View Full Version : A Proposition for NC2: From the Players to KK
I think we've all noticed the huge amount of worry about a possible item/cash wipe for Neocron 2. What's making everyone even more worried is that KK hasn't responded to anything. I think it's time the player base, the ones keeping this game alive for so long, took matters into their own hands.
I don't want to lose ANYTHING I've worked so hard for since December 25th, 2002, but I have slowly come to realize that our current situations on all servers are nothing that newbies would want to come into.
I have come to realize that something needs to be done. I think quite a large sum of people realize this too, but think an item/cash wipe is too drastic.
The Purpose of this is to look for possible suggestions and/or solutions
We need to start making compromises, a middle ground.
I believe the best way to go about that is to agree first that we have a problem right now, as far as the economy goes, and find ways to fix it, without wiping everyone to the floor.
Please post any suggestions/alternatives to completely wiping money/items you might have, and rate this thread 5 stars so that KK might look at it.
Thanks for reading.
I hate having to own Item A to buy Item B. The whole point of currency is that it is universal, more sophisticated and developed than simple barter. The flawed economy is one of Neocrons most drastic bugs, and needs fixing for Neocron 2 otherwise you may aswell call it "Titanicron 2".
{MD}GeistDamnit
29-07-04, 06:02
I dont want to see an item wipe, I never cheated to get anything, and worked hard for all the stuff I got. I'm not happy that some players have an advantage, but they do now allready, why not wipe all items now if they gonna do it? It just dosen't make sence. I never heard one KK emplyee talk about a wipe, this shit rumor just floated out of thin air or the sick minds of whoever wants something like this. It's a good way to get an agenda going IMO your all falling into whoever concocted this rumor up's hands.
I doubt there will be an item wipe but if there is I'm not gonna stick around. There will allways be people that cheat and shit, better to get rid of the cheats first which KK did not do, so why do I a paying customer have to pay for their mistakes? I'm pretty sure if they thought it was so unbalenced they would do an item wipe now in stead of later for doy.
The NC economy is borked to the point that it's REALLY frustrating.
The only way to secure any descent gear is by bartering (and if you need rares, and don't have any, good luck!) or OBSCNENE amounts of cash: 6 million for a 3-slot CS, 20 million for an MC-5 SA chip, or more. Most often people won't sell for cash at all.
the biggest problem in my opinion is too many NPC vendors for all levels of gear, a total lack of a responsive economy (IE supply and demand doesn't hold whatsoever, I can sell 4000 APCs at the same unit price as one, and offloading thousands of APCs in the same place doesn't reduce the price due to oversupply) and 4-char servers.
I would like to see supply-demand simulation on at least a basic level, and an advanced economy would be a lot of fun for tradeskiller types.
If KK does a complete item and cash wipe, the economy will remain balanced for 3 or so days, for as long as it takes the big clans to do enough missions to buy a 150 cons tool, a 150 res tool and lube, then it's back to inflation city. a limited-circulation system would slow down inflation to the level where cash sinks could control it.
<<NOTE: This is my opinion based on experiance in other MMOs, an econ 101 class in high school and some logic, if anyone with more economic knowladge wants to debate these ideas, I'm open for it>>
i don't know about other servers economy, but saturn is f*ckd :)
And one certain player f*ckd it up some more ...
Shadow Dancer
29-07-04, 06:21
I think their should be a partial item wipe. I honestly don't see the need for a COMPLETE 100% wipe of all items/cash. What's wrong with letting us keep a few trinkets?
Or wipe all items and give us 2 free months, :p.
Or wipe all items and give us 2 free months, :p.
Sounds nice :p
Well, I don't like the idea, but im cool with it as long there is no char wipe. :(
If they tell us there is going to be a item wipe, then we will stop playing.
If they tell us that they are going to wipe everything but NPC puracheable items, then we will stop trading rares.
If they tell us nothing will be wiped then we will be happy and continue, but they haven't -- thats what im worried about.
I think either way we loose O_o
Nothing wrong with the economies. They're all in an end-game state. Too much cash, not enough parts to go around due to lack of hunting. We're down to bartering valuables for valuables since it's the items, not the cash, that drive the game.
An influx of new players will increase the number of rareparts being farmed, decreasing their worth. This will cause money to be used again as a medium of exchange. BDOY also brings items that can only be bought. That'll help as well.
Wipe now, wipe later, it doesn't matter if the root cause of runaway economy isn't fixed.
At one point I "think" someone official mentioned having NC and NC2 servers (at the time it was BDOY servers).
If this is how it goes down then, based on the fact that NC2 has a way to track items, if someone chooses to go to the NC2 servers all their stuff and money should be wiped (or at least give those with pre-existing accounts something like 100k), and their skills reset as was done with the monks at one point.
Anyone with database experience can call me on this but i would think having the DB build up from scratch would make it more stable rather than say everyone from saturn bringing all their stuff to the new server.
Voted the first one. I'm all for wiping it all. Tired of explainin why.
At one point I "think" someone official mentioned having NC and NC2 servers (at the time it was BDOY servers).
If this is how it goes down then, based on the fact that NC2 has a way to track items, if someone chooses to go to the NC2 servers all their stuff and money should be wiped (or at least give those with pre-existing accounts something like 100k), and their skills reset as was done with the monks at one point.
Anyone with database experience can call me on this but i would think having the DB build up from scratch would make it more stable rather than say everyone from saturn bringing all their stuff to the new server.
MJS said at one point that there will be a "classic" NC server and the normal 5 servers as BDoY servers. That means all servers will automatically be transferred into BDoY while there will be a fresh classic NC server where you can play "NC1". I guess it's so you have something to do while you wait for NC2 to load or arrive or whatever.
eric-the-ded
29-07-04, 07:33
i wouldn't cry if there was a wipe.
especially after seeing what it's like starting fresh on a server full of high level rich people. wanna buy a low end rare? don't even think about it unless you have at least 6 million credits. wanna sell a non-rare? not gonna happen.
Quote "Well, I don't like the idea, but im cool with it as long there is no char wipe.
If they tell us there is going to be a item wipe, then we will stop playing."
____________________________________________________________
If you stop playing you will start playing another game, right?
So in the new game you will be playing, you will have to start from scratch, right?
and
1. There is no new game that is like NC or NC2!
2. Having played NC1 you will already have advantages because you know how things work and will be much quicker being able to level a new char
3. How can they start a new game having people running around that are Level 70? and who have their cabinets full of rares and 30 mil in the bank? How fair would that be to any newcomer?
They won't wipe anything, you can continue playing NC1 whilst most people will start playing NC2
based on the fact that NC2 has a way to track itemsWhere have they said NC2 would have item tracking? We all want it to, but I don't recall any KK people saying it would.
I would still like to see what I mentioned a while back on happen, a new server where everyone starts from scratch and the other servers that kk have already said would be implemented where you can transfer your chars across.
This way both sets of people would be happy. I personally would like to see a server where everyone started again and there wasn't already a load of rares and other things out there.
we DON'T need a wipe, what we need is something even more drastic
add a variable economy to prevent overselling of items and restrict influx of cash.
add new content and rares with bDoY to make existing equipment a step down from the best, requiring people to once again start aqquiring items (removing the 'I have everything I could ever need, so why shouldn't I piss away 20 mil and a few dozen rares on an arti spirit SH with a laserpointer)
also adding content that you cannot buy is a good thing. Other MMORPGs have the right idea... non-transferable items that are REALLY good. for example, a weapon that is almost as good as a CS (maybe slightly less for balance) and is no-drop no-sell and requires an INTENSE quest/epic set. Neocron has no equivilent of the Wartexx Ultima (from Adventurequest) or the Maldorian Armor from SWG,
again, sorry to mention SWG doing something right (I HATED THAT GAME, more buggy and laggy than saturn on a bad day, boring as all fuck, a whiny, snivling playerbase that can't take any contradiction to their precious little RP fantasy) but the Maldorian quest is the ultimate example of how an MMO quest for a high-level item should go, it requires not only combat skills, but tradeskills and a lot of persistant experiance, as well as skilled players,
Boost the power on the Termi twofold and make the epic a real bitch that STARTS in MC-5 (not the newb one) and you're on the right track, add an item like it for every class, some new armor (drop only) make rares decay faster (so you haveto get new ones more often) and we have the start to a solution to the "I have everything I could ever want so why not piss it away or twink it to my new characters" problem
add more money sinks to keep players from getting too much cash, and to compensate give newbs more cash to start with, so they can actually afford OK gear to begin their career. In addition add upkeep costs to the things that advanced clans and players need (IE apartment rent) so that storing large amounts of crap is more trouble than it's worth for most things, reward collectors with a 'museum apartment' for their collections, which doesn't cost as much, but has restrictions on taking the items out to use...
that's just my ideas for fixing a borked economy without resorting to taking everyones stuff away (and pissing everyone off without solving the problem) and keeping it fixed
Richard Slade
29-07-04, 09:13
In a short moment of clarity I just realized what we need to do:
Think as noobs,
what do you think an army of say..500 noobs, really want to see in their new cool NC2 trial?
A helluvalotta capped chars that already have it all
or someone on their level that might even level with them, grow up with them
show them around..?
EDIT: And yes, KK needs to fix the situation with rares and droprates and money
Yet again you idiots go running to KK to fix the economy - but who's fault is it? Do KK set the prices that players sell and buy stuff to/from each other at? NO!
Only the players can fix the economy.
If there was a wipe - of any kind - it wouldn't fix the problem. Why? Because only a change in player attitudes can fix the economy.
At the moment I am happy with the situation. MC5 chips aren't essential - oh sure it would be nice to have one, but it's not essential - I've already worked out a number of different set-ups for my characters - none of them involve MC5 chips and all the setups - IMO - are good ones.
The Spirit mod isn't essential for my sniper. It sure as hell would be nice to have one, but I can still do serious damage to the opposition at ops wars without one.
IMO the situation is fine at the moment.
Public trading prices may be extortionate - so what do I do? I don't trade publicly.
Only a change in player atttitudes can fix the economy. A wipe of any kind will not fix it.
Athon Solo
Richard Slade
29-07-04, 10:34
Only players can fix it?
Right-o
So take someone with about 250million bucks
Get him to try to sell a MC5 part for a fair price
Or do it the other way around
You got one MC5 part, and a guy with 250 million bucks wants it...
Will he try to haggle for 500k, or just cough up 5million bucks?
You do the maths,
the economy is borked and players are in no way capable of fixing it without a wipe and remake on drop tables and money gain
Tip to KK: Fix the APC selling price :p
[ edited ] KK needs to fix the economy because they where the ones who let it get fucked up, leaving easy money exploits in.
A wipe of any kind would only be a short term fix. You would soon - probably within a month - get people who save vast amounts of cash to buy things at extortionate prices again.
I repeat: Only a change in player attitudes can fix the economy.
Athon Solo
Clownst0pper
29-07-04, 10:38
Must we repeat ourselves?
A wipe will fix things in the short term slade, give it a week and you can gaurentee that I, along side everything else have what theyve always had, including the new items.
As it stands, with player shops being introduced it will set a price as players can go to stores, see tech parts for sale, or Mc5 parts for sale, and choose the cheapest dealer, if those asking stupid prices keep there prices that way, there really not going to get any sales now are they?
Richard Slade
29-07-04, 10:39
A wipe of any kind would only be a short term fix. You would soon - probably within a month - get people who save vast amounts of cash to buy things at extortionate prices again.
I repeat: Only a change in player attitudes can fix the economy.
Athon Solo
And I quote:
the economy is borked and players are in no way capable of fixing it without a wipe and remake on drop tables and money gain
Accept the fact
..but I have slowly come to realize that our current situations on all servers are nothing that newbies would want to come into.
I will most likely create a total noob char in NC2 - if i still can hunt rareparts with a sniperrifle, a hacktool and some common sense, i will do that, did it on uranus to the point when i got bored. If that is destroying somebodys precious economy, i dont give a crap.
A wipe of any kind would only be a short term fix. You would soon - probably within a month - get people who save vast amounts of cash to buy things at extortionate prices again.
I repeat: Only a change in player attitudes can fix the economy.
Athon Solo
I agree
I would still like to see what I mentioned a while back on happen, a new server where everyone starts from scratch and the other servers that kk have already said would be implemented where you can transfer your chars across.
This way both sets of people would be happy. I personally would like to see a server where everyone started again and there wasn't already a load of rares and other things out there.I agree, however...
...what do you think an army of say..500 noobs, really want to see in their new cool NC2 trial? A helluvalotta capped chars that already have it all or someone on their level that might even level with them, grow up with them show them around..?I think the vast majority of the new players will choose the new server and you would end up with a whole bunch of sparsely populated servers with veterans admiring their vast collections.
The NC economy is borked to the point that it's REALLY frustrating.
The only way to secure any descent gear is by bartering (and if you need rares, and don't have any, good luck!) or OBSCNENE amounts of cash: 6 million for a 3-slot CS, 20 million for an MC-5 SA chip, or more. Most often people won't sell for cash at all.
the biggest problem in my opinion is too many NPC vendors for all levels of gear, a total lack of a responsive economy (IE supply and demand doesn't hold whatsoever, I can sell 4000 APCs at the same unit price as one, and offloading thousands of APCs in the same place doesn't reduce the price due to oversupply) and 4-char servers.
I would like to see supply-demand simulation on at least a basic level, and an advanced economy would be a lot of fun for tradeskiller types.
If KK does a complete item and cash wipe, the economy will remain balanced for 3 or so days, for as long as it takes the big clans to do enough missions to buy a 150 cons tool, a 150 res tool and lube, then it's back to inflation city. a limited-circulation system would slow down inflation to the level where cash sinks could control it.
<<NOTE: This is my opinion based on experiance in other MMOs, an econ 101 class in high school and some logic, if anyone with more economic knowladge wants to debate these ideas, I'm open for it>>
I don't really know where supply and demand has really worked when it's controlled by the game. Given how trendy people can be you could theoretically bomb the market with items. IRL there are many more external market factors that come into play. I do agree on that you shouldn't be able to sell 4000 APCs at the same price, but you'd be crazy to build that many so you've probably earned it. :lol:
As for rares i'm not sure I agree with you there...
My two friends and I started back in this game about 3 weeks ago after a very long haitus and we now have over 400 parts and have been VERY sucessful in bartering for parts we need. I'm fairly sure this is the way rares were meant to be.
I read an interesting article on the parralells of game economies and the real world, which would apply really well here if I ever find it.
I would suggest at this point to:
-Reduce the gain that crafters have selling items back to the stores and make people rely more on crafting for good items, and that may be the case with player stores.
-Scale GR prices so that the higher level you are the higher the price.
-Increase money given by missions greatly and reduce money given by killing mobs. (Then maybe monks will lvl dex on missions and not complain O_o ).
And other stuff I can't think of right now...
EDIT: Perhaps the two cities can impose taxes on players who have rares (i.e. property tax) or rareparts. The more you stash - the more you pay.
EDIT: Found it! Although most doesn't apply it is a very good read and insightful.
http://games.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/05/18/1150251&tid=209&tid=98&tid=10
Direct link to article:
http://www.walrusmagazine.com/04/05/06/1929205.shtml
Dirk_Gently
30-07-04, 04:29
I have posted before on this but to cut a long story short there should be x billion nc in the economy which does not increase unless absolutely necessary. It just goes round in circles. If necessary levy bank charges on players with too much inactive cash. (Shares on the Stockx count as active)
It doesn't matter at all that players have 30 million nc and a load of rares going into NC2 it will merely ensure that the economy functions at the most basic level during the first few months. If anything it's a good thing.
Edit@Slade: Go find an Economics textbook and read the following chapters:
Money Supply
Inflation,
Supply & Demand.
Then you will understand that what is happening in NC is what is always going to happen unless the amount of cash in the system is capped.
A wipe will do nothing for the structural problems of the economy, what we have now will rapidly occur again. If they fix the economy and do a wipe they will totally bugger the entire game as there will be no stores of value in the game. kk need to cap the amount of cash in the economy and leave inventories as they are. As things stand we have a large store of uncapitalised wealth, a money cap will force it to be capitalised and contract demand, this will solve all problems.
Dirk_Gently
30-07-04, 04:39
In a short moment of clarity I just realized what we need to do:
Think as noobs,
what do you think an army of say..500 noobs, really want to see in their new cool NC2 trial?
A helluvalotta capped chars that already have it all
or someone on their level that might even level with them, grow up with them
show them around..?
The game will suck without any capped players, everybody will be in the same levelling areas getting in each others way, and frankly the storyline will fold "Oh we aren't fighting the war atm because noone is high level enough to do it".
If you believe that existing NC players would do anything other than get their old mates/clan back together and start afresh, utterly ignoring the noobs (who are going to be along way behind us all in terms of knowledge of how to play NC-and thus when we are trying to level a pain in the ass) then you are badly mistaken.
As a capped character who doesn't realistically need to do anything other than build my clan and fight clan/OP wars I can advise/greet the new players, without damaging my game. Which is good for the game.
Edit: I played SWG on one of the Europe servers right at the begining and it was absolutely horendous because there was hardly anybody there who could make you equipment, so it was ludicrously expensive. (Back to supply and demand) The start of any MMORPG is absolutely horrible untill the economy is established.
eric-the-ded
30-07-04, 05:36
here's what i propose. it'll work too. trust me.
reintroduce cash cubes. reintroduce the infamous dupe bug. BUT. make it so the dupe only works when you're bank account is under 10 million.
BAM! everybody's rich. even the neeewbs.
Dirk_Gently
30-07-04, 05:42
here's what i propose. it'll work too. trust me.
reintroduce cash cubes. reintroduce the infamous dupe bug. BUT. make it so the dupe only works when you're bank account is under 10 million.
BAM! everybody's rich. even the neeewbs.
Then devalue the currency and voila problem solved. :D
Nice idea.
Edit: The other solution would be to devalue the currency every 4 months by a factor of between 10 and 100. It may make the economy more stable in the long run but would be hellish confusing.
Let me keep what imps i have in and a gogo of items and I'd be happy.
Wipe the rest, kill my cash... i don't care but i don't wonna have to get an Mc5 chip ever again in my life until MC5 is fun. If mc5 was fun the whole server wouldn't keep looking how to exploit it.
well my view is this i dont think we should have a complete item whipe it would course to many players to leave and many worked hard for their stuff
ppus with all many slotted spells MC5s etc
But i dont see any reason either that peops should have 5 MC5 chips lying around their appartement and multiple rares etc
im with sd on this partial item whipe
give us the chips imps we got in and a couple trinkets
If mc5 was fun the whole server wouldn't keep looking how to exploit it
lol there are peops who will ALWAYS try to find the easy way and try to exploit no matter how fun it is its called lazy
The Ottoman
30-07-04, 13:22
As it stands, with player shops being introduced it will set a price as players can go to stores, see tech parts for sale, or Mc5 parts for sale, and choose the cheapest dealer, if those asking stupid prices keep there prices that way, there really not going to get any sales now are they?
This is exactly what I'm hoping for. Add to this fixed(pricecap) prices of all items(even rare items). For instance : a 5 slotted CS maximum price 1 million. Somehow this should be monitored. Even when it's a sale from one runner to another. I'm not a coder so I don't know if it's possible.
john irons
30-07-04, 15:18
im not sure if they said this but i think kk are going to
delete a lot of the npc's and with the new mall player market thing this should make the trade side of this game work better and thus the economy, it will change in time as the community sees fit, much as it is in eve
yea i think kk will have a mall sector with player shops in a row and players will have to rent them out.
and the perfect place for this mall you ask?
via rosso behind the biotech hq where the bank used to be.
and i think if they set it so you had to be at the market stall to sell that would make sure that no one could hogg 1 stall forevermore.
im sorry what was the topic again? :confused:
Player-only economies are a double edged sword though:
On one hard they REQUIRE player interaction, especially in one-character environments.
On the other hand, they can be a ROYAL pain in the arse... if no one is on at the time (a big problem with our current server pops) or if a certain item requires a lot of parts, no one ever makes them, therefore you can't get them. I'd hate to see a situation like in some player-only MMOs where you have leveled characters using their starter guns because they can't afford anything better or find a tradeskiller to get a better one. removing NPC vendors would give big tradeskill clans WAY too much advantage over everyone else, as well.
The Ottoman
30-07-04, 17:29
You make the weapons or spells when you're online. Then you give to your shopnpc who sells it for you, you log off. Go drink a beer. Spend some time with your girlfriend. And you shopnpc does all the selling for you.
It is my intention to construct all kinds of weapons (slotted of course). I'm sure others have similar plans too. So almost every demand will be covered. I wont charge a lot for those weapons. So if a TPC has 3 slots i'll charge the normal price + 20K or so per extra slot. Further i still will try to be available for construct jobs when i'm online.
Change drop rules, change the amount of money you get, change barter, make more items, give those items real neccesity (food anyone?), create some form of taxation... Paying for OP's, paying for more members if you're a large clan... It all works the same, reforming drop rules, add more items to purchase to add to diversity, make changing outfits actually cost something (:P), more item sinks, more places to stick money, fix Stock-X.
If those things are done, a wipe wouldn't be neccesary at all, the world as we know it would eventually settle down. A new server, should one ever be started, with these rules would stay healthy and run healthy seeing as it would be full of checks and balances.
Current servers are full of 'checks'... Not a single rule for balance is in sight.
[TgR]KILLER
30-07-04, 21:42
done these threads to much to keep writing.. as i said on our own forum today.
well whiping all items aint a sollution to shit imho.. i got a special relationship with my 3 slot PE i build on my cst PE. and i can't ever get that back since the PE is gone and the whole account is inactive for months. i got a 4 slot PE kurai made in dec 2002 things like that are inreplaceable..
if people would set your house on fire and it would take everything you had with it you wouldn't like it and i feel the same for the stuff i got ingame.
think of it what you want. i worked my ass off for anything i got. and i don't want to lose all the shit. they should get more expencive things out.. get drugs even more expencive and also get the ways of making them cheap more expencive.. like some guys in the clan are just making batches of drugs since they just take like 1 chem. almost everybody uses drugs and they don't want to lose that so make em pay.. also the new houses and stuff need to be hell expencive.. i saved up all my cash and pretty much sold anything exept what i realy needed to get a nice house for doy.. been working on the cash for a few months.. like sod it when i gonna lose everything due a whipe.
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