View Full Version : Toy for PEs probly wouldnt work but hey, it's an idea!!
well, since lots of peeps are moaning about PE's losing stealth and not having any toys to play with how about this: when gliders come out, is there a flying transport? if not, make one, now, PE's get to have parachutes!!, imagine how cool it would be to fly over an op and 5 PE's jump out, avoiding the defenses of the defending clan. Not sure how it could be implemented, either as an armour, or as an item to activate like the stealth tool. To avoid any class doing this, make it PE only.
Any character jumping out of a glider dies on hitting the ground without a parachute, or just make it so you are unable to exit a glider in the air unless you have a parachute active?
.....
PE's = Para's O_o
FUCLOMG!
Sounds interesting :p
Underground
09-07-04, 19:57
Would that not suit tanks more ? The commando type class...
All I have to say on the PE subject is LOWTECH !!
My PE was lowtech rifles, was tougher then a brick shithouse, and fast as hell to boot. Lowtech pistols arent bad either, just gotta have a rock solid aim for pistols to get the hits in and damage UP
PEs are fine, low tech PEs have the best solo defence barring PPUs
lololol
Why would you wanna Para drop PE's into anywhere :P
PE's would be the drivers, Tanks would be the Gunners/Para Drops (thougfhy im fairly certian i could fall from any of those heights and not die anyways :P)
Dont get me wrong, there is a shitload of PE's who could kick my ass too :P This is just a kinda RP perspective :P
PE's dont need lovin in that respect of new PE only stuff man :P Their jack of all trades classes, meant to do a bit of everyone elsses specialized skills, if anything, make their ability to do that better, because there is an imbalance in their ability to do that well i hear.
-Crono
Underground
09-07-04, 20:01
lololol
Why would you wanna Para drop PE's into anywhere :P
PE's would eb the drivers, Tanks would be the Gunners/Para Drops (thougfhy im fairly certian i could fall from any of those heights and not die anyways :P)
Dont get me wrong, there is a shitload of PE's who could kick my ass too :P This is just a kinda RP perspective :P
PE's dont need lovin in that respect of new PE only stuff man :P Their jack of all trades classes, meant to do a bit of everyone elsses specialized skills, if anything, make their ability to do that better, because there is an imbalance in their ability to do that well i hear.
-Crono
Their not a jack of all trades.
Their a class that has access to rifles, pistols, melee, HC, and also has 35 PSI. Thats their good point, plain and simple, you chose your attack type, and you specialise in that and set your char up for that, you cant be a jack of all trades, PEs aint got enough points
i know! but thats what their supposed to be, ehh, maby that has changed, but thats what they were aiming that class at back before rares. They could literally be that without wasting so much points :/
-Crono
Mumblyfish
09-07-04, 20:23
That is so a spy toy.
:angel:
KK removed stealth from PEs, that was basically them saying that no PEs are not JOATs anymore, as if they were joats then they should be allowed to use stealth 1.
virgil caine
09-07-04, 20:26
I can agree with that. I feel that the experiment taking 10 sec stealth away from PE's is a failure. If you can't deal with a PE stealthing for 10 seconds, I say you are the one with the problem.
I spent a long time capping my PE and feel it is unfair to change the rules in the middle of the game. Some experiments are ok, but I say put stealth1 back like it was and go nerf another class...maybe spies, they havn't been "jacked around" in a while. Yeah sounds good.
PE's should be able to use H-C Pa.
No reason why other than to boost the H-C pe.
There should also be a H-C implant thats only really usefull if you are a H-C pe.
Paw of Tiger needs lowering by 1TL.
i think its a good idea, i can imagine it now, walking into the wastelands to pick off a few PE's for dinner with an anti-air rocket launcher :p
PE's should be able to use H-C Pa.
No reason why other than to boost the H-C pe.
There should also be a H-C implant thats only really usefull if you are a H-C pe.
Paw of Tiger needs lowering by 1TL.
an H-C imp only for PE? thats a bit pushing it ;P
But what happened, i rember PE's able to use the first lvl Tank PA before with drugs? has it changed?
-Crono
there's now a class req on it, as with all PAs
just make PE PA so spys cant use it, then have all other PAs open to all classes... problem fixed. you'll have rifle and pistol tanks again, spys cant throw on PE PA4 to get the early boost, a HC PE would be more viable... it would change the cookie cutter effect that everyone seems to hate yet want.... :wtf:
No. PE's have had their toy, they constantly exploited it (the shit pe's and its the shit pe's that still moan about it). Give tanks a fucking toy for once, WOW! we had a multicoloured PA that does nothing extra bar look toss!. :rolleyes:
tanks have their toys o_O
they have many rares to choose from
a still annoying arse dev
the lovely old school CS
and of course the annoying always hits you Ravager :D
then if you are melee
you have the well overpowered piercing + force PoB and PoT
and the ever lovely Devils Grace :P
virgil caine
09-07-04, 21:22
How do you call using a tool for its intended purpose an exploit ? And I will just ignore the comments on a person's level of competance...has no place in this thread.
tanks have their toys o_O
they have many rares to choose from
a still annoying arse dev
the lovely old school CS
and of course the annoying always hits you Ravager :D
then if you are melee
you have the well overpowered piercing + force PoB and PoT
and the ever lovely Devils Grace :P
BS, dont go naming our rares, every class has their rares they can use, and usually 2 paths of then (like Pistol or Rifle) :P common :P
-Crono
[EDIT]
How do you call using a tool for its intended purpose an exploit ? And I will just ignore the comments on a person's level of competance...has no place in this thread.
if thats refering to PE and Cloaking, then im fairly certian it was only removed because not anything to do with exploiting, just that after its was released they dicidded they diddnt like how it affected balance.
like chances on slots there should be a chance ur shoot don't open and u fall to ur horibbley messy death :angel:
tanks have their toys o_O
they have many rares to choose from
a still annoying arse dev
the lovely old school CS
and of course the annoying always hits you Ravager :D
then if you are melee
you have the well overpowered piercing + force PoB and PoT
and the ever lovely Devils Grace :P
Yeah tanks have these rares : H-C - Dev/Rav/CS...the rest are useless :rolleyes: M-C - them all are useful but no one uses anything bar DG and PoB anyway.
PE's have :lol: every fucking rare availiable in the RC/PC area, the lower tech melee rares availiable, its the reason pe's are called JOAT's :rolleyes:
CS sucks...it got nerfed, Dev you need poison against so your fault and rav is quite useful all round.
Ya' know tanks did once have a toy, yeah...it was called Power Armour.
u know what ive always seen the PEs as being more commandos than Tanks, i mean, special forces have gotta be resourcefull, and have to beable to use a whole host of equipment from Computers to vehicals, and plus, i cant see a tank sneaking around :p
u know what ive always seen the PEs as being more commandos than Tanks, i mean, special forces have gotta be resourcefull, and have to beable to use a whole host of equipment from Computers to vehicals, and plus, i cant see a tank sneaking around :p
Dont go trying to change what a PE is and should be ;P
man, ever since this game came out there have been groups of people playign PE's trying to get them more powered up almost as to change what they were to supposed to be what they wanted them to be :P
I rember the 'bring back the Libby" thread back when it was soo unsanly overpowered (enough that more then half the tanks switched to P-C) and yet all the PE's though this was as it should be and wanted it back, to hell with balance and what each class's strength should be :P
-Crono
u know what ive always seen the PEs as being more commandos than Tanks, i mean, special forces have gotta be resourcefull, and have to beable to use a whole host of equipment from Computers to vehicals, and plus, i cant see a tank sneaking around :p
Id never pick a tank over a pe the way it stands. The pe is by far easier to be good at ...they level twice as fast, they have better defense, the same offense, more choice of guns, faster, dont loose speed with wep drawn, are piss easy to setup, have autoaiming weapons almost, have DB, can hack belts/poke yourself...the list goes on.
whats the point in having some elite unit out in the wastes doing some covert mission, if they cant even tie there shoelaces without help :p
whats the point in having some elite unit out in the wastes doing some covert mission, if they cant even tie there shoelaces without help :p
Spys and their cloaking is that feild man ;P
You dont rip a jack or all trades normal Joe and throw him into a covert ops mission ;P
Neo LoneWolf
09-07-04, 21:38
Private Eyes, IMO, shouldn't have lost access to stealth. Giving the tool a limit (such as a cool-down, making the higher level stealths /strictly/ superior) would have been far more appropriate.
Then again, I didn't think PEs should have had their own PA (and the others not have had a class req on them). Access to level 1 M-C & H-C PAs , level 2 R-C & P-C PAs (3 with heavy speccing). Why did they get their own? Oh yes - the PE players would feel left out o_O
And yes, PEs really should be geared (gamewise) towards Low-tech weaponry of all types
virgil caine
09-07-04, 21:38
u know what ive always seen the PEs as being more commandos than Tanks, i mean, special forces have gotta be resourcefull, and have to beable to use a whole host of equipment from Computers to vehicals, and plus, i cant see a tank sneaking around :p
Very well put, not a JOAT class but a broadly trained warrior. Able to take over the job of any other team member, not as an expert but with high competance. Under present constraints there is simply no way to do anything well; being able to accomplish a task does not imply competance.
Underground
09-07-04, 21:40
tanks have their toys o_O
they have many rares to choose from
a still annoying arse dev
the lovely old school CS
and of course the annoying always hits you Ravager :D
then if you are melee
you have the well overpowered piercing + force PoB and PoT
and the ever lovely Devils Grace :P
OK
Thats it.
Depending on the chosen route, the following classes can get access to these weapons, some more effective then others for their class, generally those intended for their class, like a HC tank > PC tank etc, anyway, still, this is what these classes have access to...
TANK-
CS
Mal
Dev
Rav
Doomie
MooniePOB
POT
BOC
POB
DG
TBolt
ETempest
VR
Dentist
Peacemaker
Lib
PE
Termi
MONK-
APU-
HL
FA
HAB
AB
HPest
HThunderstorm
HFirestorm
PPU-
Cath
HCath
HCath Sanctum
HP
True Shite
APS
Spy-
Lib
Judge
Exec
ROLH
Earp
Slasher
BOH
PE
Disruptor
HealingLight
SilentHunter (+Spirit Mod)
ROG
Termi
NOW, lets look at what the PE can gain access to...
PE-
Lib
Judge
Exec
ROLH
Earp
Slasher
BOH
PE
Disruptor
HealingLight
SilentHunter (+Spirit Mod)
ROG
Termi
CS
Mal
Dev
Rav
Doomie
MooniePOB
POT
BOC
TBolt
ETempest
VR
Dentist
Peacemaker
Does that list look fair to you ?
HC PE, Wears tank armour, has tank weapons, can get near to 200 HC with beast, has self cast shelter, giving them MUCH MUCH better defence then a solo tank
MC PE, Has the speed of a melee tank, with drugs can get to all melee rares apart from DG and POB, has tank armour, melee tank runspeed, an abundance of dex to play with for agil, recycle, vehicle etc, 60 int to use for psi use, hacking, poking... self cast shelter giving him MUCH MUCH better defence then a solo tank
RC PE, Has access to all weapons a spy can use, has better defence then a spy can use, can get hacking high enough for OPs, or poke 115 aswell as wep lore... self cast shelter once again giving the solo PE better defence then a tank
PC PE, Same as RC PE, But doesent need as much wep lore so can definately hack OPs or poke 115 without any excuses, aswell as get capped aim, aswell as high ROF on weapons intended for spies
Now come the fuck on, PE's are fine, there is nothing bad about them IMO, They have access to most of the rares in the game apart from monk ones...
a PE can also get good stats on anything they can use, capped or near capped. They dont need ''new toys'' as they already have access to nearly all the current ''toys''
O_o
Very well put, not a JOAT class but a broadly trained warrior. Able to take over the job of any other team member, not as an expert but with high competance. Under present constraints there is simply no way to do anything well; being able to accomplish a task does not imply competance.
But their not warriors or commandos :D :D :D
their the avarage normal human type in the game. Some have trained and gotten themselvs very very good at the class, but it isnt meant to be out of the box liek that :P
Their supposed to be the half guns battle/ half tradeskiller class :P
Not some good at everything warrier :P
-Crono
yeah but to access some of that stuff PEs gotta drug heavily, whereas there respective classes dont
virgil caine
09-07-04, 21:48
But their not warriors or commandos :D :D :D
their the avarage normal human type in the game. Some have trained and gotten themselvs very very good at the class, but it isnt meant to be out of the box liek that :P
Their supposed to be the half guns battle/ half tradeskiller class :P
Not some good at everything warrier :P
-Crono
Take a bunch of "average Joes", you know the type: farmers, tradesmen, office workers and give then weapons and training. Happened once, they took over the world and made us who we are, They were called Romans.
Underground
09-07-04, 21:49
yeah but to access some of that stuff PEs gotta drug heavily, whereas there respective classes dont
If your a PE, and you dont use drugs, then your missing out on their main ''toy'' imo
My PE's always on 3 drugs, and he's lowtech rifles lol, i have access to inquisition 4 armour, self cast shelter, dura 3 vest, heavy dura boots, and a capped terminator, jeez, start looking into your chars options, and then look at how much they expand with drugs. So what, drugs are needed, my tank uses drugs, my monk uses drugs, my spy uses drugs, my PE uses drugs, and im sure most if not all of the top end PVPers across the servers use atleast 1 drug for the huge boosts they give...
Dont forget that you also get self cast shelter, and level 2 armour with a 'cookie' PE setup, thats better defence then a tank for a few minutes...
Take a bunch of "average Joes", you know the type: farmers, tradesmen, office workers and give then weapons and training. Happened once, they took over the world and made us who we are, They were called Romans.
Roman office workers, shit man they WERE advanced back in their day eh :p
Take a bunch of "average Joes", you know the type: farmers, tradesmen, office workers and give then weapons and training. Happened once, they took over the world and made us who we are, They were called Romans.
yea man, but common, this is a friggen game, they have made diff classes instead.
Your thinking would fit if there was just 1 class and you trained hard and chose your path of training, be it physical strength to make you big and strong, or tradeskills and uch...
they have classes for a reason, every PE seens to pick it then seem dissapointed that they cant be some crazy battle commando with it that they werent intendded to be, so they try to get it changed.
-Crono
yeah sure drugs cn be used, and i dont have any qualms with that, my MC PE uses 3, but for a PE to be effective you either need to drug up or be VERY good, theres no middle ground, i know tons of good tanks and monks that dont touch drugs and are still very effective
yeah sure drugs cn be used, and i dont have any qualms with that, my MC PE uses 3, but for a PE to be effective you either need to drug up or be VERY good, theres no middle ground, i know tons of good tanks and monks that dont touch drugs and are still very effective
why should a avrage PE be able to stand up to a specialized battle class in a toe to te match anyways? (given skill on bolth players is equal) :/
Some can, because they have busted their asses playing this game and becoming really skilled.
yeah they should be able to stand up to them, im not saying they should kick there arse up and down PP.
to beat a tank hands down you gotta be in the top 10-20% of PE players, to beat a PE as a tank, you just gotta know how to click the buttons, not a PE is what, 2nd or 3rd combat class after a APU mebbe, that dont seem right to me
yeah they should be able to stand up to them, im not saying they should kick there arse up and down PP.
to beat a tank hands down you gotta be in the top 10-20% of PE players, to beat a PE as a tank, you just gotta know how to click the buttons, not a PE is what, 2nd or 3rd combat class after a APU mebbe, that dont seem right to me
Why should they?
A tank after the battle cant go and repair/construct/reacherch/hack, and if they do, they are gimped really bad in speed or aiming.
They should not be able to win 50% of the time against a batle specialized class if bolth players have the same playing skill.
-Crono
hehe this started as a idea about parachutes lol...
ok yeah if both players have the same skills then the tank should win. thats not what im saying. Lets convert skill to a percentage. if a tank has 50% skill, then it takes a PE of 95%+ to beat one, its about the same for a APU, theres no PPUs here. now what about a APU, he can go win a fight VS and go back and ress/const/poke not repp and a APU is a battle class...
hehe this started as a idea about parachutes lol...
ok yeah if both players have the same skills then the tank should win. thats not what im saying. Lets convert skill to a percentage. if a tank has 50% skill, then it takes a PE of 95%+ to beat one, its about the same for a APU, theres no PPUs here. now what about a APU, he can go win a fight VS and go back and ress/const/poke not repp and a APU is a battle class...
Yea, but APU's without the benifit of cover to cast and use their non LOS Psy Mods, they usually lose to a tank with a Paw or a Epic Gat cannon. Unless their a Hybrid and also using deflectors and shelters and damage boosters and such. (wait, PE's get dmg boost acsess too dont they :P )
-Crono
yeah but a PE with the benefit of cover and buffs still looses...
yeah but a PE with the benefit of cover and buffs still looses...
Cover was really only a help to a APU since they dont need line of sight :P
well vs a tank having somewhere to hide and heal helps :p
shodanjr_gr
09-07-04, 22:22
now what about a APU, he can go win a fight VS and go back and ress/const/poke not repp and a APU is a battle class...
Well i am sorry to break this to you but as an APU you can barely afford any INT points if u dont want ur ROF to be gimped ;)
true true, but it is possible none the less, and if i want a PE to be PvP viable its not like i got mountains of points to play with, i can cap aiming on a Pain Easer and have 90 hack, but then theres no Psi Use, which isnt a good thing
virgil caine
09-07-04, 22:29
Yea, but APU's without the benifit of cover to cast and use their non LOS Psy Mods, they usually lose to a tank with a Paw or a Epic Gat cannon. Unless their a Hybrid and also using deflectors and shelters and damage boosters and such. (wait, PE's get dmg boost acsess too dont they :P )
-Crono
Yeah, its nothing to spend 10 seconds, while a speed gatling is chewing you to pieces and you have to stand still, casting damage boost. I just want stealth 1 back so I can slip past DOY bots. This has become another bash PE's thread. Ok, just where does it end, whats next, S/D ?
You seem to have the idea that most PE's want extra things to make them uber, thats not true in my case, I just want some of the things that enhanced my game back.
no no, i dont want them nerfed at all, i just diddnt want this turning into another thread where somne tries to rally troops to make KK make a PE some special comando class :P
lol let PE's have the lowest stealth back, or make a lower one that can fool most mobs, but has a darker blur and shows on area map :P
-Crono
i havent seen a make PE's ubAr thread in a while...most of the PEs i have seen posting just want something not necessarily ubarness, yet they still get a ton of people teeling them to stfu lol
virgil caine
09-07-04, 22:41
All i'm saying is that stealth 1 had little value in pvp, simply did not last long enough. But for other uses, its loss has severely diminished my game playing pleasure and isn't that what we are all here for. Whoo Hoo I could run past you in an op stealthed and when it ran out I had the choice of waiting to restealth while taking hits or running and hoping I could get away.
I am a pistol PE so I have little experience with rifles and sniping but did 10 sec stealth really make PE's unbeatable. Or just the challange that a spy in the same situation would be.
Ok, can't really be arsed to read most of this thread... its the same bullshit of people knowing fuck all about PEs and slagging everyone off who plays a PE. But basically, one comment that always really pisses me off is saying that because PEs were cited in the manual as "Joats" people think they should be now. I mean wtf? Have you looked at the rest of the manual? And if your information isn't coming from the manual then where the fuck is it coming from? Because I don't remember many recent announcements by KK to say that PEs are indeed Joats, and their recent removal of stealth (not saying that I'm against it, just using it to make my point) shows that they do not belive PEs to be Joats anymore. Also, the fact that they level fast is completely moot when you are refering to PvP prowess, as most classes can cap in a week if you really want to.
PEs should not be weaker than other classes in PvP (they are not atm, but some people evidently want them to be) because they were once considered the "average joe" of the Neocron world.... NC is a PvP game and to have one class out of the 4 that is weaker than the others is completely retarded. On the subject of drugs, if you use more than 2 then personally I think that you are stupid, I mean how can you even pretend to be able to use that setup in a real situation in NC, like if you were ambushed. The best that you can do is duel in NF ffs. Classes should NOT be forced to use drugs to be able to keep up with the other classes, and comparing a setup using drugs to one not using drugs is another damn stupid thing to do, a Tank using three drugs could also be pretty damn uber.
Also, for the record that "Make the libby better" thread a while ago was not asking for it to be as uber as it was previously, it was asking for it to be boosted to be actually useable, as at the time it was far, far below its rifle counterpart (the Pain Easer) in useability.
virgil caine
09-07-04, 22:55
Wow Judge. everyting I wanted to say and more. Hats off to ya !!!!!
Whats the point of having classes that can tradeskill/use vehicals and such compared to classes that cant without almost being gimped to uselessness, then have them just as strong in PvP equalness? PE and Spy are the really only main classes that can get high tradeskills and still be not super gimped. being able to do that would make those clases JOAT's
I rember that Libby thread man, most the people wanted it "Back", most were just setteling on "back but reduced" but the general feel of that thread was that they thought that a lowtech pistol being as strong as it was was fine, and to heck with balance :P
-Crono
Any PE that can use a vehicle is gimped. Every single Dex point matters, and if someone tells you different then their setup for PvP sucks (like mine, I have vehicle skill, but I accept the fact that my character is at a disadvantage in PvP).
The reason that the libby was so dangerous was the infamous health bounce bug, which was later fixed by making the damage serverside or something or other... Personally, my remembrances of that thread were that "Since this bug has been squished can you boost the Libby back to where it was stats-wise before the nerf".
Being a JOAT, is very very hard to actually pin down, some people say that its being able to use x number of skills, but then why isn't the Melee tank or a spy classed as a Joat, as they can both use certain skills whilst effecting their PvP abilities just as much as using Vehicle skill effects a PE's PvP ability.
Gimped compared to other non Veh PE's but still usable, a tank would become a pivoting turret. ><
doesnt it say something about what the classes are meant for at character creation? (seriously a question, its been a long time)
-Crono
yeah but it just states what the characters good skills are and poor skills, like the spy goes something like
"With their high intelligence spies make great constructors, researchers or hackers. They also have the dexterity to master all rifles and pistols, although they do have limited psi use"
yea, and if their not always Stealthed, how do they fair against equal skill APU's or Tanks latley? (not acually shure myself)
-Crono
well i cant really comment there, ive never had a Spy at PvP level so i dont really know why i bothered posting...
i think if they got the element of surprise, or a PPU then there good, Healing Light does shit loads of damage
yea, and if their not always Stealthed, how do they fair against equal skill APU's or Tanks latley? (not acually shure myself)
-Crono
Very well, it has been proved that Spies and PEs have almost exactly (within like 1% of damage resist) the same setups using the same amount of drugs on the PE and Spy.
Gimped compared to other non Veh PE's but still usable, a tank would become a pivoting turret. ><
doesnt it say something about what the classes are meant for at character creation? (seriously a question, its been a long time)
-Crono
A melee tank would find it alot easier to use Vehicles than PEs do, as they have so many spare DEX points, and past a certain stage points put into agility help almost nothing.
Very well, it has been proved that Spies and PEs have almost exactly (within like 1% of damage resist) the same setups using the same amount of drugs on the PE and Spy.
A melee tank would find it alot easier to use Vehicles than PEs do, as they have so many spare DEX points, and past a certain stage points put into agility help almost nothing.
I havent played a PE in a long long time, but their low on Dext points even if they stay low tech? (PE equivalent of a melee tank)
-Crono
pretty much, you need 164 i thin k to cap dam on a PE, mebbe not tho ill have to have a look, then youve got to take into account to get a decent con setup you cant spec to much ath, i usually go 70/70 ath agi, so you got some to play with, but not too much
i got this setup i wanna try but i need a SA and a rifle kami, it'll probly be shit but i guess ill never know lol :D
yikes, almost as hard as tanks then, to cap dmg on a CS you need max dumped Str points into H-C at lvl 93ish STR and all imps into it (discounting Herc, i got one now but i still wouldnt consider it a standard in setups cause most have allot of trouble getting one still) But aiming keeps increasing, which for H-C is key, everyones tactics for fighting a tank is mak them lose lock on them with the CS (im being drasticly broad here, i know theres more to it) cause aiming takes a second to lock, without a good lock a CS hits for shit amount of hits. Anyways, i cant rember the last fight against a PE where i wasnt just Para'd with a low lvl para and Dmg boosted and just shot up. Not shure if things have changed though, i know allot of tank melee weapons have had req's majorly increased, maby Para has too (i hope >< )
-Crono
like i said, i might be wrong, been a while since i played my low tech RC PE, i never used para, and the only time i got a chance to use DB, and still have enough health health left/still working legs made it pretty much useless. btw, any one know what RoF cap on a PE is?
just make PE PA so spys cant use it, then have all other PAs open to all classes... problem fixed. you'll have rifle and pistol tanks again, spys cant throw on PE PA4 to get the early boost, a HC PE would be more viable... it would change the cookie cutter effect that everyone seems to hate yet want.... :wtf:
The class reqs being put on PAs was mostly to stop tanks and PEs from using spy PA and getting over powered x-ray resist rather then stopping spys from getting a low level PA boost.
I havent played a PE in a long long time, but their low on Dext points even if they stay low tech? (PE equivalent of a melee tank)
Yeah, even with lowtech as you have to pump more points into agility to make up for the lack of ath in cons due to high resists/hlt.
can anyone of the people who are complaining about this apparent "boost" to PEs tell me how exactly this would make them uber and overpowered?
Oh common let this post die :P no point bringing it back up from the bottom like that :P
Everyone thinks their own class should be stronger then it is and tries to make KK change it to do more then was intended.
New toys for a class are great, but not when they take the place of other classes roles.
-Crono
I think its a good idea and would suit PEs well. PEs are the toughest class in the game but they are easily good eough to hold their own while the tanks arive being driven by the spies.
As for the stealth matter, PEs and stealth was the biggest pile of crap ever. The stealth tool is one of the stongest lines of defense. Even 10 seconds is enough time for a heal to set in, a medkit to do its thing, or to gain a tactical advantage to an enemy. PEs who already have strong defense and pretty high offense shouldnt need it, and by using it only throw the balance off further. Its a good thing those times are gone.
virgil caine
10-07-04, 23:19
Alright if PE lose stealth because they already have too much resistance then take away the xray resistance in the spy PA.
If spys need special consideration because they have gimped con it makes no sense to give them uber radiation resistance in thire PA that PE has to gimp other resists to cover.
Alright if PE lose stealth because they already have too much resistance then take away the xray resistance in the spy PA.
If spys need special consideration because they have gimped con it makes no sense to give them uber radiation resistance in thire PA that PE has to gimp other resists to cover.
I think a more elegant solution to the spies with PE defence problem would be to increase the TL of Shelter a little, it would only need a rise of 2 or 3 TLs to stop most (if not all) spies from using it, and would thus remove a lot of their defence.
Yo do you people think that us PE's want to use melee weapons? melee weapons is the lamest takes no skill and that damn shocker.....
I want a gun that kills people and does posion damage
edit: oh and whats the point in using a non rare H-C weapon that does shit damage O_o PE's are for players who like pistols and rifles imo PE's where never meant to use any heavy combat weapons
Since you like that Wyatt, Lil T, Maybe a rare Nail Gun is in order, yes? =D With the poison dots and all.
Since you like that Wyatt, Lil T, Maybe a rare Nail Gun is in order, yes? =D With the poison dots and all.
Would love that :p and have it knock people about it would be the PE's version of an annoying weapon much like melee tanks shocker
Oh wow, have you realised the seriousness of this situation? Yeah i guess you have.. PE's would become the most annoying class in the game.. and would thereafter have world dominance on everyone! Simply because no one likes getting shot by those..
Especially while hunting and hacking with those cyber guard doohickies around. While hunting your aim gets thrown off a bit. While hacking your body gets pushed back 30 feet.
I mean the enemy would litteraly toss his weapon on the floor and raise a white flag and say "Fuck You!". Oh please KK, make it happen!
Maybe a gun that fires bullets that bouce around the room and may hit many people
actully I think a anti heal mod would make PE's feared and usefull PE's do small amount of damage so its hard to bring people down if a ppu is healing them. Before people start saying it would be overpowered how would it? a tank is not really gonna heal him self mid fight unless hes melee which are much much more powerfull than a pe. Apu can't heal and if you got a lowtech PE and you fight another lowtech PE you will know what its like to have a 20 minute fight and Pe's would be able to kill a ppu if they kept firing
Don't know if you've played UT, but in that game there is a gun that fires round thin shards of [insert metal substance]. And these shards ricochet off the walls and what not until their velocity dies down or the shards manage to hit a target. Now that would be cool.
Don't know if you've played UT, but in that game there is a gun that fires round thin shards of [insert metal substance]. And these shards ricochet off the walls and what not until their velocity dies down or the shards manage to hit a target. Now that would be cool.
Yea, for a Big H-C Cannon :P
Yea, for a Big H-C Cannon :P
I don't know man.. The Ripper (http://www.unrealtournament.com/utgoty/weapons.php) Seems more like a pistol type weapon to me =D
I guess we could have a Flak Cannon, wow these guns are ingenious..
Ive playet UT 2003-2004 I know that that thing us HUGE man :P has a big recoil when shooiting a ball of shrapnel too :P
-Crono
Sorry I've just wet myself thinking about having these weapons implemented in the game. I'll be AFK for 15 minutes, im a big mess. I gotta go..
:D time to play bit of UT2004 :D :D :D
I think PE's should be able to rezz people but take alot longer doing it
I think PE's should be able to rezz people but take alot longer doing it
yea that would be cool man, but maby have it take some of your life away, kinda like a life transfer, so your bolth vunerable for a little bit. dont want to fully take away from PPU's, but being able to have a PE do it also just much slower and more dangerously would be cool.
-Crono
Well so many times I have seen some one get wiped out and just looked down at them thinking it would be cool if I could rezz them
Birdman[H.E.]
11-07-04, 05:53
PEs should be able to res, also Stealth 3, and also use CS capped
the PPUS should be able to use Pain Easer Rifle and Bat Bones so they can go melee, since they have no defense
The spies should be able to wear INQ set 4 and rare Melee Weapons.
Then the APU should be able to Cast shelter on him and revive himself.
The tank is K all he need is 100 INT points so he can be tradeskillers.
Come on lets make a better neocron together..
OMG
I've said the same thing on the forums so many times...
Its not the range of weapons you get access to, its the best weapon you can get to versus the best weapon another person can get to. So what Pes can use 600 weapons, they all suck but the 8 weapons which deal moderate damage, easily outdamaged by a CS. Also 4 out of those 8 weapons require heavy drugging so we are kidna left with 4 weapons to use, then split it between pistol and rifle. You get 2 weapons you can use for each subclass, 4 weapons you can use with drugging.
Whiles tanks without drugs or psi buffs,
Can use CS
Devourer
Moonstriker
Malediction
Ravager
Thats 5 weapons for 1 subclass without drugs, and they all pretty much equal or beat PE weapons. You can do the same for melee, also HC has god a AoE bonus especially good for PvM and PvP. Also we all know the stupid electroshocking fuck melee tanks get, so no PEs weapon range is in no way better.
They also get better defence; because simply they don't need to keep buffs to have full defence. Hence tanks are officially better.
While PEs are just as good, they are the hardest class to use around , most expensive and most underpowered. Also screw the easy to level thing, this is the end game we are talking about, what about pluto players? Also they level about the same, remember that a tank with base 90 STR is just as effective, so is a monk with 90psi and so on.
There are three ways to fix the PE as it stands:
Give back stealth
Give them a new toy that would make them useful for solo or op fighting
Remove shelter/deflecter foreign cast, raise shelter to tl 30
Also with all of you who say abusing stealth is bad, why is a tactical retreat so bad, the problem is Neocron has no strategy, and all revolves around blasting shit out of each other <---> this close, and again with spies easily using stealth, is it not true they abuse it as well?
on another note, rifles need to have its damage balanced, its too pathetic at the moment, redeemer, healing light, and so on all need boosts. Well there are about 3 rifle PEs on Uranus...
And I think class restrictions are silly, you say PEs are JOATS yet they can't access things they have stats for? like the Tank PA or the stealth tool, also let me remind you that Dex is the strongest skill, so using psi or str as primary weapon will gimp you, which is totally wrong for a JOAT.
However on the parachute idea, I dont' see how it helps giving the space, and the speed people can travel, I think having a jetpack that allow us to jump very high for a short amount of time is great idea.
On the other hand my favourite character is my HC PE which can research/construct (tl50), hack, recycle, poke, drive, cannon, mount guns, repair and still pack a big punch with a capped tangent plasma cannon, with good psi buffs, AoE cannons are also usefull for PvM, and you get to destroy vehicles with rockets. Uses redflash and beast works very well thats the JOAT at the best, I can make my own drugs and small stuff. I've killed many people with this PE, simply cuz they spend the first 6 seconds laughing at me :P Little do they know he packs 520 HP with a strong defence, and have enough firepower to take out most classes but the gentank. Oh right I can stil parashock and damageboost.
Birdman[H.E.]
11-07-04, 06:48
What you are asking for is impossible, you are asking that a normal human being to be better than a genetic created creature for killing.
Besides HC tanks Speed was nerfed to hell, they are more like walking turrets now.
I play a Spy, i can tell you its really fun, but its depressing to be rifler, sometimes you feel useless in op wars, unless you are hunting droners...
Rifles need a boost, mostly of all the Pain Easer, that way PEs will be more balanced than they are atm, and other rifles should also be boosted a bit, its a joke spies pistols are better than spies rifles this days.
Anyway man dont dream, if you like the tank go play one, but dont complain about the PE, couse its one of the best chars in the game, ATM all PEs need is Rifle Boost, as pistol PE is great. Dont fuck arround me with stealth or so, a PE never needed one to kill everybody.
yeah what the hell is with the speed nerf, I think both rifles and HC got slower...
I understand what you mean I agree that PEs shouldn't be better then tanks, but thats what stealth was for to make us distinct from tanks. Therefore a new toy is needed now. Thats one way to balance it. There literally no point in having a character that is a weak tank, and requires annoying drugs and buffs to use and also suck in the team play situation.
Stealth is cheap or not, you can't ignore a fact that it is an asset to balance.
yeah what the hell is with the speed nerf, I think both rifles and HC got slower...
I understand what you mean I agree that PEs shouldn't be better then tanks, but thats what stealth was for to make us distinct from tanks. Therefore a new toy is needed now. Thats one way to balance it. There literally no point in having a character that is a weak tank, and requires annoying drugs and buffs to use and also suck in the team play situation.
Stealth is cheap or not, you can't ignore a fact that it is an asset to balance.
Tradeskills?
If you wanted a PURE DMG class, why did u pick a PE? :lol:
Rifles are great (need a boost, was always pathetic that Pistols OD'd them) and so are Pistols, but dont even try to argue that they should OD a Cannon or come close to its dmg per hit. :P
-Crono
Tradeskills?
If you wanted a PURE DMG class, why did u pick a PE? :lol:
Rifles are great (need a boost, was always pathetic that Pistols OD'd them) and so are Pistols, but dont even try to argue that they should OD a Cannon or come close to its dmg per hit. :P
-Crono
oooooooohhhh Don't get me started on rifles...
I'm still confused why a small number of complete-and-total-tits
have to arrive and put things all out of whack with JOAT!!11 or Normal Human crap if thats the case why does a pencil-neck run about with highpower weaponry?, blah where was I?
Pistols are fine sod them; Give rifles a boost.
Fix the Termis Ammo mods and Give me one on Pluto FFS!!!.
Maybe up the rof on the PE and/or Termi. (slightly)
reduce or remove the runspeed nerf it's a rifle not a shoulder mounted ICBM.
will Edit add anything I forget.
Just some ajustments need to be made here.
PE-
Lib
Judge
Exec
ROLH
Earp
Slasher
BOH
PE
Disruptor
First Love
HealingLight
SilentHunter (+Spirit Mod)
ROG
Termi
CS
Mal
Dev
Rav
Doomie
MooniePOB
POT
BOC
TBolt
ETempest
VR
Dentist
Peacemaker
1 drug
2 drugs
3 drugs
impossible
working on no rare drugs available. Working on using all the implants in the required main skill. Using PA where available.
Tradeskills?
If you wanted a PURE DMG class, why did u pick a PE? :lol:
Rifles are great (need a boost, was always pathetic that Pistols OD'd them) and so are Pistols, but dont even try to argue that they should OD a Cannon or come close to its dmg per hit. :P
-Crono
I think you are missing the point here. I said a toy to balance us out with tanks, not to over damage them, do you read? Tradeskills...maybe try a spy, tradeskills lie in INT and DEX, spies cap 100 on both. Think before you type. So PE is meant to be a commoner who just suck, well lets delete them then shall we, since everyone gets to pick who they are.
The fact is that PEs cap at 80 dex so you cant expect them to do as much damage as a class that caps at 100, it take 7 times (I think, cant remember exactly at what xp pes cap dex) as much xp to get those last 20 levels, so you want to nerf spies armour and shelter eh? Spy PA has x ray resist purely because spies dont have the con points to give them resists in more then 2 types, spies cant use inq armour without drugs and since PEs dont want to have to use drugs we will presume they cant, shelter requires constant drugging to use so in that lies the penalty of using shelter, if a spy wants to use inq armour in the first place he has yo remove +dex imps and add +str imps which also give -dex and you also have to drug it with 2 drugs or give up 3 +dex slots so if you want to wear pa3 on a capped dex spy you have to have a SA and relog after each gr and eat 2 dex drugs to get it on again after dying and if your not capped you ahve to drug dex aswell to wear pa3 and relog then ,also you need to drug to use tl 115 weapons.
I dont know about you but I think thats more gimped then any dex based PE, still doesnt get the same defense and doesnt do much more damage then him and you want to nerf spy drug whores so non-drugging PEs feel strong again?
If you want to nerf a drug whore class nerf your own drugwhore class as its PEs drugging to slashers and exec and HLs that are what make PEs hard to balance, if they didnt exist all KK would have to do to balance PEs would be to add a little more damage to judges and RoGs and it would be done with.
I think you are missing the point here. I said a toy to balance us out with tanks, not to over damage them, do you read? Tradeskills...maybe try a spy, tradeskills lie in INT and DEX, spies cap 100 on both. Think before you type. So PE is meant to be a commoner who just suck, well lets delete them then shall we, since everyone gets to pick who they are.
NO
Their not worthless in the lease, why are you talking about them like Weapons dmg and being a commando is all they were aimed at? Its one of their Specialities along with a tradeskill or 2 of your choice. They should not do dmg on par with tanks, thats what i said, i diddnt say u wanted them to OD tanks. Dont tell me that crap that a PE isnt supposed to tradeskill either, my beast weapons came from PE constructors. Spies may be able to do it better but in a battle their also weaker (ugg, heres where i bring up the part that PE's can now do bolth at a pretty good lvl, just not as goot at 1 like the Spy or the Tank, and for some reason everyone who plays a PE disagrees :P )
Rifels should be boosted, they should be decently better then pistols (which dont need a boost at all), but pistols should be better at close close range with their fast aiming.
-Crono
I think you are missing the point here. I said a toy to balance us out with tanks, not to over damage them, do you read? Tradeskills...maybe try a spy, tradeskills lie in INT and DEX, spies cap 100 on both. Think before you type. So PE is meant to be a commoner who just suck, well lets delete them then shall we, since everyone gets to pick who they are.
As long as you're drugging up to HL/SH or Exec/Slasher then you are balanced with tanks. It's only PEs using Judge/RoG and below which need a boost.
As long as you're drugging up to HL/SH or Exec/Slasher then you are balanced with tanks. It's only PEs using Judge/RoG and below which need a boost.
yea, As it should be. They should be close to tanks, but not exactly on par dmg wise, if so, why the heck did anyone pick a Tank? (the specialized Dmg class that cant do much else)
We dont even get to say "atleast we got PA" because the tanks toy got spread around to every other class because they wanted more toys ;P
-Crono
without any drugs can a PE win 1 on 1 with a tank? or any other class for that matter? at same skill level, both capped, with similar quality weapons?
virgil caine
11-07-04, 19:45
The subject of this thread continues to change.
You ask "why choose a PE if you wanted a pure damage dealer". Well the point is: I chose a PE before all the Nerfs that have come about. I simply want to play my character as I started playing, thats the whole point. All this changing things in midgame is unfair. When we all started playing this game we all said something to the effect: "wow what a cool game, best I've ever seen". I agree, so why not leave things alone and let us play. If PE's were so overpowered why were there so few of us. I've never stood in a crowd made up of a majority of PE's.
Since I have played this game, my PE has done many things but as you near capping, to compete with others you must lom to pure combat or you simply cannot compete. All this JOAT talk is crap. A jack of all trades is a master of none but is able to do many things, with class restrictions a PE is not a jack of all trades but a gimped player, no more no less.
without any drugs can a PE win 1 on 1 with a tank? or any other class for that matter? at same skill level, both capped, with similar quality weapons?
Yes, depending on the setups, and a Rifle PE is good for long range, Not some 1v1 head to head BS, why would you do that? Thats a bad way to balance anything since the Rifel PE is meant to be semi ranged, while burst cannons and pistols are close range. But the Pistols do too much dmg that Rifels are gimped in comparison, that needs the fix.
They were Joat's But all this class restriction crap KK have been doing is messing Everything up.
The greatness of this game is that you if u wanted even if you werent the specialized class, u could skill for other things. Like the PE use to be able to use PA 1.
Anyaways, this should eb fixed, not make the PE more of a commando class.
PE's were never hugly strong unless u rolled your char during the first introduction of the Libby. that or when they had stealth.
nothing should have class restrictions, they should just raise the skill req's to mkae it hard for other classes they diddnt want using it to use it.
Everyone gets soo pissed when the qord Joat is brought up, but thats what they were before the class restriction crap. Spy's are also, just they lean more to the tech/tradeskill end and less to the PvP side then PE's.
-Crono
The subject of this thread continues to change.
You ask "why choose a PE if you wanted a pure damage dealer". Well the point is: I chose a PE before all the Nerfs that have come about. I simply want to play my character as I started playing, thats the whole point. All this changing things in midgame is unfair. When we all started playing this game we all said something to the effect: "wow what a cool game, best I've ever seen". I agree, so why not leave things alone and let us play. If PE's were so overpowered why were there so few of us. I've never stood in a crowd made up of a majority of PE's.
Since I have played this game, my PE has done many things but as you near capping, to compete with others you must lom to pure combat or you simply cannot compete. All this JOAT talk is crap. A jack of all trades is a master of none but is able to do many things, with class restrictions a PE is not a jack of all trades but a gimped player, no more no less.
You took the words out of my mouth I'm sick of the tank players the monk players comming in and saying NO pe's are meant to be totaly shit and should not get any new toys. PE's use to be very easy to setup but as weapons have been boosted over time and things getting nerfed The PE feels it the most. Everything that changes in this game the PE must lomm in most cases melee tanks now doing posion damage but tanks having 100 con don't have to worry they have or should have a large ammout of posion. With every change in this game it feels like my PE is getting shafted and I have to lomm to try and keep up. I don't stand a chance against a melee tank using a POB I might have to lomm to rifles and I don't want to do that
If PE's were so overpowered why were there so few of us. I've never stood in a crowd made up of a majority of PE's.
And that bit right there ^^^^^ :rolleyes:
Yes, depending on the setups, and a Rifle PE is good for long range, Not some 1v1 head to head BS, why would you do that? Thats a bad way to balance anything since the Rifel PE is meant to be semi ranged, while burst cannons and pistols are close range. But the Pistols do too much dmg that Rifels are gimped in comparison, that needs the fix.
They were Joat's But all this class restriction crap KK have been doing is messing Everything up.
The greatness of this game is that you if u wanted even if you werent the specialized class, u could skill for other things. Like the PE use to be able to use PA 1.
Anyaways, this should eb fixed, not make the PE more of a commando class.
PE's were never hugly strong unless u rolled your char during the first introduction of the Libby. that or when they had stealth.
nothing should have class restrictions, they should just raise the skill req's to mkae it hard for other classes they diddnt want using it to use it.
Everyone gets soo pissed when the qord Joat is brought up, but thats what they were before the class restriction crap. Spy's are also, just they lean more to the tech/tradeskill end and less to the PvP side then PE's.
-Crono
As long as this is true. As long as any combat specced character can go up against the other and have skill be the determining factor, then yes, they're balanced. If 2 people of equal skill at the class are playing with everything else even and it's a 50-50 shot at who will win, then it's balanced.
Anything less is not.
As long as this is true. As long as any combat specced character can go up against the other and have skill be the determining factor, then yes, they're balanced. If 2 people of equal skill at the class are playing with everything else even and it's a 50-50 shot at who will win, then it's balanced.
Anything less is not.
Its not supposed to be like that, where do u get off even thinking that? o_O
APU and Tanks should be the strongest dmg wise, with APU's being even more dmging then Tanks, when they have some cover their almost unbeatable, Tanks are the slose range specialist, any other class at close range shouldnt be able to stand a chance. Ranged Is where Rifles "Should" be the best, unless a tank got lucky with some slow ass Mal Aiming. A Pistol PE shouldnt be as strong at close range as a tank, Pistols are like the weaker version of a rifle, but preform faster at close range.
If your trying to determine balance by a 1v1 close quarters combat match bewtween equally skilled people then your thinking is wrong man. Because 1 is 1 classes speciality, whereas trying to hit from across a NF map with a CS, i may hit with 20% of my bullets, where the rifel PE/Spy will hit with all of them or close to it.
-Crono
Why do you need parachutes? You cant get fall damage anyway O_o
Its not supposed to be like that, where do u get off even thinking that? o_O
APU and Tanks should be the strongest dmg wise, with APU's being even more dmging then Tanks, when they have some cover their almost unbeatable, Tanks are the slose range specialist, any other class at close range shouldnt be able to stand a chance. Ranged Is where Rifles "Should" be the best, unless a tank got lucky with some slow ass Mal Aiming. A Pistol PE shouldnt be as strong at close range as a tank, Pistols are like the weaker version of a rifle, but preform faster at close range.
If your trying to determine balance by a 1v1 close quarters combat match bewtween equally skilled people then your thinking is wrong man. Because 1 is 1 classes speciality, whereas trying to hit from across a NF map with a CS, i may hit with 20% of my bullets, where the rifel PE/Spy will hit with all of them or close to it.
-Crono
Where did I say it was close quarters combat? all I said was Equal skill at the class, all capped, with access to similarly quality weapons, it should be a 50-50 on who wins. and thats the way it should be. Knowing what range your weapon is best at would fall under "skill". So once again;
If everythign is equal, Skill, Weapons and capped characters, no drugs.. if true balance is there between the base of the characters, the outcome should be 50-50 on who will win. Anything else is unbalanced.
Well I just think exatcly what vettero said in my sig. I really can't be bothered to explain "why" again.
also chrono you don't want me to go and explain why range is useless in Neocron again do you? Maybe I would pay you a million if fights actually happened in range. Bring it.
I know it all sounds good in paper, but face reality damnit its right in front of you the game. the PE population is the weakest, and unless its pluto this whole JOAT crap is useless for tradeskills.
Also some people need to think out of the godamn NF box, just because a exe PE can beat a tank or vice versa in NF does not mean shit. A tank does not require to drug or buff to be "as effecient or as powerfull" "does more damage" "more damage types" " can use AoE/stun", also people ineveitably forget once a PPU is in the equation Tanks/APUs rule. So again why play a PE godamnit damnit djnajbjndbldblabjjyuiovfwbefdn;p;
Where did I say it was close quarters combat? all I said was Equal skill at the class, all capped, with access to similarly quality weapons, it should be a 50-50 on who wins. and thats the way it should be. Knowing what range your weapon is best at would fall under "skill". So once again;
If everythign is equal, Skill, Weapons and capped characters, no drugs.. if true balance is there between the base of the characters, the outcome should be 50-50 on who will win. Anything else is unbalanced.
But where would you determin this balance? You never said close quarters, but where were you talking about, because thats is a determining factor.
if it is in a ring, then the Tank would win, as should be. if its across a feild then the Rifel PE should. The 2 classes cant use the same Guns, (well artleast) and if you mean just their best guns of the same sort of type then that could work, but it wont show 1 ounce of balance, because cannons are close range, Rifels are meant for long range, so their Dmg wont be that of a cannon, but they can aim and hit with acuracy from very far away, unlike a CS. And Pistols shouldnt be anywhere close to a Cannon anyways, its just the weapon a Dext based class can use if they want to be close ranged.
No 2 classes should be equal on 1 kind of play feild.
-Crono
[EDIT]
And nopt many fights happen at ranged yes, but if its an op way, you make yourself ranged, not everything should be balanced for a face to face 1v1 match.
And its your perogative to make a tradeskill only twink on a multi char server :P but the games class balance isnt gonna change because "you can just go make a pure tradeskill only mule"
-Crono
But where would you determin this balance?
if it is in a ring, then the Tank would win, as should be. if its across a feild then the Rifel PE should. The 2 classes cant use the same Guns, (well artleast) and if you mean just their best guns of the same sort of type then that could work, but it wont show 1 ounce of balance, because cannons are close range, Rifels are meant for long range, so their Dmg wont be that of a cannon, but they can aim and hit with acuracy from very far away, unlike a CS. And Pistols shouldnt be anywhere close to a Cannon anyways, its just the weapon a Dext based class can use if they want to be close ranged.
No 2 classes should be equal on 1 kind of play feild.
-Crono
You are ENTIRELY missing the point. I've explained it to the point where anyone else should be able to get it. You get anf F for this class, try again next time.
You are ENTIRELY missing the point. I've explained it to the point where anyone else should be able to get it. You get anf F for this class, try again next time.
What the hell is your problem, You seem to be trying to shove some wrong point down my throat. You just keep saying classes should be equal if they bolth use the same sort of weapons and have the same skill. That is 100% WRONG. ESPECIALLY since each class is good in specific types of play feilds, how are you not getting how big that throws off your point? @ classes should not be = dont mater where they are. this is a class based game, Ever play TFC for half-Life? Snipers are deadly from a range, but once that soldier gets across and up to them with his slow rockets, that at a range u can duck from, he rips the sniper a new hole. Balance is a Broad thing, and a PE "Should" be able to kill a Tank from range with a rifel if he stays ranged.
-Crono
But where would you determin this balance? You never said close quarters, but where were you talking about, because thats is a determining factor.
if it is in a ring, then the Tank would win, as should be. if its across a feild then the Rifel PE should. The 2 classes cant use the same Guns, (well artleast) and if you mean just their best guns of the same sort of type then that could work, but it wont show 1 ounce of balance, because cannons are close range, Rifels are meant for long range, so their Dmg wont be that of a cannon, but they can aim and hit with acuracy from very far away, unlike a CS. And Pistols shouldnt be anywhere close to a Cannon anyways, its just the weapon a Dext based class can use if they want to be close ranged.
No 2 classes should be equal on 1 kind of play feild.
-Crono
[EDIT]
And nopt many fights happen at ranged yes, but if its an op way, you make yourself ranged, not everything should be balanced for a face to face 1v1 match.
And its your perogative to make a tradeskill only twink on a multi char server :P but the games class balance isnt gonna change because "you can just go make a pure tradeskill only mule"
-Crono
1. Range fights severely low chance due to high runspeed, small zones and clipping range. Even in an op fight situation its very pointless, rifles versus malediction/moonstriker? you bet...
2. Leveling a researcher spy is faster then making a PE researcher.
3. Pistol do too much damage and shoot way too far I agree.
4. The damage is far from balance as of now.
Lets put it this way
Solo Close Range: Tanks>PE Spies>PE
Team play: Everyone> PE (defence reliant on psi)
Long Ranged/spying Spies>PE
AoE Tanks>PE
Tradeskills: PPU/Spy> PE
JOAT Spy> PE
Usage in Op Fights: Everyone> PE
go ahead...wheres the balance? I put PEs down because I rate "ease of use of other classes" as well, in a real fight nobody is going to stop because your buffs or drugs run out, its not NF buddy.
We don't match other classes in the ease of use, yet we are the weakest class even though we are the hardest to play...
I think chrono you just need to snap out of the whole paper/theory thing and think the current game state.
Why are spies better at close range then a PE?
PE's defence is pretty good with shelters and deflects, and then they can Para and DB, you HAVE to take that into account.
Pistols are either too strong or Rifels are too weak. i dont wanna say nerf anything cause i dont know what they are like, but whatever is done, Rifels should be much much much stronger and better for ranged then pistols, pistols should miss much more then rifels too. Rifels should get a boost to make them very usefull, but a rifle to the face or a cannon to the face, there should be no equality there.
-Crono
Why are spies better at close range then a PE?
PE's defence is pretty good with shelters and deflects, and then they can Para and DB, you HAVE to take that into account.
Pistols are either too strong or Rifels are too weak. i dont wanna say nerf anything cause i dont know what they are like, but whatever is done, Rifels should be much much much stronger and better for ranged then pistols, pistols should miss much more then rifels too. Rifels should get a boost to make them very usefull, but a rifle to the face or a cannon to the face, there should be no equality there.
-Crono
I agree with that rifles suck too much and pistols are too good, those need to be fixed before any sort of radical change is made. The thing is cannons and pistols can shoot a very decent range as well, usually in the range of where you would fire a rifle a cannon or pistol can hit you, and thats just wrong.
yeah how can you beat a solo spy? you are a PE using a exe with 2 drugs and 4 buffs runnin your good spies about to lose, stealths away. comes back later to fight you again.
Spies do ridiculous damage with slasher and exe, carry stealth and can use shelter. The best spies parashock you...anyways if they get db, they stealth and you can do nothing...
Yea, but Stealth aside, thats a cheepass lame tactic to use to to duck from a fight :P thats why no one wants PE's to have it. not because they dont deserve stealth, but because it just gets abused in PvP, maby Stealth should be changed so u cant stealth up while being shot at, then give it back to the PE's. Any class could win with stealth, just duck out in stealth, heal up then jump yor still dmged enemie, Rince repeate.
If only there was a way to make spies better at Tech type weapons,a nd PE's better at non tech related ones that relied mostly on your own skill to shoot. that would be awsome :/
-Crono
PEs are crap right now, on the four char servers there is absolutely no point to playing one, the leveling thing is also bullshit, so what if they level faster, me I'm hoping BDoY will fix everything.
Please no one also mis take what im saying as PE's shouldnt get new toys :P
Everyone would like more lovin for their class, nuthing wrong with that, but as the origonal post said, and what it wanted, brings a PE specific thing that compleatly crosses into another classes territory :P No toys for a class should be class specific that would be better suited for another class :P
maby give it to tank and PE, but 50% of the time the PE takes the risk of braking his legs apon landing :P
-Crono
PEs are crap right now, on the four char servers there is absolutely no point to playing one, the leveling thing is also bullshit, so what if they level faster, me I'm hoping BDoY will fix everything.
I heard that
Think I'm going to HAVE to reactivate my tank account if I want to kill anything these days
Really i just want to know why they boosted the CS
Prior boost i took about 50 damage now it's upto 70+ which is saft
/Waits for some fuck-nut too tell me to get a decent con setup..
oh well guess I'm in a fekkin rut for being a rifle pe :(
/me waves @ Crono..
kyle told me to tell you..
Tell Crono that in the fluff the tank is mass produced, and were used in human waves, dozens of them dieing for each warbot that they killed. Oh, and also tell him that they are in no way the "special forces" class according to the fluff, just the meat shield. Oh and it is impossible to balance the classes so one class is more dominant in one situation than the others, because a)the clipping plane in NC won't allow decent sniping b) the engine has a nasty habit of making people jump from place to place if they are far away (and they just appear as think black silhouettes) and lastly, c) people run to fast
sex
Dont have a clue what it means though :p he'd post it himself but he is inactive atm :(
/me waves @ Crono..
kyle told me to tell you..
Dont have a clue what it means though :p he'd post it himself but he is inactive atm :(
Mass produced has what to do with anything? They were genetically enhanced for combat, the speed at which it was done is pointless. If were just badly made meatsheilds, then PE's are just JOAT's, Common everyday office workers that picked up arms to fight, and shouldnt be that good either cause their not combat trained. Its real easy to take parts of the RP history and bend them to your liking ;P
and the clipping pane for the game IS pretty good, i can shoot my MAL far as hell from across the map, but it takes a while for the slow fusion ball to hit the Mob, so in PvP unless the person is unsuspection it isnt good. Why should there creat balance 50-50 on all feilds, what would that do to melee, make it with the same skilled peole anc comparible setups have a 50% chance of winniong? then what, the ranged user can get some distance and the melee user is stuck swinging at air. Weapons are balance for special purposses.
-Crono
[EDIT]
Acually about that special forces thing, i am pretty shure that that was the name of my class description of my tank that i picked in char creation ;P
i thought he was talking about fluffy bunnies, i stopped reading this thread days ago, but if we are talking about a JOAT char, then a PE is not available to be a JOAT, as he/she can only specialise in 1 skill, not multiple skills which would be required as a JOAT, for instance, my rifle PE needs Weaponlore and RC, with a bit of resist force and carrying stuff, there is no room for any other items within his itinery, he has to specialise, negating any JOATishness within his char. Tanks can gun, drive, repair, recycle and hack, without loosing combat efficiency, did I mention fluffy bunnies? :)
The Pe really needs some sort of boost but I fear if they boost our weapons they would make us overpowered the libby would own in the hands of a good user if boosted. Some of the good PE's have went on to make a pistol spy and those pistol spys are much more powerfull than a PE I fought vets spy he was using a judge he beat me 3 times only just mind but if he was using a slasher it would be game over for me in less than 8 seconds. So even the spy is better than a PE and they can abuse stealth as much as they want spys can get 120 fire 120 energy and god knows how much xray and still have over 400 hitpoints . They can cast shelter with 1 drug and one drug gives them fire armour and these are 10 min drugs so what is the point in playing a PE?
We can drive, ands repair as well and be combat effictive as a PE can tradeskill and use guns :P
If i rember right Pistols took much less weapon lore and were supposed to be weaker because of that. making them the option for tradeskillers who wanted a weapon. (thats all a pistol is, its s sidearm) and the ones who wanted to specialize used rifels with lots of weap lore. It is beyone me that it is almost switched up dmg wise, what the heck happened (ive been gone a while). Stealth should be available to PE's but no one should be able to iniate a strealth when being shot at. Damn, nothing should be class restricted, thats what made this game so cool :/
-Crono
Pistol PE's are fine, they actually "can" JOAT, they can hack, poke, use a pistol, and still cap freq/aim on a libby, its the Rifle PE that needs loving.
Damn, nothing should be class restricted, thats what made this game so cool :/
so you would like to see PE's using spy armor think how overpower that would be with the pe to free up all those points in con o_O
So much stuff was introduced that would unbalance the game i guess :/
But as much as possible things should be less class restrictive, if it is unbalancing to another class, make it harder to use for that class with skills more specialized to the class its intended for :/
They made it too hard to be a JOAT, PE's were the JOAT back in beta as their class type, pre rares, you could use grerat guns and still tradeskill, these high as hell req new weapons screwed everything up making them seem gimped in comparison, they could effictivly be a Joar before, using normal weapons with great efficency and still tradeskill good. The new raeres require too much shill to do that, they have been slowley messing up their balance :/
-Crono
Boy did this thread get hijacked, but getting back to the parachute idea:
? if not, make one, now, PE's get to have parachutes!!, imagine how cool it would be to fly over an op and 5 PE's jump out, avoiding the defenses of the defending clan. Not sure how it could be implemented, either as an armour, or as an item to activate like the stealth tool. To avoid any class doing this, make it PE only.
Any character jumping out of a glider dies on hitting the ground without a parachute, or just make it so you are unable to exit a glider in the air unless you have a parachute active?
Sounds neat, and much more reasonable then the jetpack idea that everyone like to spit out. The major problem I see is if falling damage is fixed so that parachutes are needed, it was also make them a death trap. Real life parachutes are very easily damaged by ranged weapon and are not manuverable enough to avoid fire. A few stray rifle shots, and its raining PE's. *ewww* :lol:
The Neocron targeting "box" would make the cover given by a night drop a moot point, and unless PE's could open pull off a HALO (high altitude, low open) jump, they would be sitting ducks as they fall slowly to the ground.
Saddly I think the programming needed to allow mid air opening of the parachute would be fairly complex and prone to errors.
PS- Tanks were created as meat shields, but they've come along way and I don't hold that against them. ;)
Boy did this thread get hijacked, but getting back to the parachute idea:
Sounds neat, and much more reasonable then the jetpack idea that everyone like to spit out. The major problem I see is if falling damage is fixed so that parachutes are needed, it was also make them a death trap. Real life parachutes are very easily damaged by ranged weapon and are not manuverable enough to avoid fire. A few stray rifle shots, and its raining PE's. *ewww* :lol:
The Neocron targeting "box" would make the cover given by a night drop a moot point, and unless PE's could open pull off a HALO (high altitude, low open) jump, they would be sitting ducks as they fall slowly to the ground.
Saddly I think the programming needed to allow mid air opening of the parachute would be fairly complex and prone to errors.
PS- Tanks were created as meat shields, but they've come along way and I don't hold that against them. ;)
Everyone calls them brain dead meat sheilds, their just 1 track, not multi taskd, they can pick 1 thing in the int skill and do it Very well. The classes of tanks are things like mercinary, Special Forces, Soldier and other such things, their not just walking sheilds that the PE's ran behind ;P they remind me of the typical 1 tracked Marine attitude, not stupid, but quite capable in thinking battle wise, just dont try to strike up a convo about stock trading or what the current news is on CNN with them or something like that and expect a good Debate :P
-Crono
sanityislost
11-07-04, 22:57
PE's need a wand which looks like this ---------<3
which can be used to summon an army of wee crabs to do there bidding n_n
SiL ..:..
PE's need a wand which looks like this ---------<3
which can be used to summon an army of wee crabs to do there bidding n_n
SiL ..:..
hahahahah :D :D :D :lol:
thats my new sig :P
Everyone calls them brain dead meat sheilds, their just 1 track, not multi taskd, they can pick 1 thing in the int skill and do it Very well. The classes of tanks are things like mercinary, Special Forces, Soldier and other such things, their not just walking sheilds that the PE's ran behind ;P they remind me of the typical 1 tracked Marine attitude, not stupid, but quite capable in thinking battle wise, just dont try to strike up a convo about stock trading or what the current news is on CNN with them or something like that and expect a good Debate :P
-Crono
Very true, gen-tanks are capable of strategy and keen military logic, the Psi-Monks worked damn hard to make the ultimate solider, and I would say they successeded. The sad part is that they used the Gen-tanks in tactics in the vain of Zap Bradigan from Futurama. "I sent wave after wave of my own men at them, until the kill bots hit their kill limit and shut down." :lol:
hahaha :D thats awosme :D
I've seen this thread appear a thousand times before, and what Crono said earlier was right - it never ceases to amaze me how quickly people will come out of the woodwork to bash the other classes. However, the thread starter posted a genuine idea IMHO - The PE class is currently screwed because the community won't let it progress. We aren't JOATS because the other classes gets pissy when we start being able to do the same things as them (And being able to do a bit of everything is the point of a JOAT - you start making exceptions and it all goes down hill), but no one seems to want to let us have "toys" so that we can be our own class either. I just pray that KK has a future planned for the PE and doesn't listen to the community for direction ;)
Hmm, one other thing to note about this thread:
Gen Tanks are genetically modified, but Spies are not, yet a Spy is as agile and as smart as a Tank is strong and tough, suggesting to me that a Tank isn't beyond human limits of strength and resilience. At the same time, a tank is less dexterous than the average joe and definately not as smart. In fact, if the IQ of the average joe (PE) was 100, Gen Tanks would have an IQ of 33. Tanks are grunts - they're not special forces, they're just 'special'.
Tanks were much faster, PE's and Spys got that nerfed on us ;P
And like i said, their 1 tracked, they can do almost any int based thing Very well, But only 1.
-Crono
Clive tombstone
12-07-04, 03:34
Anyone think the name :private Eye is a tad missleading for a class as it stands of now?
personally, I hope the PE's get the gliders^^ I love vehicles, but I dont want to reaise a spy, I just started a gen tank for crying out-loud (his name is Vlaud the Bastard)
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