View Full Version : Brainport - Ammo mod
greendonkeyuk
24-07-04, 20:47
Ok guys short and sweet this one is, due to the thread made by Szorksmok with reference to ppu based hybrids i came up with this idea. An anti heal ammo made specifically for Piercing-based guns. This ammo would fit on all types of piercing weapon above tl75, rare (and i guess non rare also). By that i mean Speedguns Tangent Gatling weapons, Liberator, Wyatt Earp and Pain easer, Terminator et al. I would like it to work with the silent hunter also, ALTHOUGH NOT with spirit modded SH. One mod or the other.
The effect would work in the same way as the drone antiheal hopefully. (please note ive never been a droner but my understanding is that after a time period the heal is removed from the target though the actual shot does not damage the target).
This weapon mod would be designed to combat ppus and those pesky ppu-based hybrids.
As far as i know thats all there is to it. Before flames please note i play a ppu right now but not a hybrid and i dont feel that this is too overpowering as droners already got this tool. The rest of us dont.
How this is implemented into the game (if the idea even makes it that far) i have no control over, i jus wanted to toss it out to the community to see what you guys feel about it. Please advise and suggest improvements where you see them. Please also post imbalances, i posted this because I WANT you all to pick fault where ive missed something. Please leave the whining and bitching about overpowered classes out however, this thread is here to solve them.
Thanks you guys
QuantumDelta
24-07-04, 21:05
Earp.
SH.
MaleD.
Only those, I think... (Rate of Fire issues)
edit;
Actually, make it just that- when using these bullets, your RoF drops to SH current.
didnt we have an anti heal weapon ingame ?
slaughteruall
24-07-04, 22:10
Hell no.
Slaughter
Hell no.
Slaughter
Yes wasn't it is/was the raptor or the other drone?
Unless its changed without me reading...
Mumblyfish
24-07-04, 23:55
Yes wasn't it is/was the raptor or the other drone?
Unless its changed without me reading...
It's now the Mosquito.
Interesting idea, and it would be nice to be able to hurt a capped ppu without a squad of 5:D But how bout, instead of anti-heal bullets, anti-heal grenades? Currently, all grenades and grenade launchers are useless even if you are a new player, so why not have some specialized grenades? I think it'd be awesome to have rare 'nades (buildable like rare drones) that took heal down, or shelter, or, best idea yet, anti-stealth. Ahh but I'm getting way off-topic here. Yeah, this sounds like a good idea to me, and I run two PPUs:)
lol why not just delete the ppu while you're at it?
There are already ways to combat ppus and hybrids, which are very effective.
1. antibuff (takes alot of pool and time to cast, but works)
2. Spirit mod (removes shelter instantly, rare for a reason)
3. "noob buff" tactic (frowned upon but exteremly effective)
4. Repeatdly stacking fire and poison (continuously hurts ppus, especially when shelter drops^^. Its funny to watch them franticly searching for their antidote spell)
5. Lot of force/pierce damage
Bad idea and not necesarry in my opinion. Maybe it would work if it was extremely rare like the spirit mod.
YaY.. everyone has got bored and found a new thing to wyne about...
I don't know why ppl say "ppu-based"
greendonkeyuk
25-07-04, 01:34
lol why not just delete the ppu while you're at it?
There are already ways to combat ppus and hybrids, which are very effective.
1. antibuff (takes alot of pool and time to cast, but works)
2. Spirit mod (removes shelter instantly, rare for a reason)
3. "noob buff" tactic (frowned upon but exteremly effective)
4. Repeatdly stacking fire and poison (continuously hurts ppus, especially when shelter drops^^. Its funny to watch them franticly searching for their antidote spell)
5. Lot of force/pierce damage
Bad idea and not necesarry in my opinion. Maybe it would work if it was extremely rare like the spirit mod.
dude i play a ppu, not a bad one either. Sh is a spy weapon only (unless youre a severely drugged pe), droners only get the anti heal. (Drugging should not be necessary to take out an opponent, it should be a bonus to an already formidable pvp character) Thus alienating the rest of the spy class. Pes get sweet fa, as do tanks. Its tough to outheal a decent blessed heal let alone a holy heal. Id rather get away from monkocron for antibuffing personally. the idea was to create an across the board weapon/item that pes/spies and maybe even tanks could perhaps get their hands on.
lol why not just delete the ppu while you're at it?
THIS GUY IS TALKING SENSE, A REAL AMERICAN HERO, I SALUTE YOU SIR.
im still in to remove self cast only from psi shield :D
Shadow Dancer
25-07-04, 02:43
Great idea. But like QD said, the rof should drop considerably.
Every class should have access to some form of anti-ppu shield weaponry.
sex
What is the point of having a ppu then? Their usefulness would become EXTREMELY limited. APUs have their antibuff + heavy damaging spells, Spies have their Spirit mods and SH that does a LOT of damage to monks not to mention the drones. Those are frigging nasty for my CAPPED PPU (though it may have a bit to do with the fact that I am more PvM directed, but resists don't make THAT much of a difference over fully capped self-cast holy shields).
If you want every class to be even, then damnit, why don't we allow PPUs to have some way to friggin' kill anyone too? Or wait! Why don't we just get rid of all classes and all play PEs? Diversity is your friend! The game is FINE the way it is. Leave it be and think of something actually USEFUL to add to the game instead of these unbalancing tweaks that utterly kill one class or another!
In my opinion, the reason why you don't see PPUs bitching, even though we do currently have anti-heal weapons is because there is a serious lack of droners.
Can you think of the madness, and bitching that would ensue if you gave each and every class the ability to anti-heal a PPU?
No, I think this is a bad idea.
You ALREADY have a weapon that, due to dupes, is extremely common in spies, and instantly removes their best means of protection, with absolutely no warning to the PPU, or penalty to the user for using it in close-quarters.
FIX THE SPIRIT MOD ISSUE FIRST!!!
Note: I don't have a PPU of my own. I just feel sorry that there's so many people out there trying to utterly ruin a class, when every other class runs DIRECTLY off this class, in both PvP and PvM.
Playing a PPU is hard enought the way it is when your friends, and people you're trying to help bitch at you when you fuck up once and miss a shelter. I just can't understand why so many people want PPUs nerfed into a hole, when their sole purpose is to help out other people.
Shadow Dancer
25-07-04, 04:18
I just feel sorry that there's so many people out there trying to utterly ruin a class,
Maybe it's because they feel the PPU completely throws off balance?
You said it yourself.......
every other class runs DIRECTLY off this class, in both PvP and PvM.
Just because one class throws everything else off doesn't mean they need constant suggestions for nerfs.
If something throws everything else off, the first suggestion to fixing it should not be making it easier to kill that thing. People should actually THINK about ways to solve problems without fucking over an entire class.
A compromise should be made - you can't drop things into games like anti-heal bullets almost two years into Neocron's life. Anti-heal bullets for all classes would have had to be one of those things put in from the start, so you don't piss off anyone.
I can guarantee a large portion of PPUs would effectively give up the class for good if they suddenly were faced with yet another method of killing them. I know the PPU is too strong - but that's what they get for not having the ability to attack other people. If you want to make them easier to kill, find something to give back to PPUs to make it more of a fair trade.
EDIT: When you make suggestions such as these, (yes, I know the thread starter said he had a PPU) you have to think of the issue from both sides - The side of the nerfer, and the side of the Nerfed. If you come out with either side unhappy, it's probably best not to go through with the change. That's why I said that people need to learn to compromise - it's the only way to keep both sides reasonably happy.
Shadow Dancer
25-07-04, 04:53
Just because one class throws everything else off doesn't mean they need constant suggestions for nerfs.
Why not? They need to be toned down one way or the other. And let's face it, the PPu has thrown off the balance of PvP for uhhh a pretty long damn time.
If something throws everything else off, the first suggestion to fixing it should not be making it easier to kill that thing. People should actually THINK about ways to solve problems without fucking over an entire class.
There are many different suggestions. This is just one of them. It's not like PPUs help either, most of them are in denial of there being any problems and they flame every possible suggestion out there.
No matter how you slice it, the PPU is too important. ANYTHING you do to fix the problem will effect them in a way that most of them will call it a nerf.
A compromise should be made - you can't drop things into games like anti-heal bullets almost two years into Neocron's life. Anti-heal bullets for all classes would have had to be one of those things put in from the start, so you don't piss off anyone.
If KK didn't nerf anything for fear of pissing people off, we would still have sniper Holy Lightnings, hybrids who can take out 5 people, everybody having access to uber freezers, etc.....
I can guarantee a large portion of PPUs would effectively give up the class for good if they suddenly were faced with yet another method of killing them.
That's been said every time a suggestion was made or put on the test server. No matter WHAT suggestion is put forth, people will say that ppus will be destroyed, etc......
I can guarantee a large portion of PPUs would effectively give up the class for good if they suddenly were faced with yet another method of killing them. I know the PPU is too strong - but that's what they get for not having the ability to attack other people. If you want to make them easier to kill, find something to give back to PPUs to make it more of a fair trade.
PPUs are too important. I'm down with giving them something in return for toning them down effectively.
EDIT: When you make suggestions such as these, (yes, I know the thread starter said he had a PPU) you have to think of the issue from both sides - The side of the nerfer, and the side of the Nerfed. If you come out with either side unhappy, it's probably best not to go through with the change. That's why I said that people need to learn to compromise - it's the only way to keep both sides reasonably happy.
Are you serious? Once again if this was true NO changes were ever be made. You think hybrids were happy about being toned down? Their were tons of them who loved having holy shelters and the ability to use rares, you think they were happy when they got nerfed? So just because one side might be unhappy it means you shouldn't go through with the change?
And how come you don't offer up any suggestions to balance them? You said you know they are too strong. But yet you are one of those people who never offer up a suggestion, just shoot other peoples' down. No offense.
Are you serious? Once again if this was true NO changes were ever be made. You think hybrids were happy about being toned down? Their were tons of them who loved having holy shelters and the ability to use rares, you think they were happy when they got nerfed? So just because one side might be unhappy it means you shouldn't go through with the change?
I played a hybrid too a long time ago... I did not mind the change at all and I enjoyed LoMing my old hybrid to a pure PPU to help my friends who LoMed to pure APUs. (Well, not the act of LoMing 100-some odd points, but still). Hybrids WERE imbalanced horribly and I am glad they were fixed, as was the range on beams and many other things. But now the game IS balanced. Yes, it is dependent on PPUs, but um... Ever play any other friggin' team-based game? Pencil n' Paper RPGs perhaps? Or other MMOs? There is ALWAYS a class that is more essential to have in a group than any other class... It's just a way to make the game blanaced and depend on teamwork! You CAN play without a PPU, but you would be more effective with one.
The truth is, I don't have any suggestions. I don't have a PPU, and even though I don't like how much they effect PvP *COUGH* PARASPAM *COUGH*, I certainly don't mind how much easier they make things.
I don't have any ideas - all that I can say is that this would be extremely excessive.
And about all the things in the past. The reason why we don't have those things is because of massive nerfs. I feel that if we would have come to a compromise on a lot of the issues in the past, there wouldn't be so much unhappiness as there currently is in this game.
THE NERFS NEED TO STOP. COMPROMISE = BETTER THAN NERF, FOR GAMEPLAY AND FUN FACTOR!!!
Shadow Dancer
25-07-04, 05:08
I played a hybrid too a long time ago...
And? I wasn't referring to *all* hybrids.
There is ALWAYS a class that is more essential to have in a group than any other class...
If the ppu doesn't have any offense, I don't think there's a problem with him/her being a little bit more important than other classes. But not to the degree they are now. "Important" is an understatement.
You CAN play without a PPU, but you would be more effective with one.
And I CAN stop breathing. But that's not really a smart choice is it? Try going to an op war without a ppu....
And I mean against people with decent skills.
THE NERFS NEED TO STOP. COMPROMISE = BETTER THAN NERF, FOR GAMEPLAY AND FUN FACTOR!!!
Some ppus will see ANY change, ANY at all as a nerf.
If somethging is too strong, and it is "fixed" its not a Nerf, a nerf hints that something is fine and they screw it up and make it too week.
The old Hybrids were to friggen strong, and they FIXED it, that wasnt a Nerf, they were way stronger then intendded, and were so for a long time untill they balanced and fixed it (damed PPU based Hybrids are becoming a pain now though)
balanced or not, a PPU is like a compleate fun blocker in thgsi game. i think thats what everyone is sauddely hiunting at. They are kinda balanced (tghough if u use PPU, u shouldnt be able to use any APU, thatway nerfing hybrids wont affect PPU's) But soon as a PPU pops up in a fight, i just leave, fun over, PPU comes in and is like the buzkill of the party.
Havin a fun PvP Party, the PPU commin in is like the Cop knocking on your door telling you to quiet things down, lol.
-Crono
If somethging is too strong, and it is "fixed" its not a Nerf, a nerf hints that something is fine and they screw it up and make it too week.
The old Hybrids were to friggen strong, and they FIXED it, that wasnt a Nerf, they were way stronger then intendded, and were so for a long time untill they balanced and fixed it (damed PPU based Hybrids are becoming a pain now though)
balanced or not, a PPU is like a compleate fun blocker in thgsi game. i think thats what everyone is sauddely hiunting at. They are kinda balanced (tghough if u use PPU, u shouldnt be able to use any APU, thatway nerfing hybrids wont affect PPU's) But soon as a PPU pops up in a fight, i just leave, fun over, PPU comes in and is like the buzkill of the party.
Havin a fun PvP Party, the PPU commin in is like the Cop knocking on your door telling you to quiet things down, lol.
-Crono
Well, that's not quite right. Unles you have not noticed, KK have had a very very very bad showing in fixing things. Wether it is game balance or bugs that have been found and reported in beta and since retail and are STILL in the game. The hybrid nerf WAS a nerf because they took hybrids from being overpowered to being utterly unplayable (soloing most mobs became a problem after the nerf. All classes can SOLO something except maybe PPUs that have no offense). So I can guarantee that if KK try to do what people say and "fix" the PPUs, they will kill the class off for a good few months as usual and a lot more people who play PPUs as their primary character (like me) will quit the game for good and be extremely bitter.
enigma_b17
25-07-04, 12:06
god no, theres enuf anti ppu based weapons as there is, any more and buffing would just be pointless
greendonkeyuk
25-07-04, 14:29
well the original post was made with reference to the blessed heal using hybrids who DO have an attack and also DO have one of the BEST defences going. Regards to ppus, yeah this would affect them. I considered that before posting, of course i did.
Ok remove ppus from the equasion for a mo, Blessed HEAL Hybrids, who thinks theyre too strong? a whole bunch of people did in Szorksmoks thread, hence the point of this poll.
Can someone give another reasonable idea as to how to reduce the effectiveness of them. I didnt want this thread to be another thread where everyone moans about ppus gettin it in the ass, but the problem is anythin that affects hybrids will affect either one or the other monk disciplines as well by default.
I totally agree about the ROF thing also. I wouldnt want to be spammed by this kind of ammo. Please also bear in mind here that an antiheal ammo mod would not JUST work against ppus it would work against all classes. How many times have you lost against a pistol pe because he heals every 10 seconds? It stops that too.
too many people i think cry nerf without thinkin things through properly. thanks for the feedback so far anyway.
I think saying the game runs on PPUs is so so wrong :/
lvling and OP wars maybe but thats what there meant for.
You don't as often see PPUs as u used to as they have some how been fucked over enough already.
I used to love PPUing for DarK But after i lommed back to PPU for the short period between the KAMI chip getting fucked over and realising i can use exp2/3 i couldn't LOM away from it sooner. The class is not what it used to be , and by that i don't mean killable. There used to be this extra flair.... feel that u were 100% needed and its not jsut me but its gone some how. i don't know how.
We have tried to and successfully defended OPs in AYB without a single PPU... I think the class has been fucked over enough in the "ways to kill way" if it needs change its a big change not a new weapon or idea to make it even less fun to play.
I know what i mean... dunno if that made sense... *goes to work*
Doc Holliday
25-07-04, 15:11
Well, that's not quite right. Unles you have not noticed, KK have had a very very very bad showing in fixing things. Wether it is game balance or bugs that have been found and reported in beta and since retail and are STILL in the game. The hybrid nerf WAS a nerf because they took hybrids from being overpowered to being utterly unplayable (soloing most mobs became a problem after the nerf. All classes can SOLO something except maybe PPUs that have no offense). So I can guarantee that if KK try to do what people say and "fix" the PPUs, they will kill the class off for a good few months as usual and a lot more people who play PPUs as their primary character (like me) will quit the game for good and be extremely bitter.
PPU can use para bolt as a weapon. plus db. plus soul cluster means they can try and kill something. anyway im not tryin to pick fault. oh lareolan. i been meaning to ask if u are who i think you are. i havent seen u around the boards in a long time and haveing not played proper in a while. did u run apple technologies on uranus??? :D if so are u still playing on there. i might start playing again in the next few weeks as im gettin a little bored of other games so it would be nice to catch up. if your not who i think u are then ignore me. :)
PPUs should be removed or bar that just remove all ppu spells over psi 40 and bring res down to psi 40 and everything will be sorted and everybody will be happy.The other alternatives to balancing PPUs are to either make shelter and deflecter self-castable only or just make it so that blessed and holy heals dont heal so much.
As for the thread topic while I want the importance and overpowering nature of PPUs reduced, I personally think that it would destroy every class but tanks.PPUs need their heals to survive long as their health is low, same goes for APUs, PEs main advantage is that it has a good shelter and deflecter so can soak up and heal themselves, any close combat spies need to be constantly healed because of low health so it leaves us with tanks who have high resists and high health so can damage soak longer then other without a heal so thus tanks will be the order of the day.
Every class needs a way to combat PPUs but PPUs also have to be left with a chance to keep themselves alive and making anti-heal weapons for every class will remove that.
Meet the healer which can outheal nukes... shields that can literally make you take no damage, a damage boost that makes people become paper, and the ultimate blue glue, might add the secondary tradeskill, the primary boosts, support boosts and weapon boosts as well....did I say that they can also remove these status effects, and are the only class who can do it effectively? you bet. how about immortality to boot? thats standard across the line.
wait we missed the one more thing, yes ppus can bring back the dead :eek:
oh wow i'm sure the ppu is very balanced...
ways to take down a PPU.
noob buffs: ineffective for PPUs who know "when" to recast.
antibuff: too damn slow, and miss once your mana pool bye bye, PPUs can run just as fast as any other person.
spirit bullets: a select few have them, unbalanced gameplay problem.
mosquito: being a droner I can tell you it is the most useless drone available, you could probably help more by crashing a a revenge.
damage boost? : well my PPU who isn't even capped 77/60 can outheal damage boosts, and of course I can also negate the effects of blue glue and db effectively as well.
so what ways? ideas? TSG? doesn't work. only way to kill a ppu is by massing a stampede onto them, or kill them with monks, which brings us back to point A, where monks are severely overpowered, because PPUs are ridiculously strong, hell blessed heal can outheal most weapons, why bother with holy heal. someone about to die, hit with holy heal, wow instant back on maximum heal.
the PPU class is bullshit which should have been fixed a hell long ago, a long with a lot of other shit. I keep saying put the patches back to pre stealth nerf/melee boost era, and force self cast shields.
also this idea is cumbersome to implement,
just nerf heals together, a Pe shouldn't be able to revive his health in the middle of a fight, nor should any other class. Heals should be terminated when people get hit, and they need to cover from fire before they get hit, this forces strategy.
the problem is the heal spell is a very powerful heal over time, and in Neocron act as a buffer for health in damage, where as damage should be done, the heal spell will instantly absorb the damage, making the player taking no damage, and in most cases making the player restore his health completely.
trust me I know. I am the one who experienced the horror, of getting run over by 8 ppus, 2 apus and 5 hybrids.
greendonkeyuk
25-07-04, 22:32
so the best part i got out of that was a heal nerf. I agree. Thats probably a better idea. I dont want to nerf ppus totally. I just know that if you say nerf blessed heal then tonnes of hybrids bitch all over again, but (not being a hybrid) i like the idea.
However is it fair to do with regards to class balance? Or do we nerf holy heal as well? or neither?
Reduce both dont nerf both.
just make heal dissapear when you get hit...might make tanks too overpowered., its a good idea but I see balance issues actually, classes which rely on the heal will suffer, putting the tank in the overpowered place as they need the heal less.
Freaky Fryd
26-07-04, 06:57
Very bad idea, especially with something like the Speed Gat
I agree with Fryd on that one. That'll fuck everyone up. And be plain annoying.
I've said it before, and for fuck sakes, I'll say it again.
Tone down foreign casted heals(keep self-heals the way they are.)
Tone down foreign casted shelter/deflector(again, leave it for self-casted.)
Uh, might work, maybe make combat buffs self-casted only?
Imo I think that would be a good compromise, and for fuck sakes, if you bitch about that, you obviously don't play PPU to help people. You play it to be 'TEH UBAR 1337 LLOLZOLOZL'.
Tone down heals and people can go to the friggin level 3 tunnels themselves and get the damn ultimas on their own.
If you touch the PPUs you would have to "fix" all the mobs as well... Apparitions, lvl3/lvl2 tunnels, Faction guards (i.e for RP), DoY bots/guards... all of them.
If not, you can just remove all characters wanting to PvM against hard mobs in a confined area.
And don't give me that crap about "we solo the chaos caves". Well chaos caves happen to have very good cover. Go to the DoY tunnels instead... or do the apparition...
Make shockers PvM only... make the crahn glove give antishock+1 or something which negates all shocks.
EDIT: o_O The rest was supposed to go in the hybrid thread btw... Dunno what hit my head.
I admit I made a hybrid last week... A blessed hybrid. However... I don't even have a freezer in my QB. Not even in my inv. Hell, I dind't even CST one.
Cause it ruins the fun and enjoyment.
The talk about blessed heal being able to outheal everything is just a load of bollocks.. I can't even begin to measure the amount of bollocks. Don't strafe around like mad and get hit by a capped char and you'll see. All the high level force based rares doesn't have any problem doing more damage that the blessed heal restores. That goes for APU rares as well.
The blessed heal is good when you strafe around a lot. Also, since most fight are in PP nowadays it gives a very skew picture of the situation. To make proper use of the blessed heal, the hybrid needs to run away for a second or two and take cover. This is very easy in PP and this is why all always complain "wtf he has full hlt all the time".
It takes effort to actually being a good hybrid. Most people think that it's just point and click.
I've been playing this game since day one of beta 4. I've been playing a monk for 1,5 friggin years and you would guess that would help me in being an excellent hybrid. Well it does, but I am by far excellent. I've been playing PPU for over a year so that helps me with the timings and the reflexes reagarding buffs... But still...
It's by far point and click only. Now, I don't use shockers, so that is one less spell.. but otherwise I have attack spell+db+heal+shelter+deflector+prims to keep track of.
I find it less stressful to play a pure PPU even. At least on the PPU you know you won't be dying as long as the shelters are up and you have a heal on constantly.
On the hybrid you have to move around, keep the targets db:ed (while they pop drugs all the time), keep yourself healed and sheltered AND attack them.
I don't know... I suggest all go try out a hybrid at some point so they actually understand what I mean.
You can easily get frustrated you know ;)
hybrids are easy to play...as long as your are soloing, its exatcly the same as playing a PE minus the drugging.
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