View Full Version : Capped vs WoC
heh just wondering i was reading gamershell about ncbdoy
"WoC skills will give you access to a diversity of powerful items like weapons and tools"
How much of a pvp gap is this gonna create?
I mean will the powerfull weapons piss on my cs and force me to have to basically cap yet again to compete?
I am just asking cuz atm i think thats still a problem that most pvp is capped pvp or rare pvp.... aren't we gonna get non rares for fighting rares aswell ... give csters something else to make cash on?
Will the woc count for tradeskillers? Like say a new imp for lv 10 WoC but needs a WoC lv 10 poker ontop of his current 115?
Will there be woc conster things? Special Bps he gets of items to construct?
Ie a bp that dosen't delete ever, but the parts on it are very hard to find, say random drops of various bossmobs but the item itself is something powerful for people. Or a resser with some ubz0r woc tool which has like 5% fail rate or something almost guarenteeing non failures...
Dunno if this was said or i missed it but i just wanted to know
i hope it dont make the gulf to big, atm rare users own non rare users(hybrids exception)most of the time if not all the time.
if WoC makes capped guys even more powerful...i dont even want to think of the nerf threads to come lol
however i dont think KK are gonna over power classes in such a way, think they will be more like complimentary skills to the class rather than hoyl shit you can now fire your CS at 360 ROF with 500% aim, wont be anything like that i would think
I hope they do something fun with the WoC skills.
Not: "You have reached lvl10 WoC. You can now use CS mark II which is exactly the same as normal CS but does ten times more damage."
EDIT: *waves* Hi Carbonite.
360 rof on cs :eek: that would be sooo much fun :P
although clip would be too small
I think it's just skills on top the basic skills, so we can finally wear pa4
cant see em doing that, i envisage some class specific skill perhaps more than uber overpowering weapons
think it's just skills on top the basic skills, so we can finally wear pa4 that would be nice if only the PA was colours, ok black is cool except PA aint proper black its a dirty grey color
hope it dont make the gulf to big, atm rare users own non rare users(hybrids exception)most of the time if not all the time.
Atm yes but when they do the reworking of damage based on TL I know what I'll be using blacksun ;)
Edit: and I'll be -32 soulight roleplaying a killer who don't care who you are or what you have done ^^
i hope the WoC skills are something like the commander skills in Planetside that help your teamplay.
even its only the orbital laser that nukes everyone in an outpost :D
Clownst0pper
08-07-04, 20:11
they should be like DAoC, timed buffs that boost a certain skill to your class, or those around you.
Like a tank can have a self heal of say 200HP every 15minutes
or something
Dont forget what type of game this is.
This is not a game where players are separated only by skill.
This game separates players SOMEWHAT by skill, but mostly by experience/gear.
A capped player will always have an advantage over a non-capped player. A player with a rare will always have an advantage over a player with a non-rare.
If WOC stuff doesnt give the capped players an advantage, why even bother with it?
KK wants the WOC to be worth it. So people keep paying and keep playing their characters to reach that point.
Clownst0pper
08-07-04, 20:21
Dont forget what type of game this is.
This is not a game where players are separated only by skill.
This game separates players SOMEWHAT by skill, but mostly by experience/gear.
A capped player will always have an advantage over a non-capped player. A player with a rare will always have an advantage over a player with a non-rare.
If WOC stuff doesnt give the capped players an advantage, why even bother with it?
KK wants the WOC to be worth it. So people keep paying and keep playing their characters to reach that point.
The whole point of NC is that a player who isnt capped, is equal to those who are capped.
NC pvp is 100% dependant on a players skill, not there numerical "capped"
If I was a low ass tank, I could still ******** a CS tank, just cos I may be better in PVP..
{MD}GeistDamnit
08-07-04, 20:31
The whole point of NC is that a player who isnt capped, is equal to those who are capped.
NC pvp is 100% dependant on a players skill, not there numerical "capped"
If I was a low ass tank, I could still ******** a CS tank, just cos I may be better in PVP..
yeah a 30/30 is gonna kill a 65/65 :rolleyes:
I think the ppu WoC skill would be to have a holy cath running on themself all the time and tanks should get faster natural HP regeneration.
Richard Slade
08-07-04, 21:22
The droner WoC should be that you're next drone launch won't be a snafu
PE's Woc should be that it removes lag from self for 2minutes
I think the ppu WoC skill would be to have a holy cath running on themself all the time and tanks should get faster natural HP regeneration.
i think a perma cath running is a bit to overpowering heh if i had that on auto al the time my life would be even easier as it stands i have to wait for my mana recharge and a bit of casting time atm to use it... maybe a the higher it gets the more of their range becomes runcastable or something...
If the Woc will be items I would like it to be pa4 with lower psi/str/dex req's so if you got mc5 in you can use it ex psi 122 or just lower it to 125 so one store bought drug is enough. Other than that I dont know, weapons/spells and so on will probably be too high, maby a weapon of choice made indestructable and non droppable or something, one of the old weaps that is like fireapoc with the new enhancement.
I'm just so glad i fully capped my monkeh
The whole point of NC is that a player who isnt capped, is equal to those who are capped.
NC pvp is 100% dependant on a players skill, not there numerical "capped"
If I was a low ass tank, I could still ******** a CS tank, just cos I may be better in PVP..You have NEVER been more wrong, both in practice and theory.
Theory: This game 100% intends the more experienced player to have an advantage. More Con = more resists and more health = live longer. End of story. A game that is based on skill, for example, is JumpGate. In JG, you fly ships instead of building runners. The ships have gun options... but basically the defenses are set in stone, and they are very well balanced. A newb can hop in a low level ship and defeat a capped veteran in a higher level ship if they are a good enough pilot. Its an ACTUAL fps game... no % calculations based on your stats. THAT game is based on skill. You can take a skilled pilot, and put them in a level 7 ship, and they can beat someone in a much higher level ship.
Neocron calculates how many CS blobs "should" hit based on your stats, and then thats how many hit. You must have skill to know how to aim the CS sure, but dont let yourself think Neocron is all about player skill. Now, I guess you could call it all about skill if you include the skill in allocating skill points.. but I dont think that is what you were talking about.
Practice: like it was said, a 30/30 runner will NEVER have a chance to beat a 65/65 runner. You take a skilled player, and put them in a newb, and they are 100% ineffective in combat until they advance.
And no, sorry, I dont care how good you are. A newb tank has virtually no chance of EVER beating a capped CS tank.
Neocron has "FPS elements" and looks like a FPS, but remember that deep down it still determines if you hit your opponent based on percentages. It still rolls dice to see if you hit. Its just done via a first person perspective.
Most players in Neocron wont even consider PvP til they at least have a rare, which means they are close to cap in their main skills.
Strych9 talks sense...listen to what he is telling you.
Cliffraiser
09-07-04, 13:40
You have NEVER been more wrong, both in practice and theory.
Theory: This game 100% intends the more experienced player to have an advantage. More Con = more resists and more health = live longer. End of story. A game that is based on skill, for example, is JumpGate. In JG, you fly ships instead of building runners. The ships have gun options... but basically the defenses are set in stone, and they are very well balanced. A newb can hop in a low level ship and defeat a capped veteran in a higher level ship if they are a good enough pilot. Its an ACTUAL fps game... no % calculations based on your stats. THAT game is based on skill. You can take a skilled pilot, and put them in a level 7 ship, and they can beat someone in a much higher level ship.
Neocron calculates how many CS blobs "should" hit based on your stats, and then thats how many hit. You must have skill to know how to aim the CS sure, but dont let yourself think Neocron is all about player skill. Now, I guess you could call it all about skill if you include the skill in allocating skill points.. but I dont think that is what you were talking about.
Practice: like it was said, a 30/30 runner will NEVER have a chance to beat a 65/65 runner. You take a skilled player, and put them in a newb, and they are 100% ineffective in combat until they advance.
And no, sorry, I dont care how good you are. A newb tank has virtually no chance of EVER beating a capped CS tank.
Neocron has "FPS elements" and looks like a FPS, but remember that deep down it still determines if you hit your opponent based on percentages. It still rolls dice to see if you hit. Its just done via a first person perspective.
Most players in Neocron wont even consider PvP til they at least have a rare, which means they are close to cap in their main skills.
though your theory sounds right. Ive seen 30/30 people kill capped people. Hell i even did it myself quite a few times. If the 30/30 has an incredible aim and good movement and the capped person a shite aim and doesnt really work on not getting hit i guarentee the capped player dies.
slaughteruall
09-07-04, 13:41
though your theory sounds right. Ive seen 30/30 people kill capped people. Hell i even did it myself quite a few times. If the 30/30 has an incredible aim and good movement and the capped person a shite aim and doesnt really work on not getting hit i guarentee the capped player dies.
I honestly dont beleave you.
Slaughter
Cliffraiser
09-07-04, 13:45
I honestly dont beleave you.
Slaughter
am i forcing you to?
but seriously theres quite a few capped people that cant pvp for shite and die to xx/40 runners and some even to lower players. IMO pvp in this game is more influenced by individual skill then ubar setup equipment etc. Sure it helps. But you dont need a CS,HL or whatever else to beat capped players.
I don't mind if the WoC skills give a player cool items.
However, it should be insanely hard to get the higher level WoC skills (given they are divided this way).
There could be an uber item at the "last" WoC skill, but it should be really really really really (:p) hard to reach it.
I don't mind a few players having an uber item.
Maybe even WoC skilled people would have to fight (in case of a combat item) eachother, for the last and truly uber item :p
I don't know, but unique stuff can be cool. It gives devoted players something to strive for. Also, it keeps the interest going since you have a goal. Even if you feel bored at some stage getting there, you're often back on track quite soon :)
slaughteruall
09-07-04, 14:26
am i forcing you to?
but seriously theres quite a few capped people that cant pvp for shite and die to xx/40 runners and some even to lower players. IMO pvp in this game is more influenced by individual skill then ubar setup equipment etc. Sure it helps. But you dont need a CS,HL or whatever else to beat capped players.
Dude calm down. I made a statement. And you went from a 30/30 to a xx/40. Make your mind up. I might be able to see this happening on pluto. Since i did not have a very hard time killing people on my resser/rifle spy who was not capped. But still
Slaughter
before last patch Ive seen lots of level 30ish tanks own level 60+ tanks.
You know, when people were saying melee isn't overpowered, yet everyone was melee all of a sudden. ("Due to new rares" rofl)
way im playing a level 20 spy could pwn me
yeah punching the guards :lol:
:mad:
yeah punching the guards :lol:
:mad:
pfhh dont mention those gaurds there pissing me off, every time i die its because of them(apart from when stryker killed me :mad: )
slaughteruall
09-07-04, 15:40
before last patch Ive seen lots of level 30ish tanks own level 60+ tanks.
You know, when people were saying melee isn't overpowered, yet everyone was melee all of a sudden. ("Due to new rares" rofl)
Well ok but i was thinking more along the lines of a 30/30 melee tank against a fully capped melee tank. Or what ever same class against each other.
Slaughter
..i..DemonX
09-07-04, 15:46
Funny to see what problems u guys got :wtf:
I mean in fact nobody knows how or what the WOC will be, nobody knows how it will be in PvM or PvP with them, nobody knows what "new" stuff will be there but u start asking for how will it work and how it will affect PvP or Traders? Cant u just wait till we get
a) informations from KK
b) BDOY Release ?
U can start cry over them when they are in game, but why u break ur heads about things we not know anything realy about?
Funny to see what problems u guys got :wtf:
I mean in fact nobody knows how or what the WOC will be, nobody knows how it will be in PvM or PvP with them, nobody knows what "new" stuff will be there but u start asking for how will it work and how it will affect PvP or Traders? Cant u just wait till we get
a) informations from KK
b) BDOY Release ?
U can start cry over them when they are in game, but why u break ur heads about things we not know anything realy about?
what you dont discuss thing?!?!
its nice to have a nice thread where we can talk about what we hope it will be
..i..DemonX
09-07-04, 15:52
Yeah a tread where we can talk about our wishes is not the problem, i not see the point on capped vs WOC! Cuz even if u have a say uhm uh Holy Lightning and u can kill a spy (even when capped) in say 3 hits u got to hit those and if the spy got better aim u will loose even when he need to hit u like 50 times!
That will not change with WOC skills or items and there is not a reason to ask how WOC will affect PvP or PvM yet.
If its like "How u think WOC should be?" I wont say anything about / to it beside that they hoply extreme hard to get so it takes insane time to make it.
Here is the difference between Neocron and a game that truly *only* requirers player skill.
In a skill game, if I say "Two players of identical skill fight each other, who wins?" you have no way of knowing. Same skill = no predictable outcome... would come down to luck or whatever else.
In Neocron, if you two two uberskilled vets with identical superb skills, and you give one a 20/20 spy and the other a 60/60 tank, the tank will never lose assuming the tank actually tries to win.
Sure you can sit here and name exceptions to the rule, how one time you, in a 30/30 runner once downed a "good" 60/60 tank. Whatever- the generalization isnt disproven by an exception.
Take a look at extremes- Can the most skilled Neocron player in the world, in a 0/2 noob, beat a 75/60 100% capped APU? Ever? Would it matter who is controlling the APU?
In Neocron, player skill is easily and often trumped by character level. Thats the facts.
Not saying its bad of course- just saying that when talking about WOC rewards, those will represent THE ultimate rewards for runners. It will take a while for the average player to get 200+ million experience in their main stat. You better believe that KK will want to make the rewards worth while.
As long as it stays the same for everyone permently, like if its dead easy at the start and gets nerfed to being slow, then there's the distinct few who will be above people for a long time.
Sorry if you don't wish to talk or know about woc, ignore the thread? I didn't make it oblitery that you come posting
What if that holy lightning did nothing to a woc spy like his woc skill was energy resistence... or fire resistence or SH of 1000000 piercing would you be happy that they could own your ass and your rare isn't gonna dint them.
I am asking if there will be a distinct class of woc fighters... will we have to become a woc fighter to compete? Like most currently have to cap... will we have no choice but to grind for hours getting a special woc gun because someone elses plasters me across the wastelands in.
I ain't denying that the rewards shouldn't be worthwhile, i am asking what kinda things i could expect, if it's just more rare guns or swords or spells with an extra stat req on em making me grind for more weeks or possibly days on end... then heh O_o
I ain't denying that the rewards shouldn't be worthwhile, i am asking what kinda things i could expect, if it's just more rare guns or swords or spells with an extra stat req on em making me grind for more weeks or possibly days on end... then heh O_oThis is a MMORPG with a persistant universe and a monthly fee to play.
Seriously- why WOULDNT they set up the game so that you must play for several weeks extra to compete with the uber high end characters?
They dont want you to be at the highest level of competition in a short period of time. Thats not good business.
of course you got to balance it against the impatience of the community :)
Clownst0pper
09-07-04, 17:24
A non rare user can kill a rare user
A non rare user of lower level can kill a higher rank rare user
Its 100% dependant on skill.
You can throw all the facts you want, but at the end of the day, ive done it, ive seen it done, and it will continue to happen.
APU's can OP war with an energy beam, and kill capped apu's, or PPU's who arent even capped but can use holy gear can survive longer than capped PPU's
Ive seen lowbie melee tanks of /55 last longer than most capped tanks.
So please dont tell me Neocron is dependant on being capped and having rares, because it fucking isnt.
maybe not allways but most the timeit is.
take avarage tank of rank xx/64 using CS against another avarage tank of rank xx/46 duel them 100 of times and you will most likely have the cs user winning proberbly 95-99% of the fights.
sure if you have very skilled player on tank of 46 against no skill tank with rank 64 then yes the chance of the skilled guy winning are higher, but even still if the CS users gets a good hit the lower ranker is going down, maybe were looking at a 60-70 win rate maybe less.
yes theres always the chance the lower guy will win.
i mean iremember as a rank 50ish tank only just able to fit in PA(this was before req changes) fighting bruteforce(rank 62 or 64 cant recall) and i beat him.
however that doesnt mean i as a lower will beat him all time, chances are over a large amount of fights, it would swing his way because of the rank diffrence.
thats how i view it anyway
Clownst0pper
09-07-04, 17:32
maybe not allways but most the timeit is.
take avarage tank of rank xx/64 using CS against another avarage tank of rank xx/46 duel them 100 of times and you will most likely have the cs user winning proberbly 95-99% of the fights.
sure if you have very skilled player on tank of 46 against no skill tank with rank 64 then yes the chance of the skilled guy winning are higher, but even still if the CS users gets a good hit the lower ranker is going down, maybe were looking at a 60-70 win rate maybe less.
yes theres always the chance the lower guy will win.
i mean iremember as a rank 50ish tank only just able to fit in PA(this was before req changes) fighting bruteforce(rank 62 or 64 cant recall) and i beat him.
however that doesnt mean i as a lower will beat him all time, chances are over a large amount of fights, it would swing his way because of the rank diffrence.
thats how i view it anyway
Con setup, and good aiming, and the prospect of level /*rank* doesnt come into the equasion.
Con setup, and good aiming, and the prospect of level /*rank* doesnt come into the equasion.
umm now you confused me, because all those make up the equasion
Clownst0pper
09-07-04, 17:41
Con setup, and good aiming, and the prospect of level /*rank* doesnt come into the equasion.
umm now you confused me, because all those make up the equasion
"the prospect of fighting against someone higher level, and it being a problem doesnt come into the equastion, if you have a good con setup and better aiming"
better :p
ok ya better, however, someone who is rank 64 in current ranking is capped cons and str(contuing with tank) while the rank 50 guys proberbly has 90 base maybe, and cons off between 60-70.
so really the rank 64 should have better cons.
aiming is a diffrent issue.
but i mean i got bad aim but even i hit some of the time, surely there cant be someone out there with really bad aiming to make that a issue
however i appreciate the point you make
though your theory sounds right. Ive seen 30/30 people kill capped people. Hell i even did it myself quite a few times. If the 30/30 has an incredible aim and good movement and the capped person a shite aim and doesnt really work on not getting hit i guarentee the capped player dies.
I don't know about a 30/30 against a 65/65, but I've used my 30/30 to take down a 45/45, then again, he was a Pistol PE and I was a melee tank, but still, it can be done.
I think a lot of experianced players think 'hehe, a newb I can Pwn him no effort at all', and forget about things like using cover, trying not to get hit and using their medkits.
Clownstopper, why dont you actually respond to the arguments being made?
In a pure skill game, rank/level DOESNT MATTER.
In Neocron, LIKE I SAID BEFORE, there is no way POSSIBLE that a 0/2 can beat any type of advanced runner, REGARDLESS of skill.
This doesnt matter too much. You can sit here and play Neocron and pat yourself on the back for being so skilled, but I bet
1. You arent doing that with a newb
2. You wouldnt be doing it if you played a game that ACTUALLY is skill based.
Even if you want to argue about a newb beating a vet... even if I were to concede that... there is STILL the FACT that all hits/misses are calculated by percentages, not by what happens on the screen. You can aim your big bad CS at someone point blank... have it shoved up their nose... and still miss a shot.
THAT ultimately is why this game is marginally a game of skill. It still comes down to the roll of the dice. Its still IS a RPG. Sorry to break this to you, but Neocron is just a fancier version of point and click combat. Exemplified by the monks, of course.
Bozz-Von Mel
09-07-04, 23:14
Bring the Woc, its all about frames-per-second anyway. I have to have a capped player and higher level weapons to compensate for the lag.
Cliffraiser
09-07-04, 23:49
Here is the difference between Neocron and a game that truly *only* requirers player skill.
In a skill game, if I say "Two players of identical skill fight each other, who wins?" you have no way of knowing. Same skill = no predictable outcome... would come down to luck or whatever else.
In Neocron, if you two two uberskilled vets with identical superb skills, and you give one a 20/20 spy and the other a 60/60 tank, the tank will never lose assuming the tank actually tries to win.
Sure you can sit here and name exceptions to the rule, how one time you, in a 30/30 runner once downed a "good" 60/60 tank. Whatever- the generalization isnt disproven by an exception.
Take a look at extremes- Can the most skilled Neocron player in the world, in a 0/2 noob, beat a 75/60 100% capped APU? Ever? Would it matter who is controlling the APU?
In Neocron, player skill is easily and often trumped by character level. Thats the facts.
Not saying its bad of course- just saying that when talking about WOC rewards, those will represent THE ultimate rewards for runners. It will take a while for the average player to get 200+ million experience in their main stat. You better believe that KK will want to make the rewards worth while.
tis true up to a certain degree, but from rank 50 and on ur lvl doesnt really matter alot anymore. anything lower then say rank 35 are exeptions but they still happen.
I really think you guys should seperate a lowbie fighting in an op war and a lowbie in a duel.
In an op war you could run around forever and its possible no one might target you until the last man, which in turn allows you to back stab higher players without a care.
Now given duel conditions (making general assumptions based on my observations and logical reasoning)...
/60 Tank w/ rare VS /60 Tank w/o rare Outcome based highly on skill
/60 Tank w/ rare VS /50 Tank w/o rare Outcome based moderately on skill
/60 Tank w/ rare VS /40 Tank w/o rare Outcome based marginally on skill
/60 Tank w/ rare VS /40 Tank w/o rare Outcome based moderately on skill
And so on...
There are certain points where skill will be a factor, but if you get low enough then you just don't make a dent. I mean if you are a "skillful" /60 fighting a "skillful" /40 and you lose more than 90% of the time then you are NOT skilled.
Bozz-Von Mel
10-07-04, 04:41
Define skill. Skill seems to be very arbitrary. Is it more than how fast you can punch your fire button ? Or is it in the random pattern with which most people dance around eachother? I see skill as simply being in the right place at the right time. This is not a vacum, no two fights are ever the same.
What about your distance to the server? Even at the speed of light, it takes some time for a signal from Germany to reach the U.S. Not to mention the countless routers the signal has to bounce through. That has to shave at least 1/2 a second off your reaction time. What about the processor speed of your PC? ISP Connection? I see too many factors. Be interesting to see some of these so called "uber" players change places with someone else. They may find changes in their "skill" level.
I can NEVER call this a "SKILL" game. Maybe 10% skill if you have all your fingers. Rest of it is uncontrolable factors for which one should not take credit.
A non rare user can kill a rare user
A non rare user of lower level can kill a higher rank rare user
Its 100% dependant on skill.
You can throw all the facts you want, but at the end of the day, ive done it, ive seen it done, and it will continue to happen.
APU's can OP war with an energy beam, and kill capped apu's, or PPU's who arent even capped but can use holy gear can survive longer than capped PPU's
Ive seen lowbie melee tanks of /55 last longer than most capped tanks.
So please dont tell me Neocron is dependant on being capped and having rares, because it fucking isnt.
most of the time I've seen it happen it's been due to some extenuating circumstance, not a pure neofrag-style PvP...
Yeah, 1 10/15 rifle spy could take out a capped tank, if everything worked out right, if he backed up up so he agged a Grim Persecutor behind him, got him in a bad position, the tank FREd, ect. 90% of the time, that's good tactics, and a good lowbie CAN beat a near-cap.
But the fact is that when comparing apples to apples, IE a good experianced NC player in a capped character using his favorite PvP weapon VS a 90% capped character using his favorite weapon, most of the time better stats win out, fluke do happen but we're not looking at isolated cases, we're looking at generalities not a few braggable exceptions, and generally higher stats make PvP easier and increase your likelyhood of winning, no one can argue that.
{MD}GeistDamnit
10-07-04, 07:12
I have no idea how clownstopper can believe this game is 100% skill based. You put a level 30 spy with a hew burner or whatever crap they can use at such a low level, against a capped spy with a FL or HL and you think the level 30 is gonna win? it takes 2 burst's to kill a capped spy usually, 3 max. Your either smoking some funny stuff or your trying to brag about how you yourself did it. Which incidentally nobody gives a shit, but your just plain 100% wrong. skill is not a factor when you need a high level to use the more powerfull weapons/armor and at low levels your basically useless. sure there are times it has or can happen, WOW, but it is not in any way the standard. If you can't get that into your head, seek medical attention :/
Define skill. Skill seems to be very arbitrary. Is it more than how fast you can punch your fire button ? Or is it in the random pattern with which most people dance around eachother? I see skill as simply being in the right place at the right time. This is not a vacum, no two fights are ever the same.
Alright...
Skill (n)
Proficiency, facility, or dexterity that is acquired or developed through training or experience.
It's likely a nubbie won't know how to break legs with a CS or know when to use meds or boosters...or even know how to move to avoid being hit. Punching the fire button in this game doesn't matter, because frequency is detemined by weapon stats and if you capped the stats.
I do not agree that this game is 100% skill...that's just rediculous, but its not all stats either. It would seem, though, that stats outweigh skill 2:1.
Shadow Dancer
10-07-04, 09:27
Too many silly exaggerations in this thread. It's neither 100% skilled based or 10% skilled based.
It's more like 50/50 or 60/40. To say it's 100% skill based is ludicurous. I bet I can use my toes on the keyboard with my capped apu, and kill 40 newbies that were just newly created.
But also look at people like Vet. He's one of the best PEs I've seen. Who consistently beat alot of people and win 1v1s. Don't tell me it's 10% either.
Please, both sides need to stop exaggerating.
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