View Full Version : A Balance to Monks maybe?
hi,
Monks have been overpowered for ages. a ppu + apu team can own almost everything.
APU monks can easily aim and hit 99% of the times since they have no reticle. like a drone. but monks do insane damage and with a ppu by them they can hardly die.
Monks can also hit while hiding. like in the chaos caves or by OP entrances in which they can snipe turrets while they outside the OP without the turret being able to hit em.
so do you think if monks were foced to play in only first person view would help that and subsitute for a reticle ?
please discuss, am sure that all monks would hate it. even myself. but that would be an easy way to balance monks without majorly nerfing them like what KK did all the time.
I only play my monkeys in 1st person so it wouldn't affect me at all.
hi,
Monks have been overpowered for ages. a ppu + apu team can own almost everything.
APU monks can easily aim and hit 99% of the times since they have no reticle. like a drone. but monks do insane damage and with a ppu by them they can hardly die.
Monks can also hit while hiding. like in the chaos caves or by OP entrances in which they can snipe turrets while they outside the OP without the turret being able to hit em.
so do you think if monks were foced to play in only first person view would help that and subsitute for a reticle ?
please discuss, am sure that all monks would hate it. even myself. but that would be an easy way to balance monks without majorly nerfing them like what KK did all the time.
No I think this idea is not a hmmmm good one.
I play all my chars in both mode depending on where I am and what i am doing. 3rd person is good for hunting as it tells you where you getting hit from. Where as the 3rd person view is bugged barreling ..... so you are forced to play that in first person (Also bob in buildings no good)
3rd person benifits all classes by allowing them to look round corners, why s it monks cannot do this now ? You go to an op, pop into 3rd person view to wtch for turrets ... no turrets you go to gogo, turrets you either create a path or go away....
I think bad idea ....
As i was stating in my target box thread . . I think monk's reticle should bob around side to side and up and down somewhat . . . Sorta like sniper views in some games. The more psi use and handling (er i think handling needs to be looked at as I believe its raised by dmg also) determines how much of a bobbing reticule you get.
(i think drones should get the same treatment on this reticle)
I've always found I can runcast better in 1st person. I only use 3rd person when hunting mobs so I can see better.
Yes an APU + PPU team is good. Of course it is, the highest defence, teamed with the highest offence. What do you expect?
As i was stating in my target box thread . . I think monk's reticle should bob around side to side and up and down somewhat . . . Sorta like sniper views in some games. The more psi use and handling (er i think handling needs to be looked at as I believe its raised by dmg also) determines how much of a bobbing reticule you get.
(i think drones should get the same treatment on this reticle)
Though the difference between monks and other chars, is that if monks lose their target they stop firing and fizzle, which causes a delay. Other chars can carry on firing so once they re-aquire their target they're damaging straight away. If monks ability to aim was reduced, then the class just wouldn't work.
{MD}GeistDamnit
23-06-04, 09:44
I only play my monkeys in 1st person so it wouldn't affect me at all.
ditto, 3p for monks sux anyway. go ahead and remove it for all I care :D
Dribble Joy
23-06-04, 10:18
The thing is that the point and click aiming for monks is fine at close ranges, the other classes are almost the same, and once a lock is gained, it IS point and click.
The problem comes at longer ranges. A pistoler, rifler and heavy user has to take time and effort to get a decent lock, whereas an apu can aim as quickly.
Bring a recticle beyond a cirtain range perhaps. Not sure.
That or take apu to pistol range.
Besides this won't 'balance' monks. It just bodges thier performance, without actually doing anything about the problems that surround them.
APUs are actually balanced pretty much, it is the overriding effects that a PPU has upon them that is the problem. *cough*self-cast shields*cough*
The thing is that the point and click aiming for monks is fine at close ranges, the other classes are almost the same, and once a lock is gained, it IS point and click.
The problem comes at longer ranges. A pistoler, rifler and heavy user has to take time and effort to get a decent lock, whereas an apu can aim as quickly.
Bring a recticle beyond a cirtain range perhaps. Not sure.
That or take apu to pistol range.
Well again we could do the target circle moving around like in some sniper games . .. but at up close it wouldnt' really move noticlable and far away it would bob around just a bit till you've held it on mark long enough. I don't know . .just at least something different than using a gun's aiming reticle. I think it should represent concentration rather than a closing gun reticle
Dribble Joy
23-06-04, 10:41
I agree, monk 'aiming' is a 'problem' and needs to be addressed at some point somehow. However this will not balance monks as the thread suggests.
The problem is that the PPU can give the higgest defence to the APU constantly, while staying invincible himself. The result is a unkillable APU with a star wars deathstar cannon, with a super impenetrable shield, projected by a emitter with an completely invincible shield. That would suck for the rebels wouldn't it lol in return of the jedi if they cannot blow up the moon.
That said whats so hard of adding a reticle to monk spells? It make sense for the monks to focus (depending on psi use), what DJ said is very true, for pistol, and cannon users its point and click as well in close range, but the problem is beyond a few metres cannons, pistols and rifles immedietely get the reticle disadvatage while monks still point and click
I also happen to think that the 3rd person ruins the game, and makes pvp incredibly easy, aiming a cannon or rifle in first person is difficult, anybody can hit someone in third person because you got such a large degree or flexibility, in reality you can't see to the side, and quickly flip back and forth with the gun.
{MD}GeistDamnit
23-06-04, 11:08
If monks ever get an aiming recticle I'm gone, I hate that thing, if anything they should make all guns like monks and drones. I dont wanna hear no crap about "skill" either, all the people that think they are l33t or better than others cause they can keep a recticle closed longer, I will own them at CS or UT2003/4 period. There aint no stinking recticle there to brag about niether.
Lucid Dream
23-06-04, 11:13
Heh, i got an idea from this thread, at 350+ meters, a sniper rifle should have no reticle =))
KK already added a balance - the spirit mod and cloneable spirit ammo.
so do you think if monks were foced to play in only first person view would help that and subsitute for a reticle ?
I completely agree with you, although I believe all classes should be forced into combat with first person view.
3rd person view should be allowed, however weapons and spells should not fire; a similar effect to the one that takes place if you alter the camera angle through the /set_ command.
SPIKE (pluto)
23-06-04, 11:48
yeah leave monks to 1st person, and while you're at it, lets do the same to tanks and give spies rare cannons :rolleyes:
Drac...
I know your speaking from knowledge as you were part of one of the best APU/PPU teams on my server.
But I can't fathom why you feel that the Monk class needs to be changed.
I personally think that a PPU/Tank Combo is far greater now than the old APU/PPU team in PvP.
With regard to the various advantages of being an APU with regard to click casting with no reticle and using your surroundings to your advantage, I would suggest that this was a plus for a class that has many downsides.
PvP atm is fun again imo. Peeple have started to play different classes again and that was what made PvP fun initially.
The reason why so many 'balance' (fuck me i hate that word) threads get started is because people start playing a certain class like a craze.
First we had Tanks...
Then Hybrids...
Then PPU/APUs...
Then PEs...
You'll notice, historically, that there were threads regarding these classes to either change or nerf them as they became popular.
I just don't see any need for change atm, because I get a decent fight from any class playing any other class.
And poor PPUs need a break atm. There has never been so many ways to take one down... they are now the hunted imo.
Monks are fine the way they are. Runcasting and keeping track of your target is hard enough, and just as has already been stated here, missing your target causes a terrible delay, recasting takes longer than a normal cast.
No, first/third person should be either optional for everyone or either one or the other, not class-specific.
v[ortice']
First we had Tanks...
Then Hybrids...
Then PPU/APUs...
Then PEs...
PEs? Sorry, I'm not trying to get defensive here but PEs were never overpowered. They had stealth and people abused it to never die, but stealth whores never killed anyone either... I know you're talking about crying for nerf and stuff, but PEs didn't deserve it. Now they're just a worse tank. :(
Anyway.. It sucks when you miss as a monk, because although you should cast more than once a second, if you fizzle you have to wait like 2 seconds before you can shoot again. :(
Edit: oops, forgot the point of the topic. No, do not make monks restricted to first person unless everyone is.
Original monk
23-06-04, 12:08
why restrict monks again ??
monks in 1st person ?
its: everyone in 1st person or no-one in 1st person: but not only monks in 1st person
all these annoying little rules yust to make the life of a monk harder and to make the class less attractive :/
well, ya can make monks 1st person, and while where at it i can certainly think of more annoying ways to make life hard for other cool classes :)
-then ya have to give PE's 10% synaptic after casting a shelter
-then ya let a droner die when he's drone dies
-decrease the ROF on every melleeweapon by -30
-make an executioner tl 122 and make it so the damage increases when shot from a distance (like redeemer)
-make the reload on every rifle last 5 seconds, same as with HC weapons
-let genrepping give 28 synaptic to spy's in general
-give tanks in general -20 athletics when there foreign buffed
-or even better: make spells monk only, yes this includes tl3 heal and deflector ...
ffcourse im kidding here, but i think its better to stop trying to make it more annoying (not harder, yust annoying) to play a certain class, we allready have nerfs enough in general :/
just give them a god damn reticle foo
KK already added a balance - the spirit mod and cloneable spirit ammo.
Erm... something that rare cannot be considered a balance.
Imo, APUs are fine, balanced great. :)
PPUs on the other hand.... :mad:
voted no, but they could certainly make it so that line-of-sight is required ala normal projectile weapons. You know how with, for example, a speedgun, if there's a rock between your target and you then the bullets bounce off the rock; Make it the same for spells.
Monks use PSI ...so nothing passes from you to the mob / player. He hurst you mentally ... (with the head ... and no head butting either) ...
Range on almost every weapon is futher than a monks anyways ......
A rectangle for apu's maby (like the one shadow dancer I belive proposed a while back), but a sniper sway of the crosshair naaaah. And dont touch the ppu aiming mmkay.
Stop bitching about ppu/apu combo if a tank/ppu combo isnt better than it's just as good. Not as high dmg output fast, but overtime they arnt long from it plus they can take 2x atleast the pounding.
only 1'st person, baah well If it was introduced I will cope with it but it will annoy me ALOT.
edit..
PEs? Sorry, I'm not trying to get defensive here but PEs were never overpowered. They had stealth and people abused it to never die, but stealth whores never killed anyone either... I know you're talking about crying for nerf and stuff, but PEs didn't deserve it. Now they're just a worse tank
Sorry mate I think you misunderstood the context of my reply.
At no point did I refer to PEs as overpowered.
All I said was that they became 'the popular class' to play and like with all the others I mentioned.
The reason why these classes became so strong in their times was because so many people put time and effort into trying to have the best setup or being the best on their server that the classes were improved above what people expected to be their limitations.
Unfortunately that means that yes PEs were overpowered for a time, and subsequent changes were made like with all the others.
At one point on Uranus it was impossible to beat a PE with any other class. Now if there isn't a problem there...?? They ********** tanks like they were APUS unbuffed :(
The point I was trying to make is that people are now playing all of the classes and excelling in their individual strengths. The problems we've faced in the past have usually stemmed from one class being overbearingly stronger than the rest. ATM I have to say that things have become more diverse than uniform with regard to how people will fight each other. Many new and wonderful sub-classes are appearing all over such as H-C PEs, the return of the Hybrid, Sniper PEs, Pistol Spys... all very much maligned in the past but now finding their own niches within Neocron.
I can't think of a reason why we need to change any of the classes in this climate. The game is stronger through diversity.
just give them a god damn reticle foo
Thats not balance.
If every class couldn't fire for a second or two if they lost lock, then yeah, that would be fair, but monks STOP firing if they lose their target. Other classes don't.
Lose your target and wait 2 seconds to start firing again, then another second to get the first shot off. Against someone with a speedgun or libby, lose your target once and your dead.
Just make ALL spells require a line of sight to hit. Like guns.
Just make ALL spells require a line of sight to hit. Like guns.
Agreed.
I don't think PEs were ever overpowered, because they always sucked in teams, but the situation is worse now. I have a HC PE and loves it, but I can only beat a half decent PE, spy or monk with my cannon, the whole reason is I feel that even pistol or rifle I am subpar to the cannon or sword, so why not use cannons on this character and I can use the points for other things to make my character cool.
The fact that I can repair, poke, research and construct drugs, recycle, hack and drive vehicles, does not change the fact that I can log an alt in 10 seconds, and do the same things much better.
Lucid Dream
23-06-04, 23:54
I really dont see how anyone can have any problem with adding a LoS restriction to PSI.. i mean, come on, either the current system makes it so a monk can hit someone else in pvp, when they cant be hit, or it makes it so a monk can exploit in pvm. There is no valid gameplay reason not to require LoS.
I really dont see how anyone can have any problem with adding a LoS restriction to PSI.. i mean, come on, either the current system makes it so a monk can hit someone else in pvp, when they cant be hit, or it makes it so a monk can exploit in pvm. There is no valid gameplay reason not to require LoS. i see np with this, of course barrels should be exception since they are fired at the ground(or ceiling if you want a laugh)
ROFL what you mean they are almost unkillable jail have you see what CS does to apu 1 ppu 1 apu vs 1 tank and 1 DECENT ppu can kill apu team
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