View Full Version : Will/Can People replace models like Mob/NPC models?
Psycho_Soldier
18-07-04, 03:25
Reason why I am asking this is because I think it would be cool if players could create their own models that look awesome with DX9. Can get rid of shitty models like combat knife and the claw and most of the other models that don't look so well and that would be able to take advantage of DX9 if it needs to. My point is, KK's models suck and I believe players could do better and it would be nice if they can. Also replacing player models would be good too. I don't mean just skins either, I mean the whole model, just as long as it fits certain a certain size.
If model;s could be changed don't you think someone would of posted it by now :P
But im sure it must be possable with all that 1.5 gig suved on your PC :) All i can say is good luk to the person whos gunna try and edit em!
Psycho_Soldier
18-07-04, 10:07
If model;s could be changed don't you think someone would of posted it by now :P
Not really, do you realize how long it has taken for people to get out crosshair, custom skins, and new RPOS style, and those seem minor in comparison and they just started coming out not too long ago.
Not really, do you realize how long it has taken for people to get out crosshair, custom skins, and new RPOS style, and those seem minor in comparison and they just started coming out not too long ago.
The graphic files for those have been found/released though. KK have never released the 3d models, or said what format they're in, or how to access them at all, and nobody's found out either.
They did post some mesh for a skinning competition long ago. But that's irrelevant now since the mod forum closed thanks to exploiters.
btw, 3d artists dont grow on trees.
It is unlikely they will as a person could use it to cheat.
I'm not sure on that TBH. The hitboxes can be done separately, so the model itself doesn't matter. If that's the case, then there isn't much of an advantage anyone could gain from changing the models. The only possible thing is making people easier to see, but the only time I ever don't notice someone is when they're at minumum LoD and turn into that shadow sprite. As Mad CopBots show, that's not related to the model.
I have a similar idea to Psycho_Soldier.. Looking at Original beta shots why not one NC 2 Beta has started create another competition which always beta testers to design and submit new skins to fit the new models!?
Yep unfortunately even if hitboxes are seperate to the models themselves it's far too exploitable. Not going to happen.
Wrong approach.
It is the engine what can take advantages of certain technologies (like bumpmapping). And models have to be prepared in very special way so engine will interpert them correctly.
So you can change models as long and they comply to all rules forced by engine.
And as second point, sole fact of using certain DX version does not mean engine will make use of all its features. Actually I've never heard of engine that implemented every single DX feature. Mostly because some of them exludes others, some are too slow and some of them are just plain useless :P
..i..DemonX
19-07-04, 02:36
It would be cool but i think some will use it again as Hax then! Imagine to change the Stealth Model to something collorfull, so u can see where he is all time u only lil near to him. Or even replace it totaly so u can see the Spy over whole Zone!
And trust me such stuff will happen, like ppl made Aimbots and other stuff!
Sad but there will all time be ppl that do that kind of stuff if they are able to!
Psycho_Soldier
19-07-04, 02:40
And trust me such stuff will happen, like ppl made Aimbots and other stuff!
Lol, hacks have already been made for aimbots and shooting stealthing spies. I seriously doubt being able to change the model would have any relation to being able to make one anyway. Why do you think that massive banning thing happened? A video was released of a aimbot that could shoot stealthing spies and never had to reload and shoot super fast.
Fuck all this "modding leads to hacking" crap, exploiters +hacker +cheaters have been around since beta, long before the modding forum.
Get so sick of some models(plasma cannon and assault rifle especially).
..i..DemonX
19-07-04, 02:44
Fuck all this "modding leads to hacking" crap, exploiters +hacker +cheaters have been around since beta, long before the modding forum.
Get so sick of some models(plasma cannon and assault rifle especially).
No it is this way, sad but it is. Sure there are all time hacker, exploiter, cheater there but open things like a sourcecode makes it far more easyer for them! And even the not to uber skilled hackers can do something then.
But i would like offline files (that are diff to the game) where u can tweak new models and send to KK so all can enjoy it. Well this would need a fast working support tough and some votes may...
Only a idear
No it is this way, sad but it is. Sure there are all time hacker, exploiter, cheater there but open things like a sourcecode makes it far more easyer for them! And even the not to uber skilled hackers can do something then.
I noticed more hacks/exploiting pre modding forum then post modding forum.
Just what I've seen.
No it is this way, sad but it is. Sure there are all time hacker, exploiter, cheater there but open things like a sourcecode makes it far more easyer for them! And even the not to uber skilled hackers can do something then.
But i would like offline files (that are diff to the game) where u can tweak new models and send to KK so all can enjoy it. Well this would need a fast working support tough and some votes may...
Only a idear
We're talking about models. Not code. Also we don't know how stealth is handled. The blue cloud is just sprites and there may bo no model called for the invisible spy. So allowing people to make their own models wouldn't affect it.
I noticed more hacks/exploiting pre modding forum then post modding forum.
Just what I've seen.
yea that is true. more exploits there patched right after the moding forum went up.
why? because people that dont exploit seen how easy it could be and reported it. thats why we now have filechecks and serverside checks.
Also we don't know how stealth is handled. The blue cloud is just sprites and there may bo no model called for the invisible spy.
Standard models are where the problem lies. Allowing people to modify them would let the dishonest few perform all the now common place hacks (in games like Quake and Half Life) such as spiking and full-bright skins. Quite frankly it's too much of a sacrifice for a few nicer looking models.
File checking could be used but the required level would just about put an end to a modding community and certainly increase the startup time a lot.
Perhaps if you made new models from scratch and sent them to KK they would consider converting them to their format and including them in a later patch? :) However it goes I think KK should keep tight control over their data files.
Edit:
I remember someone once suggested using a system such as PunkBuster to deter/catch cheats. I don't think this is possible under Neocrons netcode model as it's based on things such as reaction times over angular distances etc. I think it also assumes close client synchronization, something which Neocron is sometimes lacking.
Psycho_Soldier
19-07-04, 07:14
Standard models are where the problem lies. Allowing people to modify them would let the dishonest few perform all the now common place hacks (in games like Quake and Half Life) such as spiking and full-bright skins. Quite frankly it's too much of a sacrifice for a few nicer looking models.
LOL! Those would not help ANYONE in Neocron. Spiking has nothing to do with modeling but even if it did, I fail to see how that would help anyone in Neocron.. If it did, it would help in VERY little situations, not enough to be worth caught with it and besides, spiking is too annoying looking. Bright models? Oh ya as if the giant glowing box around them doesn't help enough... Also keep in mind, too big of a model can get confusing, and too small of a model makes it harder. The only way you can hurt someone is if you shoot them within the target box. Just have a GM turn into a hoverbot or grim chaser, their target box stays the same. GMs can change their targetbox but that has nothing to do with the model.
how about a compromise... allowing modding of player-only models (your guns, yourself, ect) and skins (which you can do now AFAIK) but preventing you from making new mob models that are really big (to target easily) or something like that...
Modding communities aren't a big thing in MMORPG (for obvious reasons) but they are the only reason some FPSs are still around (Half-life anyone?) and if NC could tap into that kind of community support I think it would mean a lot.
Psycho_Soldier
19-07-04, 07:20
how about a compromise... allowing modding of player-only models (your guns, yourself, ect) and skins (which you can do now AFAIK) but preventing you from making new mob models that are really big (to target easily) or something like that...
Modding communities aren't a big thing in MMORPG (for obvious reasons) but they are the only reason some FPSs are still around (Half-life anyone?) and if NC could tap into that kind of community support I think it would mean a lot.
Read my post above, what you said makes no sense. Models are not related to the target box.
yeah, I know, it was an example... I'm not enough of a Hax0r to even think of how making a percy look prettier would be inherently abusable, but if there's one thing that players prove constantly it's that the tiniest bit of info on the inner workings of a game can be used to do BAD things...
Oh ya as if the giant glowing box around them doesn't help enough
Full bright skins are not to do with once you target someone but helping spot someone. ie the outdoor or really dark areas. It wasn't originally conceved to help target people who are up close.
The only way you can hurt someone is if you shoot them within the target box. Just have a GM turn into a hoverbot or grim chaser, their target box stays the same. GMs can change their targetbox but that has nothing to do with the model.
Yes, thats right. But imagine a spiked model, or an overly large one, that you can see through a wall because it's collision box is still the same. Thats right, you know exactly where they are even though they're behind a building! Spiking isn't to assist aiming but, as with full brights, makes people easy to find.
As I said, it's extremely exploitable.
If model;s could be changed don't you think someone would of posted it by now :P
But im sure it must be possable with all that 1.5 gig suved on your PC :) All i can say is good luk to the person whos gunna try and edit em!
Im no expert, but i dont see why it cant be done.
As in NL pro and the like, they have already changed some itemGFX, the rest has to be accessible.
Also if back at the end of beta people worked out how to hack the beta client into the retail and connect, and play then im sure this wouldnt be that much trouble for someone skilled enough.
The next question is, do we have one in OUR community?
3D modellers, animators and texture artists?
/me raises hand
Someone willing to hack the game to do this?
/me lowers hand
The thing is, these would really have to be approved changes (as in, model goes to KK, KK puts it in the right format and puts it in the game) rather than your typical client side modifications to reduce exploiting.. To give out the information to do all the work ourselves (In other words, knowing how to extract / reproduce the model formats in their current form) then we'd be in a whole heap of trouble - encorporating the mod would simply be a matter of giving the file the right name and putting it in the right place in the NC directory (since individual files override the same files in the archives)
yeah, I know, it was an example... I'm not enough of a Hax0r to even think of how making a percy look prettier would be inherently abusable, but if there's one thing that players prove constantly it's that the tiniest bit of info on the inner workings of a game can be used to do BAD things...
True true, but the are some games that are so modible its not funny, like farcry.
And as far as ive seen only good things have been done it that community.
Sure, im not a hacker and im not in that scene, so i cant see shit.
and it happens everywhere, but because of the way the modding works, no matter how much you make a mod to exploit shit, everyone gets the same shit.
so it balances out.
Just cant be done in NC unless its official.
Well i dont see why skins/models cant be, not forgetting a big player model can still hide behind a box, tree, etc. and not get hit. The bullet heads towards the middle of the target box and gets deflected :P or is this only in PvM?
..i..DemonX
19-07-04, 13:22
Im no expert, but i dont see why it cant be done.
As in NL pro and the like, they have already changed some itemGFX, the rest has to be accessible.
Also if back at the end of beta people worked out how to hack the beta client into the retail and connect, and play then im sure this wouldnt be that much trouble for someone skilled enough.
The next question is, do we have one in OUR community?
Uhm that not sounds like those would support the game realy!
That whats in at NL Pro is cool and looks pretty cool but they not used hacks to make it, as well they support the game and try to make it better not like those hacker ur call up here!
Full-bright skins are a moot point, as skins can already be modded.
True - but you're safe if you're in PA.. besides, this may all be a moot point if KK decides to use a different method and file format for the in game models - we may not be able to skin the new models at all (which would be a real shame :()
True - but you're safe if you're in PA.. besides, this may all be a moot point if KK decides to use a different method and file format for the in game models - we may not be able to skin the new models at all (which would be a real shame :()
How's that? Most PA is almost full-bright anyway if you turn the contrast up a bit. The colours and shades don't take effect unless you're up close, and the point of full-bright is people far away. The only ones safe really are monks.
Besides that, full-bright is pointless anyway. The only range that spotting players is a problem is at long sniper range - but at that range they're at minimum LoD and just that shadow sprite, so a fullbright skin doesn't help.
At the end of the day, you still have to aim for the same area, and spotting players isn't difficult. So I don't see a problem with it.
Though TBH I would prefer if everyone had the same models for consistency. I would like to see a modelling competition perhaps, KK could specify say .3ds format or whatever and give a list of things to remodel, hopefully including PE PA. Then see what the community turns up.
Psycho_Soldier
19-07-04, 18:19
Though TBH I would prefer if everyone had the same models for consistency. I would like to see a modelling competition perhaps, KK could specify say .3ds format or whatever and give a list of things to remodel, hopefully including PE PA. Then see what the community turns up.
I agree with your whole post except for this part. If I want to go to El Farid and see every scorpion look like mickey mouse, that should be my choice, not KK's because no one else will see it. If what you say will be the only way then it is better than nothing. They could hire someone or have a volunteer and a section section of the website dedicated to the customizations approved by this person. All they would need is one person. Just have him approve them, and have him convert them to whatever format they need to be and then host them on the Neocron website. If KK offered this kind of support to the modding community I would be truely greatful.
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