takes 2-4 to take 1 down, i still believe i'm not making it a bigger issue than in already is

[landofcake]

I think it's a good idea, but it would leave APU's in a really bad spot ... seeing as they would have little to no protection.

[Ozambabbaz]

I think it's a good idea, but it would leave APU's in a really bad spot ... seeing as they would have little to no protection.

i thought APUs were balanced with high offence, low defence?

[Kaden]

No.

This post is too short.

[der Ed]

Single S/D selfcast only, Sanctums and Groupspells like they exist now.

[Kaden]

:rolleyes: :wtf: :rolleyes: :wtf: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

the above smilies represent my feelings towards anyone that says make any spell self cast only.


Yup i concur.

[Mr Friendly]

it would simply require more them 3 ppl to raid these "high level" areas.

lol, sure - u try 3 people against 40+ doy soldiers in the tunnels with what, a PE shelter at best & tanks with no shelt?

[Mr_Snow]

I wish KK would even just test this idea to see if it works, if it doesnt they can just re-patch the test server to make them foreign castable again, but somehow I doubt they will bother.

[Dribble Joy]

lol, sure - u try 3 people against 40+ doy soldiers in the tunnels with what, a PE shelter at best & tanks with no shelt?
For the love of beer, think man.
CONCEPT.

I have said this about 5 times today, mob dmg and hp can and has been changed drastically.


Single S/D selfcast only, Sanctums and Groupspells like they exist now.
What would be the point?
The whole idea behind this concept is to stop part of the imbalance foreign shields bring to pvp and reduce the dpendance on PPUs.

[2ply]

For how long I've suggested this...

It's a great idea(imo) and would work great. Just keep heals the same(PPUs are still a good thing to have, but not NEEDED) and tone down mob dmg.

Or tone down S/D/Heal but keep self-casted the same.

Either would work decent.

[RayBob]

I can’t believe that anybody thinks this is a good idea. Have you ever seen 2 APUs duel? It last a matter of seconds! Without shields, people will be dropping like flies and the average OP fight will last a few minutes. There is no way a PPU will be able to keep a heal all of his team considering how fast they will be taking damage. And this will make having a PPU glued to each fighter’s ass even MORE important. Ridiculous idea.

[QuantumDelta]

DJ ...people are too blind, too stupid, it's not worth trying.
KK would never be able to fine tune it anyway -_-;

[[TgR]KILLER]

din't read the whole thread.. just the first few reply's so might be saying stuff thats been said loads but hell..

imho s/d should be selfcast only. would meen ppu's got even more spells to take along.. ( i always hated to carry spells in inv :p ) so the PPU prob does a step down in fights.. but wouldn't matter that much for me.. nor for the clan realy.. since we don't even have a good ppu so we buff ourselfs.. i always do that pretty much since i'm a PE.. but our enemy's got a PPU on their nuts most of the time.. if not paraing everybody in like PP their just outside waiting to buff people.. don't matter alot for the heal.. wouldn't mind that being not self cast. or like somebody said i think it was richard ( on first page ) take it down to a % of its full healage.

but making S/D self cast works for me. won't harm the hybrids. and you can still be buffed with group spells.. also pretty much kills the noob shelter / deffing.. unless you want to noob buff your own team to.. :) a good ppu or PE pretty much keeps himself buffed all the time in combat tho. and you don't see s/d running out that fast so noob buffing is kinda harder then healing imho.

[der Ed]

The whole idea behind this concept is to stop part of the imbalance foreign shields bring to pvp and reduce the dpendance on PPUs.

As I proposed it, S/D are still usable, but as soon as they stop working it get's complicated: Sanctums and Groupspells are difficult to use (you could accidentally help your enemies). Chars that can cast S/D on their own will profit from the new gained independance, other chars need more discipline to get it cast on them.

My proposal allows mob bashing with shields (yes, I know, mobs can get tuned, but it's still nice to have a shield, and IMHO a PPU should be a group enhancer, but not like now), it allows a large group to enter/ expect combat prepared and it requires a good strategical use of the groupspells (buffstations etc). But it also changes the inbalance in PvP with the reasons I stated above.