View Full Version : Koster's Laws of online gaming - a Neocron view
As some kind of preparation for my studies, I went over
Koster's Laws (http://www.legendmud.org/raph/gaming/laws.html) of online gaming and did a little commenting with a special view regarding Neocron. I dropped the ones which where either stupid or not applicable at all. Thought someone might like it, pardon my language flaws, though.
Design Rules
The secrets to a really long-lived, goal-oriented, online game of wide
appeal
• have multiple paths of advancement (individual features are nice, but
making them ladders is better)
• make it easy to switch between paths of advancement (ideally, without
having to start over)
• make sure the milestones in the path of advancement are clear and
visible and significant (having 600 meaningless milestones doesn't
help)
• ideally, make your game not have a sense of running out of significant
milestones (try to make your ladder not feel finite)
1. Multiple Paths of advancement are nice, but very hard to implement.
Neocron has only one way of advancement. Since there are only very few
quests which yield a minimum amount of experience points, the only way
to advance is by leveling, i.e. killing monsters.
There are two ways to do so, on the one hand side the very fast way of
killing monster only for xp gain (like in the various caves) and on the
other the slower way of killing monsters for xp AND loot. Unfortunately
there are no ways of getting xp any other way if players really want to
progress. The so-called "trade-skills" like constructing, research and
the like do not yield enough xp to be used for advancing. This leads
essentially to the necessity of having to have a combat skill, a
non-violent playing style is not possible. Since the game itself is
very combat-orientated, this is not necessarily a problem, though.
2. Since there are no different paths of advancement, this point is not
applicable.
3. Since the only way to advance is leveling, it can be said that the
"milestones" are definately clear - the exact amount of xp needed to
advance is always visible.
4. As has been pointed out elsewhere, MMORPGs usually have some kind of
end-point. The end-point is the point where a player can not advance
anymore. In Neocron this endpoint is not hidden but clearly visible -
as soon as you have reached the skill limit for your character class,
you are there. Players talk about "capping", or reaching the "cap".
Having reached this end-point or having gotten near it makes it
possible to "participate in the END GAME" (quote). The end game in
Neocron consists of PvP and fights for control of outposts. For most
players, reaching the ability to participate in the end-game is the
primary, often even only goal for advancing their character. Reaching
this ability, i.e. capping your character is very easy in Neocron.
Skilled and experienced players can usually reach the cap within days.
Since the game revolves so much around combat and fighting for
outposts, this is actually a very nice feature indeed. Forcing players
to level for months before they can participate in the end game is not
a good idea, since the end game is the main goal in Neocron. The fact
that reaching the cap so easily has been discussed a lot in the
community, but for Neocron it is working absolutely fine and it would
be suicide for the developers to change it (i.e. make it harder).
Since the participation in the end game is the goal, the advancement
possibilities have to be finite. Even with the possible advancement
beyond the current with the introduction of "overcapping" in the
upcoming expansion, the game has to be balanced. This balance is
necessary to make it possible for all players to be able to participate
in the end game. The biggest flaw is also the biggest strength - the
balance of the characters. Even though the characters have different
strengths and weaknesses, there is essentially no character class which
is worthless in combat. The problem of balance has been discussed by the community and the development team is constantly trying to work
on the balance, listening to community input.
Modes of expression
You're trying to provide as many modes of expression as possible in your
online world. Character classes are just modes of expression, after
all.
This law does not really work for Neocron, if it works at all. Neocron
has four character classes, and no matter how many classes other games
have, the Neocron classes are the basic four and all others can be
broken down to these four. No matter what the names for the classes are
- the basic four are always Fighter, Magic-user, worker and the
A-bit-of-everyting-character. Since Neocron is so heavily promoting
combat, it would be unwise to change this scheme. Even a more open
skill-system would probably not work, since it would make PvP balance
next to impossible - that is one of the main reasons why the so called
"hybrid", was killed off. And even though the skill-system seems to be
pretty closed, the abilities are in fact pretty astonishing. It is
possible to have a magic-user with a "trade" skill and still be able
participate in end-game style PvP.
Persistence means it never goes away
Once you open your online world, expect to keep your team on it
indefinitely. Some of these games have never closed. And closing one
prematurely may result in losing the faith of your customers, damaging
the prospects for other games in the same genre.
Not really applicable. Reakktor may have lost a lot of credibility by
the constant delay of the expansion and by having to admit it not being
a free download, eventually. But what must be considered are the
smallness of the company compared to others and the problems with the
publisher. No game developer will work on an expansion when it is not
even clear if it is possible to release it at all. And no publisher
wants to release a game for free, either. The game is nearing its
second birthday and is still looking very strong with many loyal
players. The main way to keep customers, though, is new content. This
content has been very slow in the coming, which probably has to do with
the delay of the expansion, too. Still, the players feel new content is
a necessity, besides the end game that is what keeps them in the game.
Perhaps it would have been better to communicate the problems
concerning the content to the community more clearly. The situation was
not helped by the changes within the developer team, either.
Nonetheless, new content is being introduced only very slowly, much to
the distress of the few roleplayers.
Macroing, botting, and automation
No matter what you do, someone is going to automate the process of
playing your world.
This is very true for Neocron. Players tend to automate processes if
they are boring and timeconsuming. Unfortunately in Neocron next to all
worker-skills involve hideous amounts of dumb clicking and waiting. The
whole process of constructing an item, from research to final
production is flawed very, very badly. Since the quality of an item is
regarded as very important for PvP and a high quality item is also a
status symbol, macroing is widespread among players. The only
way to prevent it would be changing the whole design of the process,
which is unfortunately unlikely.
Corollary
Looking at what parts of your game players tend to automate is a good
way to determine which parts of the game are tedious and/or not fun.
See above.
Game Systems
No matter what you do, players will decode every formula, statistic, and
algorithm in your world via experimentation.
True. Patch day usually sees players fiddling with their skill-setup for
hours. Even though there is constant complaining about it in the
forums, this is actually a good thing. Players obviously care about the
game and their characters. Observing how the playerbase as a whole
reacts to changes gives the developers the ability to improve the game
according to the players wishes. If this is done by Reakktor, I can not
say, though.
The worst about the experimentation and the decoding is something else. As players notice that chance (i.e. "luck") is a major factor,
they become frustrated. They feel they have no possibility to
actually influence the outcome, even though up to a point things
should definately be in their hands - they feel cheated. In Neocron this leads to
automation, too.
It is always more rewarding to kill other players than to kill whatever
the game sets up as a target.
A given player of level x can slay multiple creatures of level y.
Therefore, killing a player of level x yields my reward in purely
in-game reward terms. Players will therefore always be more rewarding
in game terms than monsters of comparable difficulty. However, there’s
also the fact that players will be more challenging and exciting to
fight than monsters no matter what you do.
Certainly true. Neocron lives from its reliance on PvP. Loads of players
are playing Neocron because in their opinion it offers
the best PvP available.
Never trust the client.
Never put anything on the client. The client is in the hands of the
enemy. Never ever forget this.
Rather unfortunately, this is true. Even though most players will not
exploit, some always will. The only way to combat it, besides not
putting "anything on the client" is logging. A good logging mechanism
and a good database will enable the developers to find the culprits and
prevent most exploits. Sadly, it seems like Neocron does not offer
either.
J.C. Lawrence’s “do it everywhere” law
If you do it in one place, you have to do it everywhere. Players like
clever things and will search them out. Once they find a clever thing
they will search for other similar or related clever things that seem
to be implied by what they found and will get pissed off if they don’t
find them.
Generally true, but not really applicable to Neocron.
Hyrup’s “do it everywhere” corollary
The more detailed you make the world, the more players will want to
break away from the classical molds.
Not necessarily "how detailed", but "how different". As has been said,
the main reason to play Neocron for most players is the unique blend of
PvP it offers. A more detailed world would probably lead to a wider
appeal to roleplayers, though.
Dr Cat’s Stamp Collecting Dilemma
“Lots of people might like stamp collecting in your virtual world. But
those who do will never play with those who like other features. Should
you have stamp collecting in your world?” We know that there are a wide
range of features that people find enjoyable in online worlds. We also
know that some of these features conflict with one another. Given the
above, we don’t yet know if it is possible to have a successful world
that incorporates all the features, or whether the design must choose
to exclude some of them in order to keep the players happy.
If so, Neocron did it. It is definately possible to "collect stamps" in
the game and still be part of the PvP system and take part in the whole
rest of the game. But overall this is only true because the whole game
is based on player interaction with next to no quests existing. So,
Neocron makes the players interact with each other, but the reason is
an unfortunate one.
Koster’s Law (Mike Seller was actually the one to dub thus)
The quality of roleplaying is inversely proportionate to the number of
people playing.
Not true. Roleplaying is first and foremost influenced by gameplay.
If there is a high level of immersion, there will be roleplaying.
Neocron does not offer this kind of immersion for roleplayers, which is
very unfortunate. And even though it is considered a Roleplaying Game,
the player base consists mostly of people interested in PvP, not
roleplay. Thus, it seems like the developers do not see the necessity
of changing the base for roleplaying, even if it would be very easy to
do so (by implementing roleplaying items, advancing the story, etc.). On the other hand,
roleplaying in online games is very, very slow anyway, which is a
problem of the players, it is very hard to get some good
roleplaying going when most of the players just can not type fast
enough to keep the action going.
Hyrup’s Counter-observation
The higher the fee, the better the roleplayers (and of course, the
smaller the playerbase).
Definately not true. Neocron is the best example. Many of the hardcore
players who are not into roleplaying at all own multiple characters which can
get very expensive indeed.
Storytelling versus simulation
If you write a static story (or indeed include any static element) in
your game, everyone in the world will know how it ends in a matter of
days. Mathematically, it is not possible for a design team to create
stories fast enough to supply everyone playing. This is the traditional
approach to this sort of game nonetheless. You can try a sim-style game
which doesn't supply stories but instead supplies freedom to make them.
This is a lot harder and arguably has never been done successfully.
Since the story progresses so extremly slowly in Neocron, it can almost
be said to be non-existing. The outline is there, but it is not getting
filled. There is no such thing as a constantly progressing storyline.
This leads to an almost static setting with no suprises. The only
shifts within the game (but not the story) are produced by the players
themselves - by changing sides from time to time.
Players have higher expectations of the virtual world
The expectations are higher than of similar actions in the real world.
For example: players will expect all labor to result in profit; they
will expect life to be fair; they will expect to be protected from
aggression before the fact, and not just to seek redress after the
fact; they will expect problems to be resolved quickly; they will
expect that their integrity will be assumed to be beyond reproach; in
other words, they will expect too much, and you will not be able to
supply it all. The trick is to manage the expectations.
Not true. Of course players want to do things they can not do in
real-life, if this was not true they would not have a reason to play in
the first place. Of course they want to be "winners" within the gaming
context, as far as this is possible. Expectations are indeed high, but
the players have shown that they can indeed cope with an incredible amount
of frustration, delays, bugs and the like.
.. to be continued
Online game economies are hard
A faucet -> drain economy is one where you spawn new stuff, let it pool
in the ‘sink’ that is the game, and then have a concomitant drain.
Players will hate having this drain, but if you do not enforce ongoing
expenditures, you will have Monty Haul syndrome, infinite accumulation
of wealth, overall rise in the ‘standard of living’ and capabilities of
the average player, and thus unbalance the game design and poor game
longevity.
Very, very true. Neocron has this problem. The flaws are obvious: The skill "recylcing" leads to not having to spend money for
ammunition and the like, which is bad. The skill "barter" leads to low
prices in a game that has far too much money, already. Construction of
items is far too cheap overall, it should lead to a net loss, while it
does lead to a net gain. Items do not break fast enough, so called
"rares" are not rare at all, which leads to inflated prices. Leveling
not only earns players XP, but also money. While this may sound like a
good idea to help new players get into the game, it is a very bad idea
later on. Of course there will always be players who are "rich" and
others who are "poor" no matter what the developers do, but the drain
effect in Neocron is far too weak. The solution most games have for the
constant influx of money are luxury items (for roleplayers) which are
expensive but almost a necessity. Others include items which can only
be bought and not obtained otherwise. Another problem of Neocron is the
ability to store as much as you like. It leads to constant increase of
items available. If the storage amount is limited, players are forced
to part with items.
Ownership is Key
You have to give players a sense of ownership in the game. This is what
will make them stay – it is a ‘barrier to departure.’ Social bonds are
not enough, because good social bonds extend outside the game. Instead,
it is context. If they can build their own buildings, build a
character, own possessions, hold down a job, feel a sense of
responsibility to something that cannot be removed from the game – then
you have ownership.
True, exept for the "job" part. Nothing sucks more than playing a "job"
online. Actions that have the feeling of being a job are those which
are macroed - they are boring and repetitive.
If your game is narrow, it will fail.
Your game design must be expansive. Even the coolest game mechanic
becomes tiresome after a time. You have to supply alternate ways of
playing or alternate ways of experiencing the world. Otherwise, players
will go to another world where they can have new experiences. This
means new additions, or better yet, completely different subgames
embedded in the actual game.
Neocron does offer various ways of playing. But even though it does, the
main appeal is still PvP. And it can get tiresome as most players will
notice. New content is needed to attract new players and to get
old ones back into the game. The complaining can be heared daily, even
though most players do stay a lot longer than they probably anticipated
themselves. Subgames will not help the game, but new content like
quests and and advancement in the storyline will.
Lambert's Laws:
• As a virtual world’s ‘realism’ increases, the pool of possible
character actions increase.
• The opportunities for exploitation and subversion are directly
proportional to the pool size of possible player actions
• A bored player is a potential and willing subversive.
• Players will eventually find the shortest path to the cheese.
1. True.
2. True.
3. True. But there are always players who will be bored. No developer
will ever be able to deliver enough content for true hardcore players.
They will "complete" or "win" the game within months, if not weeks or days, no
matter what. This is not so much a problem for Neocron as it is for
other games, since the thrill of PvP will stay far longer than any
other form of content.
4. True. But not really applicable to Neocron since this is mainly true
for quests and the like.
Featuritis
No matter how many new features you have or add, the players will always
want more.
True. And no matter what developers do, if they introduce a new quest -
it will be solved within hours, if they introduce a new feature -
players will find out within hours.
Pleasing your players
Despite your best intentions, any change will be looked upon as a bad
change to a large percentage of your players. Even those who forget
they asked for it to begin with.
Definately true. This can be easily observed in the forums after every
single patch. BUT - it is only true because players hate nerfing. In
Neocron nerfing is almost a necessity, since it relies so much on PvP
the balance has to be tweaked all the time. Developers just can not
thing about every setup possible - but players can. They are simply
more people with more time.
Murphy’s Law
Servers only crash and don’t restart when you go out of town.
Whatever. Compared to other MMORPGs, the down times in Neocron are very,
very low. Players do not believe this, of course.
Hanarra’s Laws
• Over time, your playerbase will come to be the group of people who
most enjoy the style of play that your world offers. The others will
eventually move to another game.
• It is very hard to attract players of different gaming styles after
the playerbase has been established. Any changes to promote different
styles of play almost always conflict with the established desires of
the current playerbase.
• The ultimate goal of a virtual world is to create a place where people
of all styles of play can contribute to the world in a manner that
makes the game more satisfying for everyone.
• The new players who enter the world for the first time are the best
critics of it.
• The opinions of those who leave are the hardest to obtain, but give
the best indication of what changes need to be made to reach that
ultimate goal.
1. True. But players will stay (longer) if they have a broad amount of
possibilities. That is probably why Neocron offers so much for PvP but
so (comparibly) little for RP. The developers listen(ed) to the
community more than they should (have).
2. Not true. The game could be tweaked towards more RP easily without
conflicting with the PvP community.
3. Not possible. Especially not in a game like Neocron which is so much
PvP orientated. On the other hand you could say that is exactly what
Neocron is offering - the sides offer each other good fights all the
time and thus increase the fun for (almost) everyone.
4. Not true. Many new players complain about things which can not be
changed and ask for features which are (next to) impossible to
implement. Loads of senior players have played many other games and
truly understand the concepts and possibilities of such games. In fact I would go as far
as saying most players have absolutely no idea what it means to develop
and manage such a game.
5. Not necessarily true. There will be (and are) always players who
really, really care about the game and make suggestions on how to
improve it - without just leaving. Much time and effort go into their
posts in the forums.
Elmqvist’s Law
In an online game, players find it rewarding to save the world. They
find it more rewarding to save the world together, with lots of people.
People do not want to save the world. In Neocron, probably nobody really
wants to save it. They want to fight to see their side win. Of course
they want to do it with other people. That is the whole point of
clans/guilds/whatever in the first place and online games in general. And in Neocron the effect
their actions have, can clearly be seen - an outpost either belongs to
your clan/faction or it does not.
Baron’s Design Dichotomy
According to Jonathan Baron, there are two kinds of online games:
Achievement Oriented and Cumulative Character. In the former, the
players who ‘win’ do so because they are the best at whatever the game
offers. Their glory is achieved by shaming other players. In the
latter, anyone can reach the pinnacle of achievement by mere
persistence; the game is driven by sheer unadulterated capitalism.
Neocron is a mixture of both. On one side, it offers PvP which leads to
one side controlling an outpost, thus "shaming" another group. On the
other side, it offers capitalism at its best, even though it is true
only partly - a player with every item in the game can be called an
achiever, even though he/she will never be able to control an outpost
all by himself.
Online Identity
We spend a lot of time making people able to have a very strong personal
identity in our worlds (letting them define themselves in great detail,
down to the eye color.) But identity is portable. How many of you have
been playing the same character in RPGs for 15 years, like me? You
cannot count on a sense of identity, of character building, to keep
someone in your game.
I dare say Neocron players (with the exception of some roleplayers) usually do not have an emotional bond with
their character because they do not like it as character, but rather as a
perfectly skilled body ready to pounce on others. Character detail in
Neocron is downright laughable, but perfectly suits the way the game is
played.
In game calendars
It’s nice to have an in-game calendar. But emotional resonances will
never accrue to in-game holidays. The only calendar that really matters
is the real world one. Don’t worry about breaking fiction – online
gamers are about social interaction, not about fictional consistency.
True. Real-life holidays can be fun, ingame, too, as has been shown.
Social Laws
Koster's Theorem
Virtual social bonds evolve from the fictional towards real social
bonds. If you have good community ties, they will be out-of-character
ties, not in-character ties. In other words, friendships will migrate
right out of your world into email, real-life gatherings, etc.
Definately true. Has been shown to be true, has been done. A good thing.
Baron’s Theorem
Hate is good. This is because conflict drives the formation of social
bonds and thus of communities. It is an engine that brings players
closer together.
Sure. Until the hate is directed at the developers. All of a sudden,
players who hate each other ingame will be on the same side. Besides
that, the hate ingame does not necessarily bring players closer to each
other, on the contrary.
Baron’s Law
Glory is the reason why people play online; shame is what keeps them
from playing online. Neither is possible without other people being
present.
Not true. People play online games for various reasons, not just glory.
And what keeps them from playing are bad games and not shame. Every
single shamefull event, like a very bad defeat can be revenged ingame.
Mike Sellers’ Hypothesis
"The more persistence a game tries to have; the longer it is set up to
last; the greater number (and broader variety) of people it tries to
attract; and in general the more immersive a game/world it set out to
be--then the more breadth and depth of human experience it needs to
support to be successful for more than say, 12-24 months. If you try to
create a deeply immersive, broadly appealing, long-lasting world that
does not adequately provide for human tendencies such as violence,
acquisition, justice, family, community, exploration, etc (and I would
contend we are nowhere close to doing this), you will see two results:
first, individuals in the population will begin to display a wide range
of fairly predictable socially pathological behaviors (including
general malaise, complaining, excessive bullying and/or PKing,
harassment, territoriality, inappropriate aggression, and open
rebellion against those who run the game); and second, people will
eventually vote with their feet--but only after having passionately
cast 'a pox on both your houses.' In essence, if you set people up for
an experience they deeply crave (and mostly cannot find in real life)
and then don't deliver, they will become like spurned lovers—some
become sullen and aggressive or neurotic, and eventually almost all
leave."
To quote f13: "In other words: Don’t make a game if you don’t have
the developer and customer service support to handle. Big Game = Big
Team. Or even more simply: If you can’t stand the heat, get out of the
kitchen."
Watch out, Reakktor, the community is becoming neurotic... ;)
Schubert’s Law of Player Expectations
A new player’s expectations of a virtual world are driven by his
expectations of single-player games. In particular, he expects a
narrow, predictable plotline with well-defined quests carefully
sculpted for himself as the hero. He also expects no interference or
disruption from other players. These are difficult, and sometimes
impossible, expectations for a virtual world to actually meet.
Not true. Nobody will play Neocron (or any other MMORPG) like he/she
plays single-player games. You do not play Neocron for a couple hours
each week. Online players usually are hardcore players, logging on
almost daily, spending a hell of a lot of time ingame. They know it is
impossible for the developer to introduce new content as fast as they
lap it up and they know other players want to kill them, too. With
Neocron the problem of too little content is a bad one, though.
Violence is inevitable
You’re going to have violence done to people no matter what the
facilities for it in the game are. It may be the combat system,
stealing, blocking entrances, trapping monsters, stealing kills to get
experience, pestering, harassment, verbal violence, or just rudeness.
Sure. To deal with it, there must be rules and the rules must be
enforced. Of course not every single way of behavior can be predicted,
but it is always possible to introduce new rules accordingly. If there is proof of so called "griefplay",
punishement should be swift and severe. As with ingame mechanics,
people will have to accept that eventually somebody will use every
possible way to achieve his/her goals. If the game lets him/her act like that, either other players will have to accept his behavior and deal with it via ingame means or the developer has to react and change the design.
Is it a game?
It’s a SERVICE. Not a game. It’s a WORLD. Not a game. It’s a COMMUNITY.
Not a game. Anyone who says, ‘it’s just a game’ is missing the point.
Not true. It is a game. And everybody forgetting about this has a
problem. Of course it is a world, which has a community, but first and
foremost it is a game. People who go beyond that should get a life,
literally.
Identity
You will NEVER have a solid, unique identity for your problematic
players. They essentially have complete anonymity because of the
internet. Even addresses, credit cards, and so on can be faked – and
will be.
CD-keys are the key, literally. Keys with no logical system behind them can not
be faked. Sure, they can be bought cheaply over the internet
eventually, but it is a lot harder that way to get back into the game
once a player has been banned. Banning players should of course be the
last resort, but if they get banned, they should be banned for ever,
not just fo(u)r weeks. Four weeks ban for hundreds of duplicated items is
not a punishment, it is a joke and it will be viewed as such by the community.
Psychological disinhibition
People act like jerks more easily online, because anonymity is
intoxicating. It is easier to objectify other people and therefore to
treat them badly. The only way to combat this is to get them to
empathize more with other players.
No chance in combating it. It is just impossible. The really bad jerks
should get banned, that is it.
Anonymity and In-Game Admins
The in-game admin faces a bizarre problem. He is exercising power that
the ordinary virtual citizen cannot. And he is looked to in many ways
to provide a certain atmosphere and level of civility in the
environment. Yet the fact remains that no matter how scrupulously
honest he is, no matter how just he shows himself to be, no matter how
committed to the welfare of the virtual space he may prove himself,
people will hate his guts. They will mistrust him precisely because he
has power, and they can never know him. There will be false accusations
galore, many insinuations of nefarious motives, and former friends will
turn against him. It may be that the old saying about power and
absolute power is just too ingrained in the psyche of most people;
whatever the reasons, there has never been an online game whose admins
could say with a straight face that all their players really trusted
them (and by the way, it gets worse once you take money!).
Quoting f13: "Yes, this is true, people can’t be trusted. All a
company can do is higher [sic! - should be "hire" F.G.] the best and brightest that are willing to
work a thankless job, long hours, and can control themselves under
extreme stress. Beyond that you have no control. Call it Administrative
PvP."
Hans Henrik Staerfeldt’s Law of Player Admin Relations: The amount of
whining players do is positively proportional to how much you pamper
them
Many players whine if they see any kind of bonus in it for them. It will
simply be another way for them to achieve their goals. As an admin, you
hold the key to many of the goals that they have concerning the virtual
environment you control. If you do not pamper the players and let them
know that whining will not help them, the whining will subside.
So - just let the whiners whine. It does not help listening to them.
The hard part is telling the difference between whining and
legitimate complaints.
Hal Black’s Elaboration
The more responsive an admin is to user feedback of a given type, the
more of that type the admin will get. Specifically, as an admin
implements features from user suggestions, the more ideas for features
will be submitted. Likewise, the more an admin coddles whiners, the
more whining will ensue.
I.e. developers should listen to the community. If there is something
loads of people are complaining about, something with it is probably
really wrong. It is the developers job to do somthing about it then.
Rickey’s Law
Player’s don’t want ‘a story.’ They want ‘their story.’
Not true. They just want A story (if at all - the hardcore PvP players do not even want a story at all, they just do not care), a good one if possible. "Their story" is
single-player game thinking. The law is true for roleplaying though -
lots of roleplayers are very inflexible. They have a concept of "their"
world in their head and can not cope with other players not accepting
it. In Neocron this shows in statements like "this is a
post-apocalyptical world, violence is a natural thing, as is bad language,
being selfish and cruel is a necessity, too, accept it or piss off!".
This is a very narrow-minded view. Players introducing their version of
"Shadowrun" into the game might consider themselves good roleplayers
while they are actually not, since they lack the flexibility and
empathy to react accordingly.
Darklock's First Law
Cheating is an apparently advantageous violation of player assumptions
about the game. When those assumptions are satisfied, all apparently
advantageous methods are fair. When they are violated, no apparently
advantageous methods are fair. "Using exterior means to influence the
play of a game is not necessarily cheating. It is only cheating if it
violates the assumptions of other players *and* provides an advantage.
When a player expects that gaining levels in a game takes a long period
of time, he will call any method of gaining them rapidly "cheating" --
even if it is an intentional feature of the game. When he expects that
gaining levels is a rapid process, however, he will not think the
people gaining them slowly are cheating... because that is not an
apparently advantageous situation. It does not matter whether this
actually *is* an advantageous situation, only whether it *appears*
advantageous."
Sure. Cheating can be proven with evidence. To make it a more dangerous
activity for the players, the log level should be very high. Something
which is appearently not true for Neocron yet.
Corollary to Darklock's First Law
A bug is an apparently *disadvantageous* violation of player assumptions
about the game. "This may be viewed as a specific application of
Dundee's Law, "Fighting the battle for nomenclature with your players
is a futile act. Whatever they want to call things is what they will be
called." It does not matter whether "cheating" or a "bug" was an
intentional part of the game design; it only matters whether the
players *assumed* they were intentional."
Players will always find more bugs than any developer. They are more people and
they have more time. Punishment for not reporting a bug should be
severe, though.
Darklock's Second Law
Any violation of player assumptions is bad. "This follows from the first
law because allowing violation of player assumptions is --
pathologically -- a unilateral "license to cheat". When you license any
player to violate the assumptions of others, you imply a right for ALL
players to violate the assumptions of others, and they will attempt to
do so in an apparently advantageous fashion. This turns your playerbase
into a society of cheaters, under the umbrella of truths we hold to be
self-evident. (Which is, of course, a "slippery slope" argument. It
does not logically follow that *any* such playerbase MUST degenerate
into a society of cheaters; only that human nature and psychology make
some degree of such degeneration likely. Your mileage, as they say, may
vary.
If there is a certain way of play, players will use it, no matter if is
considered cheating or not.
If you managed to read it all up to here - congratulations. :)
Interesting post. I really doubt the bulk of players, at least on Neocron, really put that much thought into their role as a player in a mmorpg. Many of these rules make assumptions that logical thought is being put in by the player base. The fact that it is a game, and as such is attractive to the young ( youth synonymous with illogical behavior ), makes many of the problems pointed out in your post not really possible to fix. It is very difficult to predict illogical behavior, therefor it si difficult to prepare for said behavior. Many of the problematic issues don't work correctly for the same reasons communism doesn't work, not everyone can have everything so there will always be those who have and those who don't. There will always be so called greifers, because no matter how "good" your character(s) may be there will always be someone better, at least in a MMOrpg. MMO's are based at least partly on the concept there there is no clear winner of the game, merely just opportunities to either win or lose in that particular moment and time. All a MMO need to be successful is the ability to give the players what they are playing for in the first place, a feeling of achievement not likely attainable to the player in real life. To quote a study on EQ Addiction "Many people get addicted to games such as EQ because they find it easier to succeed in the game rather than in real life". Additionally imho a large portion of a players self worth can be attributed to their success in a game, which leads to persons leaving or otherwise, due to a loss of some kind in game. In essence they care more than they should and have long since forgotten that it "is just a game". These same people are offended by the statement that "its just a game" for those above reasons as well. They simply care to much. This is the most common reason for the hatred of nerfing, grief posts, and aberrant behavior towards developers, because when they mess with the game, your messing with at least a small portion of their total self worth. The truly hardcore player is often in this category, not on purpose, just cause they most likely lack that feeling of accomplishment in some other aspect in their real life ( the term get a life is applicable to these people ). Most of the rules expressed in your post are basically true in one form or another, and hopefully it will give some of the players who haven't really given this type of subject matter much thought something to think about. Perhaps it will help them in some way understand the difficulties in running/developing a game such as neocron and give them a perspective that may not be as negative towards the developers. We should all be grateful to the developers for making/maintaining or game of choice at the moment, for with out them, we would not have anything to gripe/care about. On a side note this is in no way excluding myself from my outlook on the typical mmo player. I'm addicted to neocron like a hooker with no front teeth is addicted to crack, and despite any failings the game apparently or otherwise has, I still play, and I submit any one who took the time to read my worthless opinion will probably do the same.
Congratulations on making the longest post ever in the history of man. :p I only skimmed the post and briefly visited the web site. It was interesting to see which designers said what corresponding to the games they are currently working on.
TheGreatMilenko
25-06-04, 22:16
[ edited ]
[ edited ]
agreed, ouch, space bar anyone? (lol sorry)
tho that's pretty cool way of looking at MMORPGS and breaking down neocron.
I read up to
The so-called "trade-skills" like constructing, research and
the like do not yield enough xp to be used for advancing.
and decided to stop right there. I am sorry...but you can level pure trade skiller all the way to cap if you so wish, sure it may be harder but it is still viable.
So basicly, remove Synaptic Imparement from loms?
Thats my summary.
Excellent, well-thought-out post.
Really highlights a lot of the psychology behind these games,
I agree with almost everything.
One problem though (as there inevitably is :P)
Players do not just whine because you coddle them, they also sometimes legitimately whine. KK really made a problem for themselves the moment it appeared that 'nerf' requests were valid feedback, but then again some things people whine about because they are legitimate issues. Finally fixing the TH-1 lifts was not coddling us, neither was the quick-fix for the alt-tab issue. And the amount of whining about the Termi run was probably perfectly justified. Fixing those issues was not coddling us, but good customer service.
Fact remains I pay a rather large sum of money to participate in their world, all of us do, and that does give us some right to request (politely) changes to the world we support.
also:
IMHO for an MMORPG to be successful, players must feel that they matter to the system. Your actions should have an effect on the game. In the ultimate, this will eventually take the form of a perfectly formable game where you can affect NPCs and the terrain itself like you can other players, but until the tech reaches that point, there must be some form of player/story control. Something Neocron sorely lacks. We are just helpless riders watching Neocron and the DoY go to war because... well because they have to in order to advance the plot. If a hundred players got together tomorrow and decided to eliminate every DoY bot in the northern sector, then go kill every STORM bot in existance to prevent the war... the war would still happen, because it has to to advance the plot.
This is the biggest problem with Neocron IMHO
Too long to read. Meh. Try to use paragraphs and not over 3-4 lines of text per paragraph otherwise it too hard to read.
I agree with almost everything.
Except your probably agreeing with Koter as most of the text is his.
I read up to
and decided to stop right there. I am sorry...but you can level pure trade skiller all the way to cap if you so wish, sure it may be harder but it is still viable.
Que ? O_o
Guess it is possible, if you want to spend 25 years doing it. But why bother when you can pick up a gun and have it done in a few weeks ?
I read up to
and decided to stop right there. I am sorry...but you can level pure trade skiller all the way to cap if you so wish, sure it may be harder but it is still viable.
If you want to participate in the "end game" it is not really an option. Possible, yes, as I wrote, but definately terribly slow, even with the amout of XP given after the last patch.
Players do not just whine because you coddle them, they also sometimes legitimately whine. KK really made a problem for themselves the moment it appeared that 'nerf' requests were valid feedback, but then again some things people whine about because they are legitimate issues. Finally fixing the TH-1 lifts was not coddling us, neither was the quick-fix for the alt-tab issue. And the amount of whining about the Termi run was probably perfectly justified. Fixing those issues was not coddling us, but good customer service.
Sure. That is why I wrote that it is sometimes very hard to distinguish whining from legitimate complains. Your examples are right on the spot - the TH-1 lifts and the Terminator run were pure desasters.
Fact remains I pay a rather large sum of money to participate in their world, all of us do, and that does give us some right to request (politely) changes to the world we support.
also:
IMHO for an MMORPG to be successful, players must feel that they matter to the system. Your actions should have an effect on the game. In the ultimate, this will eventually take the form of a perfectly formable game where you can affect NPCs and the terrain itself like you can other players, but until the tech reaches that point, there must be some form of player/story control. Something Neocron sorely lacks. We are just helpless riders watching Neocron and the DoY go to war because... well because they have to in order to advance the plot. If a hundred players got together tomorrow and decided to eliminate every DoY bot in the northern sector, then go kill every STORM bot in existance to prevent the war... the war would still happen, because it has to to advance the plot.
This is the biggest problem with Neocron IMHO
*Sigh* Indeed, that is a very big problem indeed. The feeling of not being involved shows perfectly in the complete lack of any difference between the factions. The factions just determine your enemies. But having the players influence the story line takes a tremendous amout of effort and a lot of flexibility - and for that you need a pretty big team.
Too long to read. Meh. Try to use paragraphs and not over 3-4 lines of text per paragraph otherwise it too hard to read.
Except your probably agreeing with Koter as most of the text is his.
It is Koster's collection actually. Lots of people were quoted. I just did a little commenting on his collection. Besides - I did a lot of disagreeing with the items in Koster's colletion. So it actually might help you reading the text before posting. ;)
I found it easy and interesting to read. Very good post in my opinion. Regarding leveling using tradeskills, the repair skill exploit 'fix' lowered all tradeskill exp gains making leveling by tradeskilling a pain the in the ass and head. Not to mention getting high level tradeskiller equipment by pure tradeskilling.
Crucificio
26-06-04, 01:19
Very well written and articulated post. All good points as well that factor into the quality and longevity of an MMORPG.
There were a few things I didn't think were 100% accurate, but they were minor.
But one thing I see people post occasionally that I don't think is true at all by any standard is.....
The game is nearing its
second birthday and is still looking very strong with many loyal
players.
By MMORPG standards......Neocron is surviving with a loyal following that likes the cyberpunk genre in a PC game and can't really adequately find it anywhere else. That's about it. Right now, except for a few indie games floating around out there (due to publisher woes), the only cyberpunk alternative to Neocron would probably be Anarchy Online, but Neocron really feels more cyberpunk than AO.
At last count, Everquest had over 400,000 paid accounts (with some subscribers having multiple accounts). With that type of customer base, EQ is "very strong", having upwards of 100,000 people online simultaneously at any given time due to players in various time zones. With less than 2000 people online (as far as I have seen recently), and some servers having less than 30 people online (from what I saw recently), Neocron is surviving. I hope the company uses advertising to its fullest potential to bring new life to Neocron when BDOY goes retail.
TheGreatMilenko
26-06-04, 01:58
[Odin Edit: Yes but the way your stating it is rude]
If your looking for a good read on the industry as a whole I would suggest Building Online Worlds (http://www.amazon.ca/exec/obidos/ASIN/1592730000/qid=1088208133/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/701-0561812-3932363) by Jessica Mulligan. Quite the interesting read and would give you some insight on stuff such as why we use MYSQL over MSSQL/Oracle.
If your looking for a good read on the industry as a whole I would suggest Building Online Worlds (http://www.amazon.ca/exec/obidos/ASIN/1592730000/qid=1088208133/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/701-0561812-3932363) by Jessica Mulligan. Quite the interesting read and would give you some insight on stuff such as why we use MYSQL over MSSQL/Oracle.
Sounds like a lot of money to find out it was just to save money. ;)
I don't have the will or the means to buy the book atm, but the database is quite a tricky subject. So why do you use MySQL (and what's happening about updating it?)? From what Jernau has said, it would seem that the database could be a source of FREs and sync problems - is this true, and to what extent will the updates with BDoY help the situation?
A confident answer would reassure the community a lot I think, FREs and syncs are big issue.
Well I'm no coder. I'm just the customer service whipping boy :)
There is a few paragraphs from one of the guys at Mythic (Dark Age of Camelot) talking about getting quotes from Microsoft et al. MSSQL was quoted to them at $30,000 and Oracle quoted them at the insane price of $900,000-$950,000. Considering most development teams can't justify those costs in early development they also went with MYSQL in the end. That's just a quick sum up as I read it a few weeks ago and he explained it in a few more paragraphs.
Pretty interesting topics in there. I dig it of course cause it mostly talks about ways to better improve CS which I'm always harping on around here hehe.
I figured it might come down to cost. Thanks for the info. :)
Nice Job, was very intresting to read.
Dribble Joy
26-06-04, 04:55
From what Jernau has said, it would seem that the database could be a source of FREs and sync problems - is this true, and to what extent will the updates with BDoY help the situation?
NC has a problem where the prog tries to access memory allocated to other applications, causing FREs.
Depending on each persons comp, this can cause some people more problems than others.
I will admit I did not read the post, I read the site re. the laws of online games.
All of which are very apt, and really, are more an explanation/derivation of human behavior given anonymaty (sp).
Short cuts will be found and 'exploited'.
You can NEVER balance on the basis of the average player, especially in NC, prime example being the hybrids. Though there are exceptions (I like to think myself as one of these), the vast majority of people want all the advantages and boosts that they can get.
People will expect everything and concede nothing.
Darklock's First Law
Cheating is an apparently advantageous violation of player assumptions
about the game. When those assumptions are satisfied, all apparently
advantageous methods are fair. When they are violated, no apparently
advantageous methods are fair. "Using exterior means to influence the
play of a game is not necessarily cheating. It is only cheating if it
violates the assumptions of other players *and* provides an advantage.
When a player expects that gaining levels in a game takes a long period
of time, he will call any method of gaining them rapidly "cheating" --
even if it is an intentional feature of the game. When he expects that
gaining levels is a rapid process, however, he will not think the
people gaining them slowly are cheating... because that is not an
apparently advantageous situation. It does not matter whether this
actually *is* an advantageous situation, only whether it *appears*
advantageous."
Sure. Cheating can be proven with evidence. To make it a more dangerous
activity for the players, the log level should be very high. Something
which is appearently not true for Neocron yet.
I feel you missed the point of that one by a longshot... What this means to me is:
While a player A may take advantage of an "exploit" they think nothing of it, while when player B uses it against player A, it is then offensive and therefor an exploit in in player A's eyes.
The quote summed up pretty much means this:
As long as a player views something as an exploit, it is an exploit... When they dont see it as one, it isnt. 1 act, viewed in 2 different ways by the player, when used for him, and when used against him.
Players are sabotaging themselves.
Dribble Joy
26-06-04, 05:20
The quote summed up pretty much means this:
As long as a player views something as an exploit, it is an exploit... When they dont see it as one, it isnt. 1 act, viewed in 2 different ways by the player, when used for him, and when used against him.
Players are sabotaging themselves.
In some respects yes, but it depends on the nature of 'exploits' and thier definition within a community.
In NC at least, an exploit is an activity which gives a player an 'unfair' advantage over another. Whether any given activity is an exploit (in NC) is up to the developers, NOT the players.
In some respects yes, but it depends on the nature of 'exploits' and thier definition within a community.
In NC at least, an exploit is an activity which gives a player an 'unfair' advantage over another. Whether any given activity is an exploit (in NC) is up to the developers, NOT the players.
Not true, people bitch these forums up and down-- you think they ignore everything? If someone views something as an exploit, and starts calling it that it will catch on... How long did people consider antishielding and tl25 sheltering an exploit?? The list is much longer, but that is the first that comes to mind. There are many things that have been closed/removed due to the stupidity and overreaction of the general public.
After so long, if the community continues to push and nag and moan, eventually the company/GM staff gives in
NCPD was open for a year and a half, it wasnt considered an exploit at the start of retail, only when people continued to bitch and whine was it actually labled and exploit by kk and closed.
Exploiting is a always a really tricky issue...
It's not at all divorced from the concept of a "powergamer" or "munchkin" in a Pen and Paper RPG (I GM a lot of PnP RPGS, I've been doing shadowrun for about 6 years now, and CP2020 a little less)
The real problem isn't with the player himself, it's with the way the player affects game balance (I'm speaking here of character building exploits and item exploits, not PvP ones)
once the balance is tipped to an exploiter, then other players have to either tip it back (often by cheating themselves) or they have to work around the balance issue.
In my experiance in PnP RPGs and in online forum-based ones, the main issue here is that you cannot stop exploiting (powergaming), you instead have to fix the balance issues it creates IMHO. I think Neocron does a great job of not letting items tip the balance (IE there is no rare, GM-spawn only +5 vorpal sword of everything obliterating that 2 people got a year and a half ago because they were the ones camping the tomb of ultimate evil and cool items when a GM decided to spawn the krug of be'lesh that drops it or something wazzy like that, which EQ is VERY prone to)
That's why in neocron cheaters aren't a big problem at the moment I think, there's no massive power imbalance. It's up to the devs to avoid mechanics that create those (which they do an great job at, look at all the fixes they've put in to defeat ever more cleaver cheaters) and the community to define them...
people know when there's a power imbalance (just look at the aforementioned huge amount of 'nerf' posts) that's the best way to identify an exploit. I mean there's something that may full well be an exploit that allows you to drop down under the floor in Tech Haven clan apartments, but it's not really an exploit because it has no unbalancing effect.
That's my 2 cents on the issue of what is and what isn't an exploit and how you should determine what's what.
It is Koster's collection actually. Lots of people were quoted. I just did a little commenting on his collection. Besides - I did a lot of disagreeing with the items in Koster's colletion. So it actually might help you reading the text before posting. ;)
I know it is Kosters collection. I've read all of Kosters material years ago. All you have done is put a short running commentry on it. It would of been better if you picked 1 or 2 points instead of trying to cover everything in three posts. Also saying "I agree" to comments is not really giving good commentry.
1. Multiple Paths of advancement are nice, but very hard to implement.
Epics, Missions, General monster fighting, Lomming, Op wars. The paths he is refering to can also relate to skills aquired, political standing in the faction and dealing with other players (You do not need XP for that). Neocron does have a number of advancement methods, although it may be lacking in XP generation ones.
MMORPGs usually have some kind of
end-point. The end-point is the point where a player can not advance
anymore. In Neocron this endpoint is not hidden but clearly visible -
as soon as you have reached the skill limit for your character class,
you are there.
Your character is not the game. So your capped? That is not the end of the game. You also have to factor in all parts of the game. Maps, monsters, items, quests and social interaction. As long as KK keep adding stuff every month or so that will keep people intrested then no end point will be visible to the player.
Not really applicable. Reakktor may have lost a lot of credibility by
the constant delay of the expansion and by having to admit it not being
a free download, eventually.
He is referring to the persistant coding/design that takes place in an MMORPG. So it is quite relevent. An MMORPG that does not have persistent coding dies.
If so, Neocron did it. It is definately possible to "collect stamps" in
the game and still be part of the PvP system and take part in the whole
rest of the game.
NC hasn't really generated a "Stamp collecting" skill set. Everything is Faction centric. To give an example in Ultima Online, "Baking bread". It had no real use . KK try to make each skill/item force interaction. Example recently, drug dealers (cheaper to deal with players).
The quality of roleplaying is inversely proportionate to the number of
people playing.
Not true. Roleplaying is first and foremost influenced by gameplay.
It is totally true. The only reason you haven't noticed it is due to the populations of NC. But how much roleplay is there on Saturn vs Pluto and match thier population.
Roleplaying cannot be enforced by gameplay without turning the game into a police state (Koster. sic).
The higher the fee, the better the roleplayers (and of course, the
smaller the playerbase).
Definately not true. Neocron is the best example. Many of the hardcore
This is actually very true. The real profitting factor for an MMORPG is to get a good balance of players (income) vs your bandwidth+server usage (costs). There is a sweet spot which will get you a profit.
Having more players != profit. To make the best profit is to keep the playerbase low with higer fee, or keep the playerbase high but keep them off the game. Again Ultima online is a good example for this. In UO you had housing that you had to refresh once every week to keep. People would not quit because it took so long to get the major buildings, but instead logged in to refresh and logged out again. It keep a customer with little to no bandwidth.
Since the story progresses so extremly slowly in Neocron, it can almost be said to be non-existing.
Again he is talking about static stories. The ongoing stories are not static. But everyone knows the story of the NEXT epic?
Players have higher expectations of the virtual world
Not true.
This is extremly true. Fights about Low level players getting ganked by higher levels is a fine example. Expecting people not to ninja ops is another, keeping the factions balanced to keep fighting fair is another.
It is very hard to attract players of different gaming styles after
the playerbase has been established.
Not true. The game could be tweaked towards more RP easily without
conflicting with the PvP community.
It is very true. A lot of people see NC as a PvP centric game. Even if they radically change this people will still think this. They couldn't change this totally without alienating thier current customerbase. Again LEs are a good example of this.
The ultimate goal of a virtual world is to create a place where people of all styles of play can contribute to the world in a manner that
makes the game more satisfying for everyone.
Not possible. Especially not in a game like Neocron which is so much
PvP orientated.
It is the ulitmate goal. It certainly is possible, but not there yet.
The new players who enter the world for the first time are the best
critics of it.
Not true. Many new players complain about things which can not be
changed and ask for features which are (next to) impossible to
implement.
No that is older players. New players will always be better critics as they see things as they are and don't compare every feature to thier "Beta days when everything was better".
The opinions of those who leave are the hardest to obtain,...
Not necessarily true. There will be (and are) always players who
really, really care about the game and make suggestions on how to
improve it
I am more likely to believe someone who has worked in the MMORPG industry then a players take on things. I can take a good guess that a lot of exiting game comments are along the lines of "Fuck u KK!". Which isn't very helpful.
A new player’s expectations of a virtual world are driven by his
expectations of single-player games.
Not true. Nobody will play Neocron (or any other MMORPG) like he/she
plays single-player games.
He is referring to new players to MMORPGs and this is very true. New players see themselves as the hero in the game and that good always wins and no one is better then them. It is one of the major factors that keeps a player in the game or leave to go play single player games again (after all who wants to play the bitch in the storyline?).
Team based multiplayer games go a long way to correcting this.
If there is proof of so called "griefplay",
punishement should be swift and severe.
He wasn't talking about the punishment, only that those factors will happen in your game so you should plan in advance.
Is it a game? It’s a SERVICE. Not a game. It’s a WORLD. Not a game. It’s a COMMUNITY. Not a game. Anyone who says, ‘it’s just a game’ is missing the point.
Not true. It is a game.
No it is not just a game. As he says your missing the point. "It's just a game" is generally used as an excuse to do things which the community considers questionable.
You will NEVER have a solid, unique identity for your problematic
players...
CD-keys are the key, literally. Keys with no logical system behind them can not be faked.
Read what he is saying. Sure CD keys cannot be faked but new ones can be bought, so it is certainly possible for banned players to get back in. Heck I know for a fact there are a few banned players back in the game.
The only way to combat this is to get them to
empathize more with other players.
No chance in combating it. It is just impossible. The really bad jerks
should get banned, that is it.
It certainly is possible, and KK have tried to somewhat. For example being red (by killing lots of people) hurts your character more. The player empathizes by realising the destruction of their own character.
Player’s don’t want ‘a story.’ They want ‘their story.’
Not true. They just want A story
This is very true. Again back to new players where people see themselves as the hero. Or if you track that to players in NC, the people who want "PPUs removed" as it stops them from making thier own story in the world because they are incapable of dealing with the situation.
What I found odd about your point there was you disagree then go to explain why you agree.
Darklock's First Law
Sure. Cheating can be proven with evidence.
He is referring to "Powergaming" vs "Cheating". For example, sitting inside objects (crates, behind GR's) is cheating, but a lot of players will see this as "Powergaming" and legal because the game allows it. Evidence is subjective to the player.
Very well written and articulated post. All good points as well that factor into the quality and longevity of an MMORPG.
There were a few things I didn't think were 100% accurate, but they were minor.
But one thing I see people post occasionally that I don't think is true at all by any standard is.....
By MMORPG standards......Neocron is surviving with a loyal following that likes the cyberpunk genre in a PC game and can't really adequately find it anywhere else. That's about it. Right now, except for a few indie games floating around out there (due to publisher woes), the only cyberpunk alternative to Neocron would probably be Anarchy Online, but Neocron really feels more cyberpunk than AO.
At last count, Everquest had over 400,000 paid accounts (with some subscribers having multiple accounts). With that type of customer base, EQ is "very strong", having upwards of 100,000 people online simultaneously at any given time due to players in various time zones. With less than 2000 people online (as far as I have seen recently), and some servers having less than 30 people online (from what I saw recently), Neocron is surviving. I hope the company uses advertising to its fullest potential to bring new life to Neocron when BDOY goes retail.
You are right. The player count is extremely small compared to other games. But the base is strong - it is not falling apart and there is no coming and going like in other games - the players are very loyal.
Well I'm no coder. I'm just the customer service whipping boy :)
he is one hell of a whipping boy.
I feel you missed the point of that one by a longshot... What this means to me is:
While a player A may take advantage of an "exploit" they think nothing of it, while when player B uses it against player A, it is then offensive and therefor an exploit in in player A's eyes.
The quote summed up pretty much means this:
As long as a player views something as an exploit, it is an exploit... When they dont see it as one, it isnt. 1 act, viewed in 2 different ways by the player, when used for him, and when used against him.
Players are sabotaging themselves.
I don't think I missed the point, I just did not answer to it directly. A good example for such an "exploit" is troop-carrier construction in NC. Some players view it as an exploit, since it is a very easy way to get a lot of money fast. Some people see it as an exploit, since it increases the amount of money in the game too fast, it is taking advantage of a flaw in the design. Others, usually the ones who build them, do not see it as such. The same is of course true for things like dropping turrets when stealthed and other mechanisms.
Cheating should be defined clearly and punsished accordingly. Sorry for not being clear enough.
macroing is widespread among players
o rly.
Exploiting is a always a really tricky issue...
It's not at all divorced from the concept of a "powergamer" or "munchkin" in a Pen and Paper RPG (I GM a lot of PnP RPGS, I've been doing shadowrun for about 6 years now, and CP2020 a little less)
The real problem isn't with the player himself, it's with the way the player affects game balance (I'm speaking here of character building exploits and item exploits, not PvP ones)
once the balance is tipped to an exploiter, then other players have to either tip it back (often by cheating themselves) or they have to work around the balance issue.
In my experiance in PnP RPGs and in online forum-based ones, the main issue here is that you cannot stop exploiting (powergaming), you instead have to fix the balance issues it creates IMHO. I think Neocron does a great job of not letting items tip the balance (IE there is no rare, GM-spawn only +5 vorpal sword of everything obliterating that 2 people got a year and a half ago because they were the ones camping the tomb of ultimate evil and cool items when a GM decided to spawn the krug of be'lesh that drops it or something wazzy like that, which EQ is VERY prone to)
That's why in neocron cheaters aren't a big problem at the moment I think, there's no massive power imbalance. It's up to the devs to avoid mechanics that create those (which they do an great job at, look at all the fixes they've put in to defeat ever more cleaver cheaters) and the community to define them...
people know when there's a power imbalance (just look at the aforementioned huge amount of 'nerf' posts) that's the best way to identify an exploit. I mean there's something that may full well be an exploit that allows you to drop down under the floor in Tech Haven clan apartments, but it's not really an exploit because it has no unbalancing effect.
That's my 2 cents on the issue of what is and what isn't an exploit and how you should determine what's what.
I think balance in NC is extraordinarily good. And it has to be, since it is PvP orientated. Of course there is some cheating and exploiting, but it very seldom endangers the game. Essentially even the item duping can be handled lightly (up to a point of course), since there are no items which are so rare that it makes a real impact. Even if cheating leads to one side winning, every item which is important for PvP can be replaced easily if dropped and there is always another day to fight.
, since there are no items which are so rare that it makes a real impact. Even if cheating leads to one side winning, every item which is important for PvP can be replaced easily if dropped and there is always another day to fight.
Ultimas, MC5 chips, Spirit mods, Rare drugs, Rare armor. NC probably has more rare stuff in it then other games as it is released for a short period then removed from the game. Kami chips for example.
But to say Duping is not a big deal? o_O It is a serious issue. Your basically causing database corruption. Over time you can destroy the gameplay only if your lucky. You can also corrupt the game itself.
While a nice post I have to disagree with your analysis one some points.
Regarding the multiple paths of advancement, I'm pretty sure what he refers
to is not how you level, but what you level. For example different classes or
skill trees, in neocron its completely open and you can just dot in your skills
where you want - also there is very little choice in how you set up your char,
once you have chosen your weapon its just a matter of calculating the
perfect setup. The milestones would be the different weapons or modules
you get to use once you get stats high enough to use them, they work
exceptionally well as milestones, altho the fact that you sometimes dont gain
anything from getting a better weapon due to too low weaponskill is a bit
detrimental here.
Modes of expression - the fact that armor does not show up on characters
and the PAs all look the same is a serious flaw here. Also note that neocron
does have amazingly low amounts of classes/races compared to other
MMORPGs. Some MMORPGs have up to a 100 different combinations which
actually all are significantly different.
The "do it everywhere" law is appicable to every game there is, and is
something that is important not to forget. If you can hack doors, you should
be able to hack all doors. If you can climb a hill, climb all hills. If you can
break through a fence, break through all fences. Etc etc, its a basic design
rule, and too massive violations makes a game stupid. Neocron has done "ok"
here I guess, this is also alot harder to accomplish in mmorpgs than in
traditional games.
The stamp collecting dilemma is a metaphor. What it means is that there are
alot of features appealing to different players and some features will act
detrimental to other parts of the overall design if implemented. Thus you
have to chose between features and be very careful not to have features
which creates playstyles that arent compatible with the games intentional
playstyles.
As for roleplaying, I dont believe either that roleplaying and the number of
players are somehow in relation. The first and foremost enemy to roleplay are
simple things - player names, talk about game mechanics, talk about alts. If
you can somehow reduce those problems you can create an atmosphere for
those that want to roleplay that doesnt get shattered everytime someone
walks by. Roleplayers in the sense of people who actually just hang around to
roleplay in a mmorpg will always be a very low percentage of the population
and for several reasons, and alot of people will find it annoying with extensive
or low-quality roleplaying. However, theres no reason not to create an
atmosphere that fosters roleplaying and lets everyone who doesnt roleplay
feel like they actually live in an alternate world, rather than just playing a
game. Im not sure if that made sense, I have a hangover.
Higher fees will usuallt result in older player base which could result in better
overall quality of the roleplaying. No direct relation however.
The storytelling part doesnt just refer to the overall storyline but to small
pieces like new quests and whatnot. Its a common conception in the
business that there is no way to create quests and advanced gameplay in a
mmorpg to keep everyone satisfied, thats why mmorpgs use an excessive
amount of grinds. This may be true, but boring grinds and watching progress
indicators is hardly the solution. When you create an interactive story like a
quest (run or mission) you have to realise that the first few players are the
only ones that are actually going to experience it like you want it, the rest
will just read a walkthrough and surf through it. The only way to avoid this is
to make the interactive stories more than just moving from point to point and
figuring out a puzzle, they have to be truelly interactive.
As for expectations, well, the average mmorpg player do expect all these
things, and when it doesnt shine through they complain - alot. I think anyone
that has worked at tech support for a mmorpg can attest to this fact.
Yes, economy is bad, and the faucet -> drain model is horrible and it hasnt
worked properly in any game so far. Lets hope that someone takes the dive
and creates a economy with a static amount of money in circuit. Not easy,
but it can be done. Im looking into creating such a system but its half game
design and half economics, and in the latter apartment I constantly need to
go fetch someone to explain it to me ;)
A job doesnt have to be repetitive or boring in a game. It can be more
something like holding a title or somesuch. Not to be confused with the fact
that some people thinks certain aspects of a game is "like a job". A job in a
mmorpg can be a extremely fun piece of gameplay.
Expanding a mmorpg - in the industry it has been assumed that an expansion
every 6 months is whats necesary to keep the player base steady, any
longer than that and it will dwindle. Look at neocron for example.
As for lambert - about the bored players, see the expansion part. Shortest
way to the cheese is very very applicable to neocron, it is in every little
thing we do. How we level, where we level, how we spec, how we farm tech
parts, how we travel (set position 1 to get to outzone station when it was a
30 sec timer anyone?) etc etc. This is something every mmorpg must take in
aspect, dont ever expect players to play it like you designed it just because
its enjoyable, they will take the easiest route you supply.
hanarra
2:There are alot more playstyles than RP and PvP. For example if the game
turned into everquest standing on a spot for a week at an end to get the
ultime weapon people would go apeshit, it doesnt work together with the fast
leveling and easy accesable and rather "even" pvp which neocron now offers.
Some people like farming for a week, personally I will never understand why.
3: New player doesnt necesarily mean new to mmorpgs. In MMORPGS,
especially once they go free trial, the first 10 gaming hours is what decides if
the game lives on or not. Getting feedback from what players experience in
those hours is vital.
Saving the world. Well, when there is an event which involves 400 mobs
comming crawling to attack the neocron gates everyone and his mother is
there, so apparently they like it. Now in neocron in particular those events
have been kinda braindead.
As for Baron and Achievement Oriented and Cumulative Character. Neocron
would be and example of the first, everquest of the latter and something like
DaoC would be a mix of the both. I do think baron is full of shit tho tbh.
Hate, or rather conflict, is a very strong engine. Giving someone a reason to
band up against someone else is a very good way to get people to stick
together. If managed properly its very very handy.
Glory and shame are also very strong engines in individuals. I think it was
in "Developing Online Games" by jessica mulligan and bridgette someting (ive
might have gotten the names wrong) that they discussed this to a great
length. Very good book if you are into the stuff.
As for Schubert’s Law of Player Expectations, sure, players will realise that
they are not playing a single player game - but that doesnt have anything to
do with it. They will still feel like they should get the biggest baddest gun,
and deserves to have it. Even if there are 10 other people camping the spot
for it. This causes friction between the players mostly due to that their
expectations wore broken and they feel wronged by, but they cant but
words on their feelings because no one has actually done anything wrong, its
their expectations that backlashes on them. There are several situations
where most people will experience this in any mmorpg, for example if they go
to a spot to level, and they realise some other team is already there and
wiping it clean faster than you ever could. This might not be a big problem if
there are other similar areas or if it only takes a small amount of time to
travel there but if you have made an effort or big plans around it - again the
expectations schubert talk about will piss you off.
Its not a game. Once people start to spend the amount of time and energy
leveling a character, getting items and whatnot, they develope alot of
feelings for it. If you as a developer dont respect the time people put in it
you will piss them off, royaly. There is no way that a mmorpg can be
compared to picking up your gamepad and bashing your friend in tekken for 5
mins. To the people who play these games the time they spend in them is
worth just as much as the time they spend doing other things in their life,
and as such their avatar and all that comes with it is their connection and
their reward for all this spent time. Sure, it is a game, but its also so much
more. When you as a developer run a mmorpg, you are not running a game,
you are running a community, many mmorpgs have failed because developers
hasnt fully realised the width of that.
As for banning, I think what he means is that even if an account is
permanently banned, which us usually the case with cheaters in mmorpgs.
They will be back sooner or later, you can not track them, it will cost more
than the damage they do, so you will have to find them again, and again. Of
course, they just might have stopped cheating, sometimes people do change,
or grow up.
I think what Hal Black and Hans Henrik Staerfeldt is getting at is that when
players can see certain reactions from their actions they will act in the way
that is the most benefical to their goals. If they want something changed,
but you have showed (not by stating it but by showing it through action)
that the only way they will get a change is by discuss the problem in a civil
manner, make a petition, and fill in form q-16, they will do it. If you have
shown that whoever shouts the loudest or requests nerfs gets the fix first,
guess what they will do.
Rickey is not talking about story as in backstory or storyline or anything like
that, he is talking about how a player plays and interacts with the
enviroment. Everyone wants to play the main lead in the film about them.
When you create a character in a mmorpg you have grand visions and if you
are a roleplayer you will envision this character doing great adventures, if
you are a PKer you will envision killing tons of people being badass, all these
playstyles and all players have that in common however, they want to be the
main character. Newsflash, everyone cant be the main character all the time,
some people can be it some of the time, and thats it. This isnt really a
problem in mmorpgs however since most people seem to realise this or take
this struggle with ease.
As for Darklock, here I think its important to realise that the community will
feel cheated if someone levels faster than the others, regardless of wether or
not the person actually cheated, the two things are usually not the
same, thats why you as a developer has to make the game as fair as
possible. This goes hand in hand with the "dominant feature" problem but we
dont have to get into that here. The same goes for bugs and how bugs are
percieved. Darklock isnt talking about actual cheats or bugs, but how players
percieve different kinds of problems in the game. As a developer its very
important not to create features that are percieved in this manner,
wether it is a bug/cheat or not is a different discussion.
Now, Im a tad hung over so if Im unclear somewhere please feel free to ask
wtf im getting at, I tend to spin off in weird directions at times.
**edit: and archeus stop making posts I agree with, its bad for my karma.
If your looking for a good read on the industry as a whole I would suggest Building Online Worlds (http://www.amazon.ca/exec/obidos/ASIN/1592730000/qid=1088208133/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/701-0561812-3932363) by Jessica Mulligan. Quite the interesting read and would give you some insight on stuff such as why we use MYSQL over MSSQL/Oracle.
I hadnt seen this post when I did mine, this is the bible if you want to
develop online games. I think I have tried to promote this book on half a
dozen different occations over the last 6 months and Ill continue to do so
until everyone here is educated ;)
QuantumDelta
26-06-04, 13:34
It's a nice thread.
The material for discussion is nice too.
I don't agree with probably 50% of what you drew as conclusions from the stimulus however.
You would do better to not look at things from such a personal view, and maybe, more from the impartial view.
A LOT of what you said was merely because it made sense for YOU PERSONALLY to say it, whether it was true for the majority of the rest of the community or not.
--
Please, don't generalise on behalf of other people, you'll please some, get hung by others.
And people like me will laugh.
I know it is Kosters collection. I've read all of Kosters material years ago. All you have done is put a short running commentry on it. It would of been better if you picked 1 or 2 points instead of trying to cover everything in three posts. Also saying "I agree" to comments is not really giving good commentry.
I never said I was doing something else. And I did not take all points, as you might have noticed, having read it all before.
Epics, Missions, General monster fighting, Lomming, Op wars. The paths he is refering to can also relate to skills aquired, political standing in the faction and dealing with other players (You do not need XP for that). Neocron does have a number of advancement methods, although it may be lacking in XP generation ones.
Sure, it depends on how you define "advancing". I was talking about "advancing" in the sense of "getting XP to advance to the next level". Neocron offers only extremely limited possibilities here. Social interaction does not need XP of course, I woud never argue with that. But even epics and missions are pretty limited.
Your character is not the game. So your capped? That is not the end of the game. You also have to factor in all parts of the game. Maps, monsters, items, quests and social interaction. As long as KK keep adding stuff every month or so that will keep people intrested then no end point will be visible to the player.
I did not say being capped means the end of the game, nor did the author mean it. Almost every game has a situation where you can not advance your character anymore in the sense of reaching a higher level. That is some kind of end-point, no matter what. It not being the end of the game in the sense of having it played through by then is pretty obvious.
He is referring to the persistant coding/design that takes place in an MMORPG. So it is quite relevent. An MMORPG that does not have persistent coding dies.
I did not say it was not relevant, I said it is not really applicable. This is due to the fact that the game does not really seem to advance - codewise (which is of course not necessarily visible to me - I just see what I get).
NC hasn't really generated a "Stamp collecting" skill set. Everything is Faction centric. To give an example in Ultima Online, "Baking bread". It had no real use . KK try to make each skill/item force interaction. Example recently, drug dealers (cheaper to deal with players).
Still, it is very possible - it is possible to have a constructor who does his own researching and repairing. The skill set in NC in general is very interaction friendly, indeed.
It is totally true. The only reason you haven't noticed it is due to the populations of NC. But how much roleplay is there on Saturn vs Pluto and match thier population.
Roleplaying cannot be enforced by gameplay without turning the game into a police state (Koster. sic).
I was not necessarily talking about Neocron. And even if I viewed Neocron by itself, I still would hold up my point. Roleplay in Neocron is not happered by player numbers but by what the game offers and what people except from the game. And I was not talking about enforcing anything, I was talking about offering the possibility to roleplay by introducing roleplayer friendly features.
This is actually very true. The real profitting factor for an MMORPG is to get a good balance of players (income) vs your bandwidth+server usage (costs). There is a sweet spot which will get you a profit.
Having more players != profit. To make the best profit is to keep the playerbase low with higer fee, or keep the playerbase high but keep them off the game. Again Ultima online is a good example for this. In UO you had housing that you had to refresh once every week to keep. People would not quit because it took so long to get the major buildings, but instead logged in to refresh and logged out again. It keep a customer with little to no bandwidth.
Which is absolutely beside my point. I was argueing that higher fees do not mean better roleplaying. I was not talking about the profits.
Again he is talking about static stories. The ongoing stories are not static. But everyone knows the story of the NEXT epic?
Yes.... and...?
This is extremly true. Fights about Low level players getting ganked by higher levels is a fine example. Expecting people not to ninja ops is another, keeping the factions balanced to keep fighting fair is another.
Players have higher expectations concering their abilities. right. That is why they play a/the game. But no matter what kind of game I play - I much more expect to be ganged in a game than in real-life. And people who start Neocron know what kind of game they are going to get - PvP-wise, as you mentioned below - so they know they can and will be killed as soon as their LE is out.
It is very true. A lot of people see NC as a PvP centric game. Even if they radically change this people will still think this. They couldn't change this totally without alienating thier current customerbase. Again LEs are a good example of this.
I was not talking about alienating the existing playerbase or changing the whole setup. I was talking about ADDING to the existing setup. This might - over time - shift the playerbase. I did not say "take out all the guns and make NC a safezone" - I was saying "introduce roleplaying items to make the game more attractive for roleplayers, which does not even mean having to touch anything concerning the PvP players".
It is the ulitmate goal. It certainly is possible, but not there yet.
No - like roleplaying you can not enforce emphathy.
No that is older players. New players will always be better critics as they see things as they are and don't compare every feature to thier "Beta days when everything was better".
Go through the forums and have a look at what senior players post. They are concerned about balance, if they ask for the introduction of new features they keep in mind what has been done before and thus is possible at all. New players ask for überitems, ask for features which are technically impossible to introduce and have no idea of balance since they do not have the experience of having played other characters, too. New players do NOT see things as they are, since they just have not seen enough of the existing features, they have no idea of the true impacts of changing them. Complaining about the beta days is not the point.
I am more likely to believe someone who has worked in the MMORPG industry then a players take on things. I can take a good guess that a lot of exiting game comments are along the lines of "Fuck u KK!". Which isn't very helpful.
So? Go read the forums then. I can not say anything about the English ones, but in the German ones you have actual critique. Some games have a questionaire for you to fill out if you quit. Which is generally a good idea, but they do not really give you the chance to explain why you quit, just some multiple-choice stuff. Players who are still there and critizise are players a developer might be able to keep in the game. So why not listen to them?
He is referring to new players to MMORPGs and this is very true. New players see themselves as the hero in the game and that good always wins and no one is better then them. It is one of the major factors that keeps a player in the game or leave to go play single player games again (after all who wants to play the bitch in the storyline?).
Team based multiplayer games go a long way to correcting this.
These new players will either drop out and go back to their singleplayer games very soon or they will have to acknowledge that it just is not true - and that very soon, too.
He wasn't talking about the punishment, only that those factors will happen in your game so you should plan in advance.
But I was, since I see it flawed in Neocron.
No it is not just a game. As he says your missing the point. "It's just a game" is generally used as an excuse to do things which the community considers questionable.
I do not think I am missing the point. It just being a game is suppossed to be acknowledged by the players and they should behave accordingly. People who cross the line are addicts and should be treated. If you have sleepless nights because you do not know if you dropped your 4 slotted Executioner last time you died - somebody should remind you it is just a game then.
I would like to have an example of "it is just a game" being used as an excuse to "do things which the community considers questionable".
Read what he is saying. Sure CD keys cannot be faked but new ones can be bought, so it is certainly possible for banned players to get back in. Heck I know for a fact there are a few banned players back in the game.
Read what I was saying. I explicitly wrote about the possibility of buying game keys, did I not? I was only pointing towards a possibility to decrease faking.
It certainly is possible, and KK have tried to somewhat. For example being red (by killing lots of people) hurts your character more. The player empathizes by realising the destruction of their own character.
The player empathizes with himself/herself, not another player. There is no way he/she will empathize with his enemy - on the contrary, it was said enemy who got you red in the first place.
This is very true. Again back to new players where people see themselves as the hero. Or if you track that to players in NC, the people who want "PPUs removed" as it stops them from making thier own story in the world because they are incapable of dealing with the situation.
No senior player would ask for the removal of the PPU, proving my point above. People will drop the "I am the hero" very, very soon, since they will realize how dependent they are on other people. Go, ask the players if they like the story or if it is not enough of "their" story.
What I found odd about your point there was you disagree then go to explain why you agree.
I was only partly :) I was agreeing concerning the roleplaying, but not the overall story of the game.
He is referring to "Powergaming" vs "Cheating". For example, sitting inside objects (crates, behind GR's) is cheating, but a lot of players will see this as "Powergaming" and legal because the game allows it. Evidence is subjective to the player.
As I said somewhere else - clear rules have to define what is considered cheating and what not. A good example was the early problem of droping turrets in the underground. It was officially declared cheating even though it was possible, clearing up the situation. Clear statements by the developer are the key. Then you have clear evidence.
Ultimas, MC5 chips, Spirit mods, Rare drugs, Rare armor. NC probably has more rare stuff in it then other games as it is released for a short period then removed from the game. Kami chips for example.
But to say Duping is not a big deal? o_O It is a serious issue. Your basically causing database corruption. Over time you can destroy the gameplay only if your lucky. You can also corrupt the game itself.
Still, the impact is minimal. It does not matter if there are 50 more Spirit mods or 100 more Dimension Splitters. It does unbalance the price, but not the gameplay. Even if a single clan has all the above duped, it will not help them much, since the items by themselves are just not powerfull enough to unbalance the game. A good example are rare drugs. Having researched Tigerblood when it was still possible, a player might have thousands of them. So? It does not help him/her at all. If things get out of hand, the items are wiped, as has been done before.
mazzaker reading your first post and your latest reply to archeus it feels like
you dont understand that 95% of these actions and reactions are
subconscious in the players psycology and many of the words used discribing
these states is part of the lingo usually discribing gaming psycology and
doesnt literally mean what they would in other contexts. For example its not
about conscious expectations, or consciously feeling that you are the main
character of your story, the same goes for the theories about glory and
shame.
Magic Sausage
26-06-04, 17:08
Wow man.. you really put alot of thought into this... I am throwing 5 stars on it and hope that it gets the attention it deserves.
While a nice post I have to disagree with your analysis one some points.
Regarding the multiple paths of advancement, I'm pretty sure what he refers
to is not how you level, but what you level. For example different classes or
skill trees, in neocron its completely open and you can just dot in your skills
where you want - also there is very little choice in how you set up your char,
once you have chosen your weapon its just a matter of calculating the
perfect setup. The milestones would be the different weapons or modules
you get to use once you get stats high enough to use them, they work
exceptionally well as milestones, altho the fact that you sometimes dont gain
anything from getting a better weapon due to too low weaponskill is a bit
detrimental here.
I do not think we disagree here. :)
Modes of expression - the fact that armor does not show up on characters
and the PAs all look the same is a serious flaw here. Also note that neocron
does have amazingly low amounts of classes/races compared to other
MMORPGs. Some MMORPGs have up to a 100 different combinations which
actually all are significantly different.
I very much agree - I only said that Neocron is doing fine for what it wants - or what its developers want it to do/be.
The "do it everywhere" law is appicable to every game there is, and is
something that is important not to forget. If you can hack doors, you should
be able to hack all doors. If you can climb a hill, climb all hills. If you can
break through a fence, break through all fences. Etc etc, its a basic design
rule, and too massive violations makes a game stupid. Neocron has done "ok"
here I guess, this is also alot harder to accomplish in mmorpgs than in
traditional games.
I agree. It is rather unfortuante how these "little" things can annoy players. Doors that can not be opened at all suck - in every game.
The stamp collecting dilemma is a metaphor. What it means is that there are
alot of features appealing to different players and some features will act
detrimental to other parts of the overall design if implemented. Thus you
have to chose between features and be very careful not to have features
which creates playstyles that arent compatible with the games intentional
playstyles.
[Quote]
Which in my opinion Neocron solved pretty nicely.
[quote]
As for roleplaying, I dont believe either that roleplaying and the number of
players are somehow in relation. The first and foremost enemy to roleplay are
simple things - player names, talk about game mechanics, talk about alts. If
you can somehow reduce those problems you can create an atmosphere for
those that want to roleplay that doesnt get shattered everytime someone
walks by. Roleplayers in the sense of people who actually just hang around to
roleplay in a mmorpg will always be a very low percentage of the population
and for several reasons, and alot of people will find it annoying with extensive
or low-quality roleplaying. However, theres no reason not to create an
atmosphere that fosters roleplaying and lets everyone who doesnt roleplay
feel like they actually live in an alternate world, rather than just playing a
game. Im not sure if that made sense, I have a hangover.
It does and I totally agree.
Higher fees will usuallt result in older player base which could result in better
overall quality of the roleplaying. No direct relation however.
I do not think so. It does not really matter to the kids if their parents pay 10€/month or 20€. I dare say the number of players aged 16 to The-ones-not-earning-their-own-money-yet would drop out.
The storytelling part doesnt just refer to the overall storyline but to small
pieces like new quests and whatnot. Its a common conception in the
business that there is no way to create quests and advanced gameplay in a
mmorpg to keep everyone satisfied, thats why mmorpgs use an excessive
amount of grinds. This may be true, but boring grinds and watching progress
indicators is hardly the solution. When you create an interactive story like a
quest (run or mission) you have to realise that the first few players are the
only ones that are actually going to experience it like you want it, the rest
will just read a walkthrough and surf through it. The only way to avoid this is
to make the interactive stories more than just moving from point to point and
figuring out a puzzle, they have to be truelly interactive.
I think the only solution would be payed GMs doing ingame-story-stuff, on-the-fly-Pen&Paper-style RP offerings. Quite complicated to implement though.
As for expectations, well, the average mmorpg player do expect all these
things, and when it doesnt shine through they complain - alot. I think anyone
that has worked at tech support for a mmorpg can attest to this fact.
I think a lot of players just want *some* advancement. Rather some than none at all, which is in fact the current situation with Neocron.
Yes, economy is bad, and the faucet -> drain model is horrible and it hasnt
worked properly in any game so far. Lets hope that someone takes the dive
and creates a economy with a static amount of money in circuit. Not easy,
but it can be done. Im looking into creating such a system but its half game
design and half economics, and in the latter apartment I constantly need to
go fetch someone to explain it to me ;)
To create the perfect system you probably need a least some kind of degree in economics... ;)
The faucet->drain model works okayish, if the faucet and the drain are acutally connected and constantly monitored.
A job doesnt have to be repetitive or boring in a game. It can be more
something like holding a title or somesuch. Not to be confused with the fact
that some people thinks certain aspects of a game is "like a job". A job in a
mmorpg can be a extremely fun piece of gameplay.
I will never, ever become a miner again, like in UO. Never. What I meant are the extremely boring and repetitive actions - much like a factory job - or rather a manufacture - like research and construction in Neocron.
Expanding a mmorpg - in the industry it has been assumed that an expansion
every 6 months is whats necesary to keep the player base steady, any
longer than that and it will dwindle. Look at neocron for example.
I do not think this is applicable to Neocron in general. A lot of the Neocron player base is not the typical MMORPG playerbase but much nearer to the shooter-playerbase. And they tend to stay with their game a lot longer - even without new content.
As for lambert - about the bored players, see the expansion part. Shortest
way to the cheese is very very applicable to neocron, it is in every little
thing we do. How we level, where we level, how we spec, how we farm tech
parts, how we travel (set position 1 to get to outzone station when it was a
30 sec timer anyone?) etc etc. This is something every mmorpg must take in
aspect, dont ever expect players to play it like you designed it just because
its enjoyable, they will take the easiest route you supply.
Sure. :)
hanarra
3: New player doesnt necesarily mean new to mmorpgs. In MMORPGS,
especially once they go free trial, the first 10 gaming hours is what decides if
the game lives on or not. Getting feedback from what players experience in
those hours is vital.
Very nice point. The first ten hours of AO almost made me drop out - they were really, really bad. As were the first few hours of Neocron (that was before there was the MC5) - I just died the whole time because I had no idea the sewers I went to were just to tough for me.
Now, Im a tad hung over so if Im unclear somewhere please feel free to ask
wtf im getting at, I tend to spin off in weird directions at times.
**edit: and archeus stop making posts I agree with, its bad for my karma.
Thank you very much for your post, indeed. :)
You would do better to not look at things from such a personal view, and maybe, more from the impartial view.
A LOT of what you said was merely because it made sense for YOU PERSONALLY to say it, whether it was true for the majority of the rest of the community or not.
--
Please, don't generalise on behalf of other people, you'll please some, get hung by others.
And people like me will laugh.
Of course it is my interpretation. That is why I posted it - to get a good beating - honest, fair critique. I can not think about everything and view every angle. That is why I want your input and opinon. Laughing will not help very much, though.
mazzaker reading your first post and your latest reply to archeus it feels like
you dont understand that 95% of these actions and reactions are
subconscious in the players psycology and many of the words used discribing
these states is part of the lingo usually discribing gaming psycology and
doesnt literally mean what they would in other contexts. For example its not
about conscious expectations, or consciously feeling that you are the main
character of your story, the same goes for the theories about glory and
shame.
Of course I do not expect players to enter the game and say "Oh, well, this is a MMORPG, I can not be the number one hero here, all the time." But they will learn it over time - just like in the real world.
As far as the psychology goes - perhaps I do overestimate the ability of people to take an outside view of themselves.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.3 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.