View Full Version : Why use a PE over a tank, monk or spy?
I'm bored and I think its pretty obvious that something need to be done to make PEs a bit more useful. In the past we had stealth so it made us the best choice for a solo character, but now with stealth removed its more sane to bring a pistol spy or a HC tank to any solo situation. Stealth allowed PEs to be overpowered in the solo situation, but I thought it was fair and this is because both tanks and monks work solo and team play, whilst the PE only worked for the solo situation.
I was looking forward to a spy boost, but not to a stealth removal as I thought it was balanced. We have equal or less defence then a tank, but do less damage, and our only reason to be a Pe the stealth tool is now removed, no longer can we play the tank/spy we are stuck as the tank wannabe, but not really a spy. With hybrids and melee tanks boost this effect has been magnified.
Rifle PEs are more underpowered then Pistol PEs, and I think the paineaser needs fixing, and balance to be restored to the rifle and pistol weapons, also I think we need to give a PE some stuff like as vettero rightly suggested, ability to see stealthers and a few right level tl rifle and pistols, that give us a reason to exist. I don't consider the overpowered HL and the SH as a viable reason for us to exist, we need to drug to use them, and they are not weapons of our class. All the other guns below the SH are too weak to their pistol counterparts, and the drugged pistols slasher, and executioner are way too powerful for the speed nerf they don't get.
At the moment no character is more useless then my rifle PE who uses 4 drugs to pretend something he is not and cannot stealth the range is useless because a ravager can shoot as far as I can in terms of view clip, and I have to get drugged to hell, watch 4 drugs and 4 buffs, while a tank buffless can use all his weapons and fight foot on foot on me.
The Rifle PE is easily now the weakest class to use in any situation, and I think that needs to be changed. I can kill people on my rifle PE but with great effort and concentration compared to my HC tank who is easy to use and simply is much more effective in both the solo and the teamplay model.
Obviously the majority of the PEs are pistol PEs but please keep in mind that rifle PEs are not an non-existant class, Pistols shouldn't be the only choice a PE has HC is very viable but the difference shows when in an op fight situation or agaisnt a tank.
So I just started my opinion, please tell me what you think..now I know some people are really good with their PEs, but this is all meant to be relative, we measure as someone with the same skill across everyone, and no comments like my PE kicks your PEs ass so they don't suck.
shelter = tl 30 = teh win
PE's never needed stealth why can't people see that
Think this is another "PE whining because he lost his stealth" thread? Then stop, go and enjoy a hot beverage and come back to this later when you're feeling calmer.
The basis of Rai's arguement is unfortunately quite accurate.
ive seen good PEs throw damage boost out at a fast rate along with the shelter etc PEs can be just as deadly as other classes
I agree the PE's need some new stuff which is only for them
im kind glad PEs dont have stealth, i dropped some useless dex imps i didnt need for better armor.
NS_CHROME54
06-07-04, 18:15
as far as pvp goes the RoG is the *only* thing us rifle PE's have going for us.
PE's never needed stealth why can't people see that
I don't think PEs need stealth, but it made us balance non the less, if you take something away put something back in, i'm tired of kk's lets nerf with the big hammer. One second a gun shoots pin pong balls, the next day it shoots nuclear rockets. Whilst I don't need stealth it made us useful hackers who could spy and fight at the same time was perfect to me (so spies need a boost),, without stealth however it puts spies up a level compared to us, and makes us pointless compared to tanks.
We PEs are equal match at tanks but with great stress, 4 buffs is annoying to keep while fighting somebody else and every PE user knows shelter, deflector and anything else can begin to run off in the middle of the fight, and will die trying to recast them. Now added to the drugs a Pe usually uses (not neccesarily) its stress at the most for a insiginificant reward other then style or showplay in NF.
btw, rai, rifle PE is the most dangerous class right atm, because of spirit bullets, ok good spies might come near my PE :P
but rifle PE is a very strong class... the only loving PEs need is a toy, as ive written above before, shelter = tl 30 and spies are in their role again...and so are PEs then
I never thought PEs needed stealth, but I agree with this thread.
PEs need SOMETHING that gives them a reason to exist. ATM they are not even 'jacks of all trades' because they have a semi-specialization in dex... a true "jack of all trades" would have 50 in every stat, but that would be equally useless because there's nothing worthwhile under TL 80 in anything but PSI.
my idea would be to add some PE only gear that gives them some team-useful support roles and to add more lowtech gear to the game.
also some people say PEs are excellent for scouting...
well tanks can run as fast!! so can spies and they can stealth?! who needs us for scouting anymore?
PEs can be just as deadly as other classes
Yes of course they can, Rai even said as much himself. The problem is, the PE only works as a class when there is a really good player behind it, where as the other three classes are less punishing. If you put a capped monk, spy, tank and pe in an open field and let a new player sit at the controls, it wont be a fair fight.
To make matters worse, the PE class has a self-built image of the "hardcore" class. Now, no disrespect to all you other PE's out there, but arguing that the class doesn't need x y or z is just plain ignorance, and seems to spring from the fear of loosing the "hardcore" title when a new feature attracts more players to the class.
EDIT: That sounded better in my head :(
btw, rai, rifle PE is the most dangerous class right atm, because of spirit bullets, ok good spies might come near my PE :P
Given how rare they are, what PE is going to waste a spirit mod by putting it in a Commando Sniper Rifle.. because believe me, without stealth, using a Silent Hunter isn't worth the pain.
NS_CHROME54
06-07-04, 18:21
of course we also must remember how much easier it is to cap a PE than any other class.
I never thought PEs needed stealth, but I agree with this thread.
PEs need SOMETHING that gives them a reason to exist. ATM they are not even 'jacks of all trades' because they have a semi-specialization in dex... a true "jack of all trades" would have 50 in every stat, but that would be equally useless because there's nothing worthwhile under TL 80 in anything but PSI.
my idea would be to add some PE only gear that gives them some team-useful support roles and to add more lowtech gear to the game.you choise to specialise in dex, ok yes they cap with 80 base dex, but you can easily go the route of str based weapons or tradeskilling if you wish, just that everyone goes the dex route
Think this is another "PE whining because he lost his stealth" thread? Then stop, go and enjoy a hot beverage and come back to this later when you're feeling calmer.
The basis of Rai's arguement is unfortunately quite accurate.
Pain Easer sucks, it's damage relies heavily on the burst, if you don't land all three then well a fair amount of peeps shrug it of enough to kill you first.
The libby is probably the same although it is a beast of a pistola heh a fair few times has my spy been underestimated now because of his lib :p
Although saying that when i did get lucky the damage was teh win and i was actually on par heh with a much better chance of winning.
I found in op wars there were uses for my pe, i used to chase the weakened peeps who were hiding for the ppus to heal and finish them of, due to my speed and resists and my self reliance i was very usefull in the fact i was killing people without the ppu having to watch me to buff me etc.
I would hunt droners and wait for apus to start loosing deflects normally after i finished finding the weak and start on them.
I found tbh i was an effective fighting unit within the field purely fr the fact i hadn't got to rely on ppus and thus i could move about much freely in the fight.
Executioner owns at most stats......
130% dmg i could own a fair amount of peeps, atm i use it around 148% in pepper for dueling unles si get a pistol 3 but tbh it so evil at that % anyway it isn't important so pes dont need to get major major bonuses on it tbh, just a decent rof and aiming (like aiming is hard O_o) i only wish the redeemer was like its fusion counterpart and did some real damage....
Stealth needs looking at heh, most pes i know used it to run away not many shared my view of it, i use it for the suprise attack come outta stealth and wham type thing.
My pe was high tech sa'd for a while but i found that the tool sat there on a pe is all to tempting when your on low hp, the only reason i'd run on my spy is prolly coz of shit defense but if i was buffed i reckon it would be a death battle :)
"The Rifle PE is easily now the weakest class to use in any situation, and I think that needs to be changed. I can kill people on my rifle PE but with great effort and concentration compared to my HC tank who is easy to use and simply is much more effective in both the solo and the teamplay model."
and tbh i believe thats what pes are all about, they really test player skill, it's hard to win as a rifler especially low tech but hell when you do it feels damn good.
Pe's require heavy concentration and effort.... imo
The higher rifles need moving outta pe range but just remember how spies setup... don't wanna get nerfed in the process and exe should be hard for a pe to use... it's like the second to best pistol.... :D
btw, rai, rifle PE is the most dangerous class right atm, because of spirit bullets, ok good spies might come near my PE :P
but rifle PE is a very strong class... the only loving PEs need is a toy, as ive written above before, shelter = tl 30 and spies are in their role again...and so are PEs then
yes I agree, but as I said SH is a spy weapon and using it as a PE feels wrong, and I use it and I know how annoying it is i've come to believe these weapons shouldn't be in the hands of a rifle PE, that said Rifle is a strong class, but what makes you think a Rifle Spy can't do the same and have it better? The damage of rifles even neglects a lot of spies from using it, most spies nowadays uses pistols (capped slasher murders).
Still the spirit SH is not implemented so much yet, and much like the hybrid we have much to see about it.
shelter = tl 30 = teh win
Ahh, for once XaNToR I disagree. But only because I'd prefer to not nerf anything. Spies finally have it good right now with shelter, and I think they should be able to keep it. Unfortunately, while spies having shelter doesn't really effect Tanks or Monks, it puts PEs waaaaay behind the power curve.
But I'd rather look for another solution that helps PEs.
How about we put the trip mines in-game, and make them PE-only?
What if there were some new weapons developed that required STR/HC and DEX/R-C or P-C? Heavy assault rifles and pistols like little hand cannons, that have STR requirements of 40 / 50 / 60?
I dunno what to do, but I agree, PEs are hurting right now. The new Psi drug is really really good for spies...
I got a pistol PE and a Melee PE atm. Melee PEs are great, now they melee TL changes are a bit annoying coz now to use my original setup i have to drug to use a Tai-Chi (PPR, Moveon, Marine and Zerk 3), i could swap something for a Zerk 2 but thatd lower my defence below what i want. I can runcast quite a few spells, Blessed Deflector, DB and I got all my dex to put where i want, and all my int. If you get the con setup right then your laughing, they're real fun to play.
NS_CHROME54
06-07-04, 18:27
how bout
blessed deflector = tl 30
Original monk
06-07-04, 18:28
PE's never needed stealth why can't people see that
euh, i saw it :)
i think its good that PE's lost stealth because:
it got abused by unskilled PE's to flee everytime they where on 10 health to heal up around the corner and restart ... thats no fighting nomore ... certainly not if ya can heal a PE so freaking fast, better said as fast they can heal emselves ... the PE's still playing PE and always played PE (the skilled ones) are the only ones still playing em ... this is good :)
i think its bad that PE's lost stealth because:
i dont think every PE automatically abused stealth ... not even mentioning the ones that never used it ... but for the ones that lost it its very sad that they also lost there tool to manouver passed mobs or angry factionguards :/
so, again, the honest users get punished for the ones abusing a technique ... remembers me about the old hybrids where a few of em abused parashock , DB and HL to the fullest extend and got a whole community nerfed :/
not saying that they (hybrids in general) wherent overpowerd but still ...
funny thing is that recently the only decent way to play a 50/50 hybrid is yust shocking, DBing and hitting with holy energy halo ... yust because the rest does shitdamage at all ... (not talking about the apuhybrids ... they cant rezz ya see, for me a hybrid is a char that has the ability to take life and give it back, and more of em fancy things :) )
anyways, back to the stealth: overall i dont think that it was a bad decision, i dont have to be a hypocrit cause i always wanted stealth removed for PE's ... the ones that knew how to fight with a PE can still fight ffcourse, but the noobs using stealth to get away every daamn time are filtered out now ...
i dunno why's all the fuzz ... its not like stealth is here from the first day ... i seen plenty of PE's doing extremely good, certainly in combat .. witouth ever touching stealth ...
for spy's its not even neccesary i think ... but its a fun tool for em, they get ganked enough allready :)
how bout
blessed deflector = tl 30
well thought... that would be another PE nerf :rolleyes: :wtf:
NS_CHROME54
06-07-04, 18:29
well thought... that would be another PE nerf :rolleyes: :wtf:
O_o it's tl35 right now
A PE is easy to cap true, but they are useless before they cap.
Monks and Tanks 90ish base already at a good level, and apart from 90-100, its about as easy to reach as a PE, i've played all 4 classes and I know the difference is not so significant. Also why bother having a class that is classed " common villager" cmon we are talking about the high end game here where everyone is capped, and gets a equal part in the op fight experience. How bout Pluto players who only have a PE?
Also noone said JOAT PEs are not possible, they are very good and very possible, but they are crap considering 3 seconds account/character/alt switching, and everything you do sucks until blabh blah level.
O_o it's tl35 right now
oh really ?... but did u already know , the higher the tl the stronger the items :rolleyes:
NS_CHROME54
06-07-04, 18:32
oh really ?... but did u know already, the higher the tl the stronger the items :rolleyes:
blessed deflector would still be blessed deflector
No, it would be a five-tech-levels-weaker Blessed Deflector.
You'd see the difference.
blessed deflector would still be blessed deflector
but at cap it would absorb less damage as Tl30 than 35
blessed deflector would still be blessed deflector
But wouldn't resist the same amount....
blessed deflector would still be blessed deflector
what a statement...... u suggest a tl 30 def but u know tl 35 def is stronger because its tl 35 u know.... :rolleyes:
well the funny thing is everytime I ask this nobody could bring me an answer: why bother? there is no reward? wanna be cool? okay... PEs are cool and style i'll give you that.
and for those who say a lot of PE wimps running away with stealths, the problem exists still spies do the same and piss everybody off. Its even worst when I try to hunt spies and they run from me and stealth, but then when they beat me down I can't do the same. Why is running prohibited in Neocron? why should wimps not exist and fight to the death? Whats the problem with people running, this is actually a problem in Neocron there is no strategy its all about lets go up < > this close and fight to our deaths.
I'm not saying look I want stealth so I want to run away, i'm saying look we need something make us different from a tank.
What made us different previously? You're right we could run away from a situation, so we were different to the tank who had to fight it like a man, PE versatality makes us a class that is very much worth playing in the past.
What made us different previously? You're right we could run away from a situation, so we were different to the tank who had to fight it like a man, PE versatality makes us a class that is very much worth playing in the past.
I blame specialisation....
A pe would have had a right armoury on him if this hadn't been put in so solidly and to force everyone to cookie cut....
Specialisation has kinda taken their JOATness away in the fact they gotta specilise in one line to be effective rather than being able to spec a certain amoun in and each and be a little weaker but not the extreme he would be currently
nah not really its still very nice make an HC PE and you can nearly do everything, but I am really talking about competing with other classes. Maybe its important to allow us to specialise in STR, create some implants or weapons for it, but its pretty decent at the moment melee, and hc PEs are what they should be, they could do with a few adjusments but thats it to me. They pass.
what a statement...... u suggest a tl 30 def but u know tl 35 def is stronger because its tl 35 u know.... :rolleyes:
blessed def at TL 30 would be the same as TL 35 for PE's. Why? They dont cap the TL 35 so they would get higher dmg % on the TL 30 and it would just about make up for the spell dropping 5 TL. Im not sure what dmg % the spies would get on a TL 30 def. It might just be a wash between the two.
The only people it would hurt is the hybrids that can cap either of the two.
Bozz-Von Mel
06-07-04, 19:03
"HC PE" Moveon+Proto+zerk3+marine, Speed Gat. Sure you have to drug a little, but its really not that bad. Gun and drive trike, Even gun and drive Rhino if you want. You can pull rares at an incredible rate. Basic Resistor 3, Blessed Shelter, Blessed Deflector, Damage Boost. Inq 4 armor. Take plenty of stamina boosters. Most fun I have ever had on a NC char.
nah not really its still very nice make an HC PE and you can nearly do everything, but I am really talking about competing with other classes. Maybe its important to allow us to specialise in STR, create some implants or weapons for it, but its pretty decent at the moment melee, and hc PEs are what they should be, they could do with a few adjusments but thats it to me. They pass.Yeah but a pe is/was supposed to do it all, pull rifles/pistols/cannons etc, at one stage even be a moderate apu
He can down 1 psi route 1 str route 1 dex route 1 int route (mebbe 2 at a push 3 if he's pistol)
If pe's had a few aggressive spells aswell within there arsenal (mini hyb if you like) you could allow to maybe access the low anti buffs (anti heal/shelt) and on the ppu side (anti shock/dmg boost/poison). I say the first lev cuz they take a bit of time to cast i wouldn't expect to see a pe debuffing a ppu in about 3 seconds flat although in some cases they'd be another APU except with a heavier debuffing role in op wars.
Then also maybe some other duel stat based tools like i dunno Psi rifles or sain (just one example)
Give him a line of armour thats duel statted aswell (still wanna see the pa of the front of the game box ingame :p).
I always think of pe's as a swiss army knife heh, they should be handy in most situations and have the ability to cope with most on there own unless its like ppu+apu or something.
Give them some special grenades like gas nades or some stroger ones, give them some stealth boost or something that distorts them a bit so at range its harder to pick them up but close in you can see. Kinda like predator camo where he moves and becomes more visable.
heh and that's just a few ideas i had :S
I got the best idea ever, give PEs a guitar or a mike, and it allows you to voice your microphone to all in local.
spies cant use blessed def even at tl 30, at least not without MAJOR gimpage, would need def psi 1 chip and 2 drugs one being rare, even then im not sure if its poss, not going to do the math :p
I think the reason it was suggested bring it down to tl 30 would be so that they can use it with pa on :) imo that would be good but still not really enough. I dont think they need another toy just a fix to some of the lower tl weps libby, pe etc
Original monk
06-07-04, 19:20
I blame specialisation....
A pe would have had a right armoury on him if this hadn't been put in so solidly and to force everyone to cookie cut....
Specialisation has kinda taken their JOATness away in the fact they gotta specilise in one line to be effective rather than being able to spec a certain amoun in and each and be a little weaker but not the extreme he would be currently
must agree completely with what lta says ..
btw: the mike idea ya had there rai wasnt that bad actually :P
heh yeah blessed d wont change much.... seeing as tho most fights these days involve enr/xray and fire and lately poison :D
I got the best idea ever, give PEs a guitar or a mike, and it allows you to voice your microphone to all in local.
nah overpowering, allow them to get a new jacket or somthing :lol:
man a jetpack/mike/guitar allowing me to sing my favourite songs over an op battle in the high sky, hah we 'd just have a bunch of PEs trying to outsing each other. Its always beem my dream :P
Imagine germans trying to sing battle songs...
man a jetpack/mike/guitar allowing me to sing my favourite songs over an op battle in the high sky, hah we 'd just have a bunch of PEs trying to outsing each other. Its always beem my dream :P
Imagine germans trying to sing battle songs...
better to compete with them than some full on patriotic scotsman .... my mate used to be kinda mental when he did battle charges in history
ResurgencE
06-07-04, 19:30
Discussed this earlier. Heres a thread i started on the topic. It runs 4 pages, so read it all if you plan on debating.
http://neocron.jafc.de/showthread.php?t=99364&highlight=joat
yup I read it this is not to recycle the points, but bring up a new topic as for our actual use compared to other classes.
ResurgencE
06-07-04, 19:49
yup I read it this is not to recycle the points, but bring up a new topic as for our actual use compared to other classes.
Precisely. But before we can focus on what we need to revamp, we have to first remind people why our position is such and such.
Because from the response you and i got, many people dont agree with our perspective.
Btw, the thread also deals with the same thing you just mentioned.
Like i said i still believe specilastion is the source....
At least reduce it for pe's, but at the same time give them special weapon stats (time consuming heh) so they aren't AS strong but are still a fight instead of forcing them to specilise then forcing them to drug into spy tl weaponary because the weaponary at their tl is tbh Shite which results in nerfings here and there.
Pe's need weapons or there own, Akimbo Pistols or mp5 style sub machine guns something that is unique to their class as every other class has rares of its own and the pe has to try and joat when tbh he isnt much of a joat anymore
Shadow Dancer
06-07-04, 20:07
I would like it if KK released INDEPTH descriptions of what each class should do and/or what their role should be.
I can't be assed to read the replies or post a reason as i have 10 times b4.
My alts a PE and there perfect. PEs arn't made for OP wars though they work well. YOur not bored b/c ur a pe ur bored b/c of lack of content.
They're far to hard if anything.
No need to change the kewl balanec atm (bar para and a few things like the raptor)
I would like it if KK released INDEPTH descriptions of what each class should do and/or what their role should be.
What ever you make the character to do.
Shadow Dancer
06-07-04, 20:17
What ever you make the character to do.
You know what I mean foo. Like the ppu's role is purely defensive and to provide support. Etc........
My PE is not much fun to play I have to admit, after a year capped I lommed from Rifles to Pistols out of desperation to compete. Now he mostly lives in the city.
You only have to look around at the number of other classes present to see that the PE is not favoured at the moment. I truly think that something like the flying vehicles in DoY need to be given to them, and NOT the tanks, in order to make them viable in the 'end game'.
ResurgencE
06-07-04, 21:24
I truly think that something like the flying vehicles in DoY need to be given to them, and NOT the tanks, in order to make them viable in the 'end game'.
Its being given to the tanks? Thought it required 88 VC and high INT, but i could be wrong. Either way, if the PE has to gimp to use it, then we're back to square one.
I can't be assed to read the replies or post a reason as i have 10 times b4. My alts a PE and there perfect. PEs arn't made for OP wars though they work well. YOur not bored b/c ur a pe ur bored b/c of lack of content.
Should have read, then.
I, atleast, am not really complaining about the PE in PvP. Im complaining about the fact that hes either a wannabe spy, or a wannabe tank. I want something to define the PE as a class.
Pe's need weapons or there own, Akimbo Pistols or mp5 style sub machine guns
By jove, the man's got it.
{MD}GeistDamnit
06-07-04, 21:52
PE's could use something yeah, but stealth totally overpowered them. With good health/resists and good psi spells they could beat on you then run away to heal, repeat = dead. Now they are forced to fight to the death as it should be. I have no ideas about what toy they could get but I'm for it, if it's good and dosent throw off the balence.
and @ xantor, what do you mean? tl 30 shelter? isn't it like tl 26 or something now? what good would raising it do ?
Raising Shelter (currently TL25) to TL30 would put it out of casual reach of a spy. Part of the reason PEs are so unappealing right now is that spies are so good. Why play a PE when you can set up a spy with as good if not better resists AND use TL115 weapons with two ten minute drugs (Nightspider and Redflash)?
Even so, I'd rather see something to make PEs more appealing, not something that nerfs spies. I like that spies can now take a few Holy Lightnings or bursts of CS plasma without crumpling up like tissue paper.
{MD}GeistDamnit
06-07-04, 22:11
ah ok, thanks for clearing that up hive, I suspected that. Sure it sounds ok to me, my spy dont use shelter and I hate using drugs. But PE's could use something better than just the shelter TL rework :p
One idea I was thinking of was make DB a Pe only spell and take away all anti-DB drugs. Giving the Pe's a nice boost both in common PVP and at op wars.
Clive tombstone
06-07-04, 23:24
Ok, heres my take.
Ive been working on my neocron comic "script" (#1 rule when making a comic, do a script first, or youll burn faster than my gasoline)
anyways, I was doing research on the "description" of the perfessions of "spies" and "Private eye's". now, since this post is about PE's lets try to stay on track.
What I have found, that is also very obvious, is that private eye's are detectives. The odd-jobs as well as information gathering, and rely on there quick wits and cunning to get the job done. A good private eye can stay outa sight, avoid trouble, and can handle himself if the situation arives. There Keen (thats how you spell it? no spell checker today =P) information gathering skills allow them to prepare for the worst situations.
Now as for what kind of equipment there supposed to use, well, they do basically the same training as cops do. So really think of them as free-lance cops. Mobility (vehicles) small arms (pistols/rifles) communication (?) Information gathering (?)
This is just a rough RP kinda thing I pulled together from research, but yah, the description sounds a lot like a spy to me honestly, maybe a different class woulda been better instead of PE, maybe something like "soldier" or "special forces" or "mercinary" dunno, but Private eye DOES work though
-Note- AFAIK, I think that PE's do need a toy, maybe something that relates to there RP sense, or maybe give them access to a plane(I mean come on, look at the INT REQ's, I can fly a plane (yes i DO have my pilots license) , and I scored 1000 on my SAT) or how about some "radar item" (think I saw a post about that some where) or something to make them fit there "role" in the classes, they just kinda seem, well, not to PE to me.(edit) in allot of movies and stuff, dont private eyes have a truckload of sex-apeal? if non of the above, make PE's super smooth man.
PS-make lowtech rifles better, my gat rifle-needs love
PPS, if anyone wants to make suggestions for characters, Im willing to take some PM messages.
Clownst0pper
06-07-04, 23:27
I got my lowtech PE using a judge, getting 178% dmg on it, Level 3 armour, Blessed deflector + Shelter, Hazard 1 and hacking tl 120-
If that isnt good enough, well, people need to experiment more.
Ive always stood by that PE's shouldnt ever find it easy to ******** 1 on 1 but it should be possible!
Doc Holliday
06-07-04, 23:54
I found in op wars there were uses for my pe, i used to chase the weakened peeps who were hiding for the ppus to heal and finish them of, due to my speed and resists and my self reliance i was very usefull in the fact i was killing people without the ppu having to watch me to buff me etc.
I would hunt droners and wait for apus to start loosing deflects normally after i finished finding the weak and start on them.
I found tbh i was an effective fighting unit within the field purely fr the fact i hadn't got to rely on ppus and thus i could move about much freely in the fight.
Thanks mate. u saved me the job. why is it people underestimate a pes worth? they have to pick their fights carefully plain and simple. ok they arent the toughest fastest strongest hardest hitting what ever classes in game BUT they have their uses. Think of em like the vehicles in a game of ut. tank = tank. spy = raptor monk =manta/hellbender (depends on the way u look at either.)
pe = the little buggy thing. fast in fast out attack hit hard run off. apologies and no disrepect to any people having mentioned this before but i couldnt be arsed to sit through the entire thread to give my 2 pence. thats it. thanks for reading.
PEs have a tendancy to go to an op war and look at a tank damage and say to themselves I dont outdamage a tank, look at a spy and say I dont outdamage a spy and the look at an apu and say I dont outdamage an apu, then say I suck Im nerfed I cant do anything I have to go make a whine thread on the forums.
Look at a PEs stats he has no real strength bu no real weaknesses withe so you cant expect him to out-perform other classes, another thing with PEs is that very few use damage boost in PvP which is just stupid, it raises damage a hell of a lot but the only one type of PE I ever see using it is the melee PE and I think its because they tend yo think I dont have a rare weapon so I need an edge.
PEs cant be used in OP fights as damage dealers but as lta said they have other uses such as running down hurt people waiting for heals running outside the main fight to where people are trying to get buffed and to DB ppus and generally make a prick of themselves and cause as much confusion and prey on as much weakness as possible.
I got my lowtech PE using a judge¨
Que ?
Anyway, Xantors idea about raising shelter to PSI 30 is a good idea. Jusst to stop the PE orientated spys. Spys are supposed to be the "APU class of non-monks", if u know what i mean. But then ofcourse the Rifle and pistol issues needs to be solved, as those both are very different, PvP wise. A spy can play it's role in combat without the shelter.
Limiting drug use to only 1 drug at a time taken would sort out the spy orientated PE, that uses weapons like Exec, slasher, HL, SH etc. Weapons of that kind were never supposed to be used by PEs.
Remove DEX bonus from PE PAs. All of them. Jusst to compensate that, add more pistol / rifle bonus and maybe some more armor. By doing this, PEs will still be able to use the lower-mid TL rares at a far more satisfying damage and rof. (Maybe even add HC, MC and tradeskill PAs for PEs.)
I like my PEs, i play RC, MC, HC and sometimes my mates PC PE. But they have jusst lost their role in combat, and been replaced by combat orientated spys. To measure up with sometinhg like that, you simply HAVE to drug a as a PE. That is jusst wrong.
So what people think is that nerfing solo spies will boost PEs?
If spies are meant to be dex based apus for no better phrasing why not give them the funky apu armour and I personally wont care about losing a self-cast shelter.
Other then nerfing spy resists I can see to a certain extent that it will slighty boost a PEs defence but it will also make the spell harder for a PE to cap so I cant see a major benefit to PEs coming from it.
I really dont see the point PEs make about PEs having to use drugs to use high level stuff, the class has no specialities so how can you expect to be able to use the high level weapons and armour without using drugs to boost you levels to do so?
Clownst0pper
07-07-04, 01:41
¨
Que ?
Apologies gohei, spelling mistake, I meant I got my PE with lowtech "style resists" using a judge-
Best of both worlds
Given how rare they are, what PE is going to waste a spirit mod by putting it in a Commando Sniper Rifle.. because believe me, without stealth, using a Silent Hunter isn't worth the pain.
You can't put spirit mods into commando sniper rifles. They only work on silent hunters. Otherwise you'd see tanks running around with tangent 1B snipers with spirit mods in them.
And, to post a quote that Rai and I both know very well...
The only reason to have my PE is to say "hey look at me Im playing the most usless class in the game, and if I really practice, I can beat other classes who arent very good players, but not the best ones, or I can pretend to be hot shit because I use 3 drugs, but after 5-10 mins Im flashed to hell and useless, whoo hoo"
In other words... there is no reason to have a PE over a tank or spy or monk. Compared to Tanks, PEs do a lot less damage and have equal defense, for maybe 2 minutes (or less if you're running) until Shelter and Deflector run out. That's both kinds of tank. Against spies, defense is better but offense is worse by far. If both classes drug, then they're about equal defense but PEs have slightly worse offense. PE vs APU is about even, except that APU is a lot easier to use and with a PPU, APU is way better than a PE.
I went back to playing my lowtech PE on Uranus tonight, and I went to Neofrag like you do, and lost every fight (ok, so I didnt have a blessed deflector and for the first few fights, my shelter was shop bought and my armour broke, but thats not the point :p). I havent played a PE since December last year, so I'm very rusty with the 3rd person view, lost the timing with the stamina boosters (which is stupid tbh, lowtech riflemen are always let down because stamina runs out quicker than me when a girl says "i'm pregnant" :lol: thats a joke btw to the anti-sexist people :p).
My pain easer on Uranus is a training 2 slot uranium job, i cap dmg n stuff, but I also got 80 poke in int I'm gunna have to get rid of, but I'm severly out of practice (and with my pluto PE account bein deactivated, I cant practice for hours with Killer :( ). Now, with practice, and proper spells instead of the crap ones I got (and an SA would come in handy too, and also that last 5 con and 2 dex :p) I'm very sure my PE would be able to compete (as long as they fix that spirit mod BS, i mean, wtf is up with that crap?). Or I could do the lame thing and drug up like everyone else for godlike defence, and be uber now :p
But looking back on it, I can see how the Pain Easer, which is the most beautiful gun in the game, is underpowered (ok, I'd have better chance with a Phos modded PE), against Spies a Uranium one sux (yay 114 xray) against pistol PE's you got to cope with the speed, and against everything you have to cope with the stamina drain, running+fire=4shot's or so till 0 stamina. Everything is stacked against the Rifle PE's, pistols can use the slasher or get the stacking on an Earp going.
Given time and a lot more practice (tempting to bring my Pluto PE back to practice with Killer :p) I know I could win most of the fights in NF that i fought tonight (cept the stupid Spirit Mod BS), but why should I have to hone my skills up, when I can just delete, make a melee tank, and be over powered? I'd prefer my PE to be viable, I've been a rifle PE since Beta 4, I dont want to go pistols.
/edit - and I dont want a new toy! just my beloved pain easer to actually cause enough damage to kill a spy in 2 seconds, k!!
Clive tombstone
07-07-04, 02:24
how about this.
#1, up the damage on ALL lowtech rifles (even more so on the non rares)
#2, Fix techlevels of lowtech Rifles (damnit, I want ether a rare street rifle, or at least a high tl one ^^[I want my lowtech sniper ^^])
#3, lower stam on lowtech, and maybe hightech rifles, I mean really, I play paintball ball, and when im doing a full on charge, and firing at the same time, Im not out of breath so easily (and No, Im not a genetically engeneer'ed soldier, nor a government spy :p )
Honestly, does that sound so bad? I mean, right now, I have my Old , lovable, tangent gatling gun, I love the gun, but for its tl, its damage is lacking. it would be nice if acc and damage on lowtech rifles was fixed.
once again, TRIKE Pe's are good in combat, im personally, a trike/lowtech rifle PE, And I enjoy myself, but I havnt had to much trike practice in PvP,
edit(Pain easer accuracy needs some fixin, its a rifle for crying out loud :D )
So what people think is that nerfing solo spies will boost PEs?
If spies are meant to be dex based apus for no better phrasing why not give them the funky apu armour and I personally wont care about losing a self-cast shelter.
Other then nerfing spy resists I can see to a certain extent that it will slighty boost a PEs defence but it will also make the spell harder for a PE to cap so I cant see a major benefit to PEs coming from it.
I really dont see the point PEs make about PEs having to use drugs to use high level stuff, the class has no specialities so how can you expect to be able to use the high level weapons and armour without using drugs to boost you levels to do so?
Yes, spies have wandered off and taken the PEs place, and we can't blame them. The spys damg is a lot higher, and the defence is jusst as good, when speccing outside the mainskills that is.
A 5 TL increase of the Shelter will do little difference as the damage % has no effect on the protection ability after a certain point.
My suggestins are not really about boosting anything, as the PE never got nerfed in the first place. Jusst one tool that got removed from them (that i hated btw). So theres no need to boost anything. PEs have managed before, without the stealth, and they do now. But, it is a fact that they deliver to little damage and has little defence to compensate that, if you compare to the other classes PvP ability.
So what i'm suggesting is to make the original PE weapons more appealing. And put back spies at their origial place, as a good damage dealer, if you specc within your mainskill.
PE's definately need something that gives them a purpose, i only use my capped pistol PE for farming warbots, i only take him to outposts when we need a hacker then once my layer is hacked i log to my tank.
Rifle PE's being particularly bad with the Pain Easer being the only weapon worth carrying, i lom'd from hitech rifle to lowtech pistol
godamnit doc and snow I didn't say PEs are useless, but relatively weak compared to other classes. Yeah sure PEs are good, but they are hard to play, well guess what other classes are "easy to play" yet are better. Does that make you think something?
Yeah sure who does the scavenging and killing off the weak and weakened in an op fight: the WEAKEST. Ones that cannot compete with other players using another class of equal skill. Its just like saying yeah a <<<< newbie is useful because noone will shoot him and he can pick off the weakened. Same thing.
Pain Easer is fine, but the reloading problems gets me. I hate having my gun stuck in the middle of something or reloading suddenly after 2 shots.
and mr.snow its true we never had done as much damage as other classes, but we had a secondary skill and stealth so it was okay, but now with stealth removed and no new toy for us, there is no point in us compared to spies truly. Not only a well setup spy is good, but a poorly setup one is decent and the ability to stealth is favourable in "any" situation. Albeit used to run away or just suprise attack you can't neglect that stealth is an asset to balance.
We have always been the worst in the teamplay situation, but now our position is threatened in the solo area, in NF the results I repeat are not fair because you are fighting in a ridiculously enclosed area, fully buffed en guard, and completely fair (no stealth or support) winning someone in NF does not mean you would win him in MB. Also you have no idea how impossible it is to kill a stealthing spy, stealth is overpowered. I could spend literally 30 minutes trying to hunt a spy down then only to give up, yet the spy does as much and even more damage then a PE.
So what leaves us PE at? Really the "common villager class" played by NPCs?
And before you say PEs are meant to be a class for "test driving abilities" I think everyone would want to be someone better if they had the choice rather then be a common, this is a game people get to choose who they are you can't offer a race to be underpowered it just isn't fair in the end game, and nobody would want to use a class that gives little reward, yet requires nearly the highest skill to play next to the PPU.
ResurgencE
07-07-04, 12:01
Apologies gohei, spelling mistake, I meant I got my PE with lowtech "style resists" using a judge-
Have the exact same PE. I recently lommed him from hi-tech to low-tech, and lo and behold, his imp setup and resists were exactly the same.
The only difference was a slight increase in speed even without having to resort to PA, because you can add little more agl from PC/TC, and stick in a reflex booster 4 instead of a exp reflex for libby/wyatt.
I think the Judge PE with the low-tech style resists (its easy to figure out, so im not gonna post it in respect for those who dont like setups posted) is one of the best options for a PE right now.
Too bad, once again, it makes him nothing special. Dont make PEs stronger in combat. Make PEs useful in combat. Give them like the ability to use a special item out in the field which is PE only.
What the item should be, i leave you to decide.
QuantumDelta
07-07-04, 12:20
Simple;
To gloat when you kill someone of any other class.
Because they're obviously that pathetic in comparison to you.
And don't even get me started on Op Wars; PEs whole use there;
Turret whore.
Damage Boost.
Hack.
Forget trying to kill anyone.
ResurgencE
07-07-04, 12:24
Turret whore.
Thats lame.
Damage Boost.
PPUs do that faster.
Hack.
Monks and spies do that as well. Nothing but a glorified spy.
Forget trying to kill anyone.
Fine. Then give PEs something else, if they cannot even kill during an OP war.
If you're being sardonic, i didnt get it.
Simple;
Forget trying to kill anyone.The weakened!1
lol thats all i did in op wars, once them peeps had buffs i was no where near to their level, so i have to wait till someone else pans half the shit out of em and makes em run, then at least i am fast enough to chase em and finish em.... if i am lucky :S
When at a op war my owning advantage is i am self sufficient but everyone else gets taken up a level and pes get left on the lower level, unless you drug and whore a exe then you could prolly own quite a few peeps with the benefits of pc 3...
QuantumDelta
07-07-04, 12:27
Oh yea I missed one, among other exploits, the PE is the best TL3 Heal Exploiter too.
Why use a PE over anything else? Only class that that drive and gun all currently available vehicles.
QuantumDelta
07-07-04, 12:34
Why use a PE over anything else? Only class that that drive and gun all currently available vehicles.
Okay, that's one truth, but it still leaves you combat ineffective compared to other classes.
Tanks are far more powerful than anything a PE can Drive/Gun -- Especially when those tanks have Anti-VHCs on them.
--
You are a gimp if you are a HC PE.
You may not feel like it because you've done well with your setup, but the simple fact is;
Any DEX Using PE will be more combat effective than you, and that... is depressing.
Okay, that's one truth, but it still leaves you combat ineffective compared to other classes.
Tanks are far more powerful than anything a PE can Drive/Gun -- Especially when those tanks have Anti-VHCs on them.
--
You are a gimp if you are a HC PE.
You may not feel like it because you've done well with your setup, but the simple fact is;
Any DEX Using PE will be more combat effective than you, and that... is depressing.
Tell it to the hordes of dead people i leave behind :D I cap damage on the speed gat and the frequency is pritty effective, although most of my kills are made from my Reveler gunner seat.
QuantumDelta
07-07-04, 12:46
But the only two advantages TSG has over Lib now is Range and ease of aim.
Clip size to a degree but generally I'd say a well used lib was still more powerful..
Reveler would die in a few anti-vhc rockets ..just your enemies haven't learnt to carry'em yet :p
Reveler would die in a few anti-vhc rockets ..just your enemies haven't learnt to carry'em yet :p
That is assuming there is a HC tank/PE around...you know the new MC fad? Works in my favour :D
QuantumDelta
07-07-04, 12:56
You run slower with cannons out ... MC vs HC = Bad :p
Though in your Reveler obviously yea ;)
Why use a PE over anything else? Only class that that drive and gun all currently available vehicles.Jeah, now. The big glieder will have over the top Int requirements so no big birds for the PE.
PEs are good 1:1 PvP chars, .........when they have the time to prepare. No preparation-> hello GR.
PEs are very bad team players. Every other class is a better teamplayer (ever played a pistol PE against a PPU buffed pistol spy?). So combined with the fact that a PE is hard to play (drug, buffs) the PE is the underdog.
But he looks better than every other class and has the coolest chicks:)! So there is the reason to play an PE :p
ResurgencE
07-07-04, 13:51
Why use a PE over anything else? Only class that that drive and gun all currently available vehicles.
a) Thats a gimp.
b) Thats again a wannabe tank, cept he can drive. But the problem is:
c) He had to specialise to do it, and he also cannot drive and gun a rhino simultaneously.
The PE should be able to use good dex-based weaponry and do a bit of everything without gimpage. If you ask me why, you have not bothered to read through the link i posted, and therefore i cannot be bothered to respond to you. :p
(Not you, Genty. I mean anyone who asks me why without first reading the aforementioned link. :D )
Btw, i cant seem to find the requirements of the combat vehicles on the synergy site. I have all the BPs, but cant be arsed to make one if it requires gimpage.
a) Thats a gimp.
Personally, I call it not being cookie cutter, generally all of my main chars are a little bit odd when it comes to setups.
First it was Genty, the TAR PPU.
Now it's Jess, the HC PE (with repair...hack....vehicle)
As a rule of thumb, i don't do "normal".
ResurgencE
07-07-04, 15:41
Personally, I call it not being cookie cutter, generally all of my main chars are a little bit odd when it comes to setups.
Thats cool, of course. Variations are always fun to play.
What i mean is, a tank can do all that better. He has access to higher TL weaponry, and can also gun anything. Only difference is, he cant drive, but then again, neither can the PE without getting out of the gunner's seat first.
I think if they mess around with the PEs combat skills too much, theres gonna be too much of a shift in balance. Thats why a PE-only tool would be great. It doesnt even have to have anything to do with combat.
Original monk
07-07-04, 15:46
i wasnt following the thread exactly but i still suggest giving PE's somekind of jetpack like Judge is asking here since about a year and a half :)
euh thats a start right :)
The vehicles are crap, they are fun and I do not deny HC PE is fun, but yeah they are gimps, but not terrible gimps taken into the fact they can take a lot more skills then just using a speed gat, however on the competition level it still offers nothing to compete.
Still something vettero suggested a while back would balance PEs, giving them ability to see stealthers and a a fair weapon in the tl100 area would be very nice for both pistol and rifle.
Still something vettero suggested a while back would balance PEs, giving them ability to see stealthers and a a fair weapon in the tl100 area would be very nice for both pistol and rifle.
Gotta love the PE we dont have stealth so lets nerf it attitude, this was suggested several times as a rare eye but was booed down by the PE part of the community as a nerf but before it the spy only req was patched onto the retail server it was already being tabled again by PEs to nerf spies.
RoG is a damn good rifle and is piss easy to aim, what else do you want around tl 100?
Judge is okay may need a bit more power behind it but you need to bare in mind the mobility of pistol pes is meant to make up for doing less damage then riflers.
If anything stronger comes in then the current rifles/pistols it would only mean that the higher tl pistols and rifles would have to have their damage raised in comparison to these weapons and peoplew ould be crying about overpowered spies and drugwhore PEs.
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