View Full Version : Nerf Specialisation - Bring back item drop: A comprimise for DoY
Considering that DoY brings hacknet for the *real* hackers, I think it would be a good idea if belts required 15 Hacking to, erm hack! Check out the rest of my thread first though.
Making it usefull to have a little of every skill, in my opinion, kicks specialisation in the bollocks. Recycle and VHC are a perfect examples you don't need to put *all* your points into it, and can opt for just a few.
The small hack requirement of 15 would be a bash at specialisation, as well as something that prevents items from vanishing. It would practically be item drop like it used to be, and anyone can have access to the loot.
For those who joined recently, it used to be the case that you dropped an item on the ground with no quickbelt. Those days where kinda fun, and are dearly missed by many. However the most fustrating thing was when the item just vanished before your eyes, and nobody, not even the warbot that killed you or your team mate, got the item.
This would be a change that would occur when DoY comes. Hackers will get there beautifull Hacknet, and things will be merry once again!
Three cheers for Benjie! Hip hip...
Horay!
tomparadox
20-06-04, 03:34
nah, then there would be no use for belts exept to hold the item there for some dude to come hack it...
if your PKd youd have almost no hope of geting your item back, wich is stupid because say you drop a gun, or for a ppu a 5 sloted spell... you have no chance of geting it back, then youd half to make another one... belts reqs are high so that the dude that droped the stuff can maby have a chance at geting it back, and so that some random tank even coud come and take it...
inother words... No one will get there belt back if this happens, because im sure that 99.9% of the NC population woud take the 15/20 min( 15 for 15 hack/20 for 20 hack to be on the safe side ) to be able to hack belts...
i dont think we should have tanks runing around PKing then hacking belts takeing the loot and selling it on trade, unless there looting a mob...
Psycho Killa
20-06-04, 03:35
Yes I hate the current drop system. Aside from people stuffing there weapons right before they died the old system was a MILLION times better.
Ever since that change I have not enjoyed neocron nearly as much and that is no exageration or lie. Nothing like the excitement of knowing that either you our your enemy maybe dropping your rare. Nothing like picking up a fresh cs off of a tank I tell you.
AND SAFE SLOT HAS TO GO!
if your PKd youd have almost no hope of geting your item back
No crap losing an item is part of the penalty of death. Other then losin an item what penalties do we suffer aside from a couple minutes wait?
No crap losing an item is part of the penalty of death. Other then losin an item what penalties do we suffer aside from a couple minutes wait?
Exactly. Neocron has carebear death as it is. Realisticly you should loose everything your carrying when you die. That would fix the economy quick! :p
Besides the belt would still be needed to hold your item and stop it from vanishing, plus making a few points of hacking usefull is a step in the right direction.
Next KK could make it so you can poke imps in with lower skill, but if you do the imps couyld fall out at any time from 5 minuits to an half an hour. But it wouldn't work for poking, just self implanting. That would be awesome. And if you could use a weapon without reaching the requirements, but ROF, Damage, Range etc was totally C.R.A.P! Like 1 shot every 5 seconds on a 1 shot a second weapon, and @ 1/100th of the damage. Not including rares I guess. Hehe, thats my dream of anti specialisation.
Anyway, back on topic.
Exactly. Neocron has carebear death as it is. Realisticly you should loose everything your carrying when you die. That would fix the economy quick! :p
Besides the belt would still be needed to hold your item and stop it from vanishing, plus making a few points of hacking usefull is a step in the right direction.
lol Yeah lets loose all u carry instantly u die! PPU loose all his stuff in a sec, PE drop the termis, Spys the Spirit SH's! Woot that will make ppl happy yeah i can feel it!
Lets all just use store bought items cuz well who care to loose them, but hey they still cost kinda much, so make 15 barter reach for drop price 60%!
And when we here .... 15 at any skill should cap! Yippi!
lol Yeah lets loose all u carry instantly u die! PPU loose all his stuff in a sec, PE drop the termis, Spys the Spirit SH's! Woot that will make ppl happy yeah i can feel it!
Lets all just use store bought items cuz well who care to loose them, but hey they still cost kinda much, so make 15 barter reach for drop price 60%!
And when we here .... 15 at any skill should cap! Yippi!
You see? This is why Neocron is so carebear.
I used to play the real hardcore UO shards where if you died you lost everything, and believe you me, things where a hell of a lot harder to get there than they are in Neocron.
It was a PvP shard too. It fueled things, made rewards so big, and it made you think twice about using your Titan Katana.
Fun times.
.....Besides, it would fix the economy in a jiffy.
You see? This is why Neocron is so carebear.
I used to play the real hardcore UO shards where if you died you lost everything, and believe you me, things where a hell of a lot harder to get there than they are in Neocron.
It was a PvP shard too. It fueled things, made rewards so big, and it made you think twice about using your Titan Katana.
Fun times.
.....Besides, it would fix the economy in a jiffy.
Then go play UO!
lol Yeah lets loose all u carry instantly u die! PPU loose all his stuff in a sec, PE drop the termis, Spys the Spirit SH's! Woot that will make ppl happy yeah i can feel it!
Lets all just use store bought items cuz well who care to loose them, but hey they still cost kinda much, so make 15 barter reach for drop price 60%!
And when we here .... 15 at any skill should cap! Yippi!
So what if you lose stuff? Just go kill someone else and nick his.
I keep saying this over and over. I always figured just unlocking all belts would be best, but 15 HCK works too (though 20 might be better since 20 is the req on hack tools. But also safeslots should go, and up the tech part drop rate to compensate.
AWESOME Idea. 5 stars from me.
I wanted something similar awhile back, involving damaging the belt to a certain extent where the belt would "break" and the item would pop out.
I wanted that so people would be more encouraged to go out on their own. You never see tanks and monks, and to a certain extent, PEs solo-PK anymore because there's no incentive for killing other than insane SL/faction sympathy loss.
Many people can't afford to spec the 95-100 hack needed to crack open belts. It's an unfair system currently, and I think it needs to be changed. If you want to see more people fighting without PPUs as well, I think this is the first step in the right direction.
DOWN WITH THE CAREBEARS!@
Nah, 15 is way too little. Any moron could get that, and it would be pointless, and promote loot ganking. I'd prefer it remain as it is.
Yes I hate the current drop system. Aside from people stuffing there weapons right before they died the old system was a MILLION times better.
Ever since that change I have not enjoyed neocron nearly as much and that is no exageration or lie. Nothing like the excitement of knowing that either you our your enemy maybe dropping your rare. Nothing like picking up a fresh cs off of a tank I tell you.
AND SAFE SLOT HAS TO GO!
No crap losing an item is part of the penalty of death. Other then losin an item what penalties do we suffer aside from a couple minutes wait?totally hear what you're saying . . . safe slots and belts are some of the reasons why I just gave up on pvp. It's not as thrilling. Part of the thrill was . ..am I going to die and loose my gun??? noo i'm going to fight hard and make them lose something!!
get rid of carebear no drop warzones. The faction symp and such makes sense since there is no declare war on clan system but the no drop is uncalled for andnothing but a carebear rule.
Nah, 15 is way too little. Any moron could get that, and it would be pointless, and promote loot ganking. I'd prefer it remain as it is.
The whole point is you can loot who you kill.
Please don't call non hackers morons.
As for ganking, this is a PvP game, and ganking causes repocussions.
This poll is stupid too.
It's basicly Anti Carebears -vs- People who enjoy the aggie cellers a bit too much.
Could someone explain how drop-all fixes the economy?
Maybe I'm just not seeing it, but could someone explain how drop-all fixes the economy?
I'm not entirely sure. But I do know I would never buy a rare again. I'd just kill someone and steal theirs. :)
Yes you should only need 15 hack to open belts and Yes there should be no safe slot only things that should be safe is the imp's in your head :) Then we might see people using non rares to hunt other players for loot
Yes you should only need 15 hack to open belts and Yes there should be no safe slot only things that should be safe is the imp's in your head :) Then we might see people using non rares to hunt other players for loot
OMG then you'd mean it'd be rare to use a rare ;)
Theres no fear in this game any more I remebered playing this game way back befor I started playing the retail version I would crap my self if I saw someone while I was running through pepper park. I mean pkers back then where real pkers they did not give a shit they would kill you in the hope you dropped your gun and then they would sell it. It was like that I remeber lvling in the sewers and some tank came down and started smashing peoples skulls in with a baseball bat :lol: he was chasing all 5 of us around with a bat. If they removed the safe slot I think I would lom and use a blacksun and a rapid dex 63 uzi :)
I'd be a better idea if you upped the hack higher than 15. SA and SF chips give +10 hack each, so PEs or Spies wouldn't need any points in hacking to get a belt. Put it up to like 40 or 50.
most PE's and spys have at least 50 hack to open WB's anyway and how is a tank gonna get 50 hack unless hes melee not fair on the tank the tank should be able to get that loot he won the fight.
I'd be a better idea if you upped the hack higher than 15. SA and SF chips give +10 hack each, so PEs or Spies wouldn't need any points in hacking to get a belt. Put it up to like 40 or 50.
The point isn't about how hard it is to hack.
The point is if you die - You loose shit.
If you PK - You win shit.
The 15-20 hack is just there so the belts remain, and to kick specialisation a bit, and to make it a tad harder to get into ppls belts.
I fucking love this idea.
Seriously. I used to play a tank, I'd go out on pk sprees, I'd kill some people, and get nothing. Nothing at all for my killings. Just some n00bs calling me a lamer.
On the other end, it would be great to have a feeling of, 'Oh shit, I died, I hope I didn't lose my 3 slot cs...' It would give the game more of the cyber punk feel it's supposed to have.
5 stars.
sanityislost
20-06-04, 08:12
I kinda like the idea but 15-20 hack is way to low, would have to closer to 50
or 60. that way they would have to have slight gimpage for being able to get shit.
SiL ..:..
Yes I hate the current drop system. Aside from people stuffing there weapons right before they died the old system was a MILLION times better.
[snip]
AND SAFE SLOT HAS TO GO!
Agreed wholeheartily. Bring back the old rules.
You guys just dont want to stop till you kill this game. Its not being carebear its preserving the fun for players thus retaining players. I know it sounds all cool and shit to be able to just gank and steal people's rares, but face facts it wouldnt be long till the gap between the hav's and havenots would be much wider then it is now. There is "hay this would be cool", and there is the reality of how things are.
Lucid Dream
20-06-04, 09:37
making belt hacking easier? im all for it, im a hacker by trade, but hell, as long as hacknet is half decent, screw belts, i want my hacknet. As far as losing the safe slot? HELL NO. No safeslot would mean a lot of things, such as noone would carry a remotely decent weapon around the city (what with no safe zones) and the only time decent pvp would happen would be at OP fights!
this is the most stupid idea ever suggested. in theory it sounds nice and all, but in application its stupid.
When rpgs were first concieved , and made a player whose character died will be deleted and never used again. In application it was extremely stupid since players would lose an entire years work to a bad dice roll, thus ressurection was introduced.
When UO was made origin wanted to make it the most realistic thing ever, they wanted players to lose all their items when they died. In application it became the flagship game of griefing, people dying to things like lag, unfair large groups picking out on newbie mining. I have seen people losing their lives to UO, because it reassembled real life so much.
The mmorpgs that followed proceeded to correct the grief by making it much harder to lose things players hold so dear.
Now the last thing I want happening to Neocron is this, forcing this game into an effective lets grief each other, and become scavengers, let those who work hard for their things lose it, and let those who only want to kill be awarded with the best items without using effort.
This not only doesn't encourage pvp, it also promotes griefing. The strongest clans will stay strongest, by having the best equipment they took from the players they killed. This is not a carebear game, but these things are here to prevent that sort of grief, when you are a lone spy trying to level and getting ganked in gr to lose your FL by a bunch of wankers because he got stuck in sync is not funny anf not fair.
I have seen people lose things in UO through an exploit, bug or just plain griefing. People make very real attachments to their digital possesions, when they lose something they worked so hard on it will absolutely break them. This is the thing I don't want to see in Neocron, a game is where you have fun, not where you play to be in grief.
A game is here to do things you can't do in real life, and get fun from him. Sure its realistic to lose important things, but thats exatcly the reason why I don't hang around at night in mafia streets holding a kitchen knife and taunting my opponents, its fun but I know hell any second i'd lose my everything. Now in a game I can do the same thing, but I won't lose stuff, thats why its fun. Now its ok to lose things, as part of the role play but losing my PA4, is nothing compared to losing my 4 slot HL. It is unnecessary to promote the feelings of sadness, hate and loss into a game.
Leave it as it is, and don't make people feel that pain again. Thise discourages pvp and encourages lame ganking techniques, nuff said.
FireWarrior
20-06-04, 10:52
Lowering the reqs for quickbelt hacking to 15? No, would kill the game.
Removing the safeslot? Dunno, never done much for me anyway as I always loose bits and pieces of my armor instead.
/start_rant - warning to all flaming asshats on these forums
Personally I would like to blast the head off anyone using the term "carebear" it has only one purpose, to insult people that don't care much for PvP. In my opinion any player that need to back up his arguments with the word "carebear", regardless of the situation, should be perma-banned within 15 seconds of saying it. It's pathetic, ridiculous and has no place in a honest disucssion.
Neocron may be focused on PvP, but so what? If you say that "Anyone that does not want to PvP should go play SWG or a similar carebear-game" then I will hunt you down and stick a white.hot firepoker up your ass. I DON'T want to play PvP and I DON'T like the way that SWG works, I prefer Neocron. that's why I play it.
Besides, if the game is loosing players now because of senseless ganking, think how many PKers there would be if anyone could hack belts... The entire non-PvP population would be gone in a matter of weeks and the first to go would be new players. Funny! Then you can have 25 players at peak time on Saturn and with a bit of luck 10-15 on the rest of the servers! Won't that be fun?
/end_rant - warning to all flaming asshats on these forums
Making quickbelts easier to hack might be all good and nice, but 15 is FAAAR to low, setting it at 15 would not encourage diversity, setting it to around 60-75 or so would since it would be higher than most for WB hacking, which would give most the possibilty to hack belts with almost any class, they would just have to be slightly weaker in other areas. As it should be.
I keep saying this over and over. I always figured just unlocking all belts would be best, but 15 HCK works too (though 20 might be better since 20 is the req on hack tools. But also safeslots should go, and up the tech part drop rate to compensate.
Yes. That, and KK make an announcement to say that "rares" are not supposed to be rare.
That would be a dream come true. :D
The higher droprate would be awesome as well, because it would mean that you aren't fucked when you lose a rare, but it sets you back a bit. And it would mean increased business for consters and get the economy flowing a bit more.
Yes. That, and KK make an announcement to say that "rares" are not supposed to be rare.
That would be a dream come true. :D
The higher droprate would be awesome as well, because it would mean that you aren't fucked when you lose a rare, but it sets you back a bit. And it would mean increased business for consters and get the economy flowing a bit more.
ah the joys of pvping for 10 or so minutes, then spending the next week killing warbots, that must be great great fun. If KK made hunting rare parts more fun then camping J05 for 5 hours, then yes i'd agree to this idea, but probably about 55-65 hacking. At the moment losing a 4 slot CS to an FRE is ridiculously.
greendonkeyuk
20-06-04, 11:57
remove rares or make storebought guns/items/spells a lot tougher than they are now. Then id agree with this, for now no i dont agree. the gap between rare and non rare is still too high especially for the less skilled players. if that makes me a carebear then id like to be the green one please.
[TgR]KILLER
20-06-04, 12:03
lol 15 hack.. you do remember that a PE pretty much always have that.. SF + spy 1.. and i got it always.. sf+sa+ spy 1 is 25 hack :rolleyes:
I voted no, ... Oh and for the record, ... I am Big Ass Carebear, ... so? Gonna KoS me now? huh huh? Well fine!
ah the joys of pvping for 10 or so minutes, then spending the next week killing warbots, that must be great great fun. If KK made hunting rare parts more fun then camping J05 for 5 hours, then yes i'd agree to this idea, but probably about 55-65 hacking. At the moment losing a 4 slot CS to an FRE is ridiculously.
Oh come on... 10 mins of PvP? Lets not go crazy. :rolleyes:
And even then, its a one in 10 chance that you drop your rare weapon.
Personally, I hate rares and think that the game would be better without them. I mean come on... its just so cliche MMORPG.
I voted no, ... Oh and for the record, ... I am Big Ass Carebear, ... so? Gonna KoS me now? huh huh? Well fine!
Yes, yes I am. :D
Oh come on... 10 mins of PvP? Lets not go crazy. :rolleyes:
And even then, its a one in 10 chance that you drop your rare weapon.
Personally, I hate rares and think that the game would be better without them. I mean come on... its just so cliche MMORPG.
Yes, yes I am. :D
yes but sadly with the 15 hack it means you'd lose the thing you'd drop and most classes have more then 1 valueble item in their 10 slots. E.G on a APU you'd have holy antibuff as well, on a PE probably a secondary weapon, some nice spells, and yes 1 in 10 chance of losing your primary weapon is a big chance, this is in addition on the 15 hack, and the other items you could lose as well, a 10% chance is far too great for frequent pkiers who at least die 2-3 times , killed by stupid things like FRE or groups, 20-30% of dropping a primary weapon is very large.
I don't see anything wrong with the rares system at the moment. I think its good that there are item parts that can be discovered, research and built into powerful artifacts.
The last thing you want is having true rares, where only a selected few in the game have them, this would make them true rare guns, but it be stupid. Its like the whole thing where only a few people had the terminator, cuz a GM spawned it or something.
If you remove rares, high end gameplay will be the same, only with non-rares, so let the people have fun :P
as to why a piece of holy paralysis is in a terror, or warbot will forever be a mystery....
QuantumDelta
20-06-04, 14:23
Remove safe slot.
Keep belt drops, make it easier to hack lower (less than 50) SL belts harder to hack higher (+50) SL belts.
--
Belts with less than -32 SL = No hack needed.
--
Up the fucking mob drop rate for rares and we could go back to the old days with no belts but atm losing something rare really can fucking hurt especially if it's a newbie character/player who isn't fueled by someone who's got a stock pile of rares.
--
It was fine in the old days, you could even replace a CS within a day of really hard PvM / Trade.
These days...
Hah, like fuck.
Up Mob Loot -- Remove Belt / Safe Slot.
KILLER']lol 15 hack.. you do remember that a PE pretty much always have that.. SF + spy 1.. and i got it always.. sf+sa+ spy 1 is 25 hack :rolleyes:
I said that already. Copy cat.
remove rares or make storebought guns/items/spells a lot tougher than they are now. Then id agree with this, for now no i dont agree. the gap between rare and non rare is still too high especially for the less skilled players. if that makes me a carebear then id like to be the green one please.
Removing rares would drive away people faster than doing Benjie's idea would. That's by far worse than making belts easier to hack. And Storebought guns/items/spells, assuming they're decently slotted and CST'd, not store bought... ok lets call them non-rares. The high level non-rares are very good guns for the most part. the TL92 (i think) pulselaser rifle is just as strong as the pain easer. Same could be said with the TL93 (i think) pulselaser pistol. Both are non-rare, and both are about as strong as their tech level, even for being a non-rare. Hell, look at the Tangent Plasma Cannon or Tangent Speed Gatling Cannon. The TPC has a higher RoF than the pain easer, more damage and easier to aim. The TSG has same RoF as a liberator and does about 1 damage less. Did I mention they're both easier to cap too?
PPUs have it easy. The only rares they need are like Holy Cath (hardly), True Sight Sanc (doesn't even work well) and Holy Paralysis.
Only 3 classes can't compete without a rare... APUs, Droners and Melee. Holy Light is the only good APU spell to hit a single target. It's more than twice as strong as Energy Beam. Droners.. well they've been without rares for a long time... I'm sure people could survive without a PN or REVENGE or... whichever drone removed heal (it changed recently). But since rare drones can be BPd... they're easy as hell to get. Melee rares sell for like 50k for a 5 slot.
So really, greendonkeyuk, having rares in the game is NOT a problem. There is a gap between rares and non-rares, but that's mostly because of TL difference and balance changes that only applied to a specific gun, not all rares.
@QD: Yay, you joined Rai and me in using Vet's quote for a sig!!!!!111 Here, have a cookie.
Thing is people is too used to rares, we even believe that without one PvP is not possible or we cannot stand a chance against a rare user; so suggesting the possibility of losing rares in PvP with relative ease is not going to be welcome at this point.
Some liked more the old system, not only due the tech drop, but because people PvP'ed with TPCs, EPRs, etc... and rares even overpowered compared with normal weapons, still were rare. Then we progressed and learnt a lot about the game and we became more resistant to damage, the drop rate was very high so everyone got a rare, and the disadvantage of non rare users started to be more evident.
Personally I'd like more a Neocron with rares as very rare, and at least a Neocron where the difference between rare and non-rare weapons was very small, almost non existant. Then maybe people would not be so mad against the idea of no safe slots, and no belt drops.
I'm hoping Lupus' TL rework counts this, so in the future we could get the chance of getting a system more rewarding towards player made weapons, and less important rare weapon trades.
I dream a bit of a Neocron of player ran shops, where runners go off shopping and buy player made weapons to use them in combat with other players, rather than for their newbie characters while leveling. Not sure if this is possible anymore tho given the insane ammount of already built rares, perhaps when the playerbase grows...
I kinda like Benjies idea, rarely does Benjie have an idea I don't like. I think it would be cool to only make it 15 hack. But i think it would be cooler to base the lvl 100% on SL. so if you have 0 through 10 SL it would take only a mere 40 to hack, and if you have -1 through -15 it would take 20, -16 and on would take near nothing and would be like an item drop. Where as if you have 50 SL it would take an ungodly amount to hack. Thus adding a POINT to having good SL.
Bred
I'd rather see belt drops removed completely and ALL specialization nerfed.
But this is still a step in the right direction. 5 stars.
Doc Holliday
20-06-04, 16:21
i would like to say belts hack lowered for sure. right now its pistol pes/spies that can break belts. rifle pe has to gimp bad to do it which is a slap in the face of anti specializatioin. not dead sure about the removal of safe slot. even with a huge ass drop rate a 5 slot pe or cs or dissie or what ever is going to be hard to replace simply because some people like to think back about who they killed with that gun. like rai said in his earlier post some people just become attached to their items. i lost a 4 slot archer rifle back in the day after scraping enough money to actually buy the bits. took a while too as i was on my first char. i get it built and am in the aggies using it to make some money off the imps and in comes a big bad smurf. out comes the cs and down i go. he gets my archer. i was fuming and i gave him shit on dm. then saw one of his clan and told her about it. gave them shit too. lol. eventually he returned the item. months and months later he got his ass whooped by me at mb but thats very ot. now imagine if you were like me and someone didnt give u the item back. or u had little money to sort yourself out. With enough people moaning about beggars on the servers are u gonna get any money back to get a new gun...... really? ok so u guys will say join a clan but le runners cant join a clan. then what. it will bring out the same debates on these forums as have been rehashed over and over in the past. i agree with benjie about the speciallization subject and agree in part over the belt drops. they should be lowered to 65 or so. thats a big drop imo. However the point im making about the safeslot removal is how much it hurts the noob. sure a capped char can go out whore rares for a night 2 nights 3 nights and get another pe if he hasnt got 5 already stored just in case he drops one. its the noob who takes the penalty of no safeslot cos he wont have 19 billion creds etc to replace his gear.
My Suggestion is this. if everyone was so so definitely up for removal of safeslots even belt removal then implement a system where if the runner uses his le he will not drop anything period. My mind doesnt remember so good whether they did "back in the day" or not as my le came out at 0/2 due to the maluses on the levelling and cash gain plus the higher reqs for an le chip. You lot can go ahead and flame this as carebear if u want but look at what i wrote again before u comment.
thank you.
I'd support it
But i don't wanna loose my rares to fre's syncs and various other bugs, i can handle loosing my rare 1 on 1 etc but when it's lost to a error of some form or another it's friggin frustrating.
The only thing is if they did this i'd expect the drop rates to be back up to what they were around drop season, i didn't mind loosing it cuz i knew a bit of work i could get it back.
But atm there's so much in the pool it could take to long to get it back especially when you have to try and trade wyat erp parts etc for CS parts or HL parts.
There my only gripes with it apart from that i support this idea.
"And even then, its a one in 10 chance that you drop your rare weapon."
This is what will spark another debate if it happened, when i used to pvp i'd have a belt with the few items i needed and the rest would be junk, the drop system shoould be done how its done now anything in your inv/belt is considered and the value thing etc.
I used to whip my cs into my inv and at 10 hp, everyone else did so i wasnt throwin my rares for everyone.
and tbh rares dropped a-lot i used to watch pvp battles in basements and see cs's mals etc all dropping around.
People used to stand there with Le's stealing the weapons (another problem for you) and no-one had any idea who took it
For those keeping score, the true hardcore players are the ones that dont want the safeslot and liked item drop. Everyone else... including the current "1337 PKars" that cry when you suggest we remove the safeslot... are the actual carebears.
Carry on.
And remove safeslots. If you want Neocron to be dangerous, thats dangerous. PKing newbs isnt dangerous.
The old days were no fun for me , because i was a n00b.
But thinking about it, and the fact I barely play neo now, it would be kinda fun to have the old drop system back, put some of the old fire back into the game. I know id become a bad ass pker (well... with a lot of practice mind :P) straight away, ganking left right and centre, unconditionally, stealing and robbing from everyone in my path, fair fight or ganked during a fight with 10 grims...hrhr :D
That sounds WAY more fun.
See I dont PK because... well, whats in it for me ?
Dont worry bout losing ur gun. Just go jump someone and get urself a new one.
So long as people would be happy with tactics like this. Hell yes. no belts, items on the floor. (I would :D)
Oh yes, but pump up the drop rate... say 10X. lets get armed and dangerous :D
trigger hurt
20-06-04, 17:19
For those keeping score, the true hardcore players are the ones that dont want the safeslot and liked item drop. Everyone else... including the current "1337 PKars" that cry when you suggest we remove the safeslot... are the actual carebears.
Carry on.
And remove safeslots. If you want Neocron to be dangerous, thats dangerous. PKing newbs isnt dangerous.
Says the guy with his LE firmly implanted in his head.
Says the guy with his LE firmly implanted in his head.
He's not puffing himself up as some sort of 1337 Playa Kill0r though.
Peace.
-Moscow
I don't like the idea of playing a scavenger. At the end of the day I just want a good challenge, and a bit of fun with my enemies, I have no intention to grief or hurt my foes, neocron is enough a griefing game as it is, don't make it become worse. I did not play in the old days, but I think it would be very messy.
I think I got pked in Neocron when I was a newbie, more then UO :wtf:
the sad fact is pking people is very easy in Neocron, and people suffer no immediete penalty for it.
I'd accept losing a rare, if I lost it fair and square, but with the game stability its very likely we are all somepoint going to lose a valueble rare because of some stupid bug, or sync error.
Sure Neocron is meant to be dark and dangerous, but the bugs and crashes have nothing to do with the game, and those things can get you killed for ridiculous reasons. Also with the current design, this encourages team ganking, and gr camping.
Yes after the BDOy, the belt drop hacking level should be reduced to at least 70. Thats my opinion anyways. I think the game changed for the better. Its not impossible to be JOAT, my HC PE researchs, implants, hacks, constructs, kills people with TPC, recycles, repairs and drives a trike. Its all changed for the better in my opinion.
People often look fondly of the past because of the first time experience, but look at Neocron now, its a better game then it was.
Says the guy with his LE firmly implanted in his head.Wow. You SERIOUSLY have no idea what you are talking about do you?
Why dont you take a break from the forums.
When you come back, try to not make such stupid statements, and maybe your participation in threads will be taken more seriously in the future.
Thanks.
QuantumDelta
20-06-04, 18:11
@QD: Yay, you joined Rai and me in using Vet's quote for a sig!!!!!111 Here, have a cookie.
It's a simple truth.
I don't know why I didn't bring it into words before.
...Though I probably did somewhere way back when o.O
Whats up with ya guys that whant drop all and hack with 15? Sure the good PvPer would get uhm all ..... those that cant realy PvP loose all
Hey they can keep LE in, why should f00king n00bs go in a Clan and have fun?! Im the 1337 player and if they put LE out i can gank them all to get the stuff they carry!! WOOOT!!
Im so uber again a player that stop to play cuz he lost his stuff while run around Hunting mobs and me gank him!
Very good plan to destroy the Game! Go on with it get it retail and i give the game 2 weeks and its gone!
I don't know why I didn't bring it into words before.
...Though I probably did somewhere way back when
lol?
U pretentious boob! :p
QuantumDelta
20-06-04, 18:39
lol?
U pretentious boob! :p
....Just considering the amount of words I've posted on this forum.
Like hell I remember them all, do you? o_O
:p
Doc Holliday
20-06-04, 18:44
Whats up with ya guys that whant drop all and hack with 15? Sure the good PvPer would get uhm all ..... those that cant realy PvP loose all
Hey they can keep LE in, why should f00king n00bs go in a Clan and have fun?! Im the 1337 player and if they put LE out i can gank them all to get the stuff they carry!! WOOOT!!
Im so uber again a player that stop to play cuz he lost his stuff while run around Hunting mobs and me gank him!
Very good plan to destroy the Game! Go on with it get it retail and i give the game 2 weeks and its gone!
i take it u dont like the idea then exodia? :cool:
Psycho Killa
20-06-04, 18:50
Very good plan to destroy the Game! Go on with it get it retail and i give the game 2 weeks and its gone!
There was 600-800 people on pluto when we had no safe slot and items dropped straight on the ground. Still wanna tell me it will ruin the game?
Unfortunately most people with the mind set to say yes to this have left the game because of changes like the hackbelt drop.
KTHXBYE
There was 600-800 people on pluto when we had no safe slot and items dropped straight on the ground. Still wanna tell me it will ruin the game?
Unfortunately most people with the mind set to say yes to this have left the game because of changes like the hackbelt drop.
KTHXBYE
Exactly.
Most people on the forums (I said most) have no fucking idea what Neocron was like back in the days of early retail, I personally don't know what it was like in Beta, apparantly quite fun. :D
Early retail rules > Now rules (except that I like items being dropped in a quickbelt, so that they don't disappear)
Now stability > Old stability
Alot of people are going "Fuck no" to the idea, but only reading like half of it. Read the whole idea guys, its fucking awesome, it worked before and when KK changed it around half the population left, and was replaced with... :rolleyes:
If you want to be able to loot who you kill, play a spy. You chose to play a big dumb tank, then it seems normal than you can't do anything but bashing people...
Specialization is the difference between a MMORPG, and say Quake.
Btw, I voted for the 3rd :D
Specialization is the difference between a MMORPG, and say Quake.
Nah, I have to disagree.
Specialisation is one of the worst parts of Neocron right about now. It's linear-o-cron in terms of class flexability. Setting up your character is one of the main parts of an mmorpg - and you should be able to do it with some degree of freedom. At the moment theres barely any, and nowhere near enough.
@ the 10 people who think I smell of wee - I have $500 worth of aftershave, and thats only about 8 bottles. :p (I like expensive smellys)
I partly agree with you. Specialization is the problem. But not the one you are talking of. The problem is that people want to have a full pvp character, and also be able to repoke, hack, and so on.
A tank is not intended to be a good hacker. It is intended to be a big steack with a gun. If you want to be able to hack and fight, you have the choice between monks, pistol PE, and spy. With a spy you can even poke, hack, and fight (pistol). The problem is not specialization in skills, the problem is people who want to be über specialized in fight, but who also want to be able to do everything else.
I partly agree with you. Specialization is the problem. But not the one you are talking of. The problem is that people want to have a full pvp character, and also be able to repoke, hack, and so on.
A tank is not intended to be a good hacker. It is intended to be a big steack with a gun. If you want to be able to hack and fight, you have the choice between monks, pistol PE, and spy. With a spy you can even poke, hack, and fight (pistol). The problem is not specialization in skills, the problem is people who want to be über specialized in fight, but who also want to be able to do everything else.
It's not about a Tank or any class with no hack skill being a good hacker. Besides, it's one element and doesn't include Hacknet, Outpost wars, or PvM.
It's about bringing drop rules back to there old state with a comprimise.
When you died before, you would drop one item on the ground with no quickbelt. At the time, hackers where complaining about a lack of things to hack, and people where also complaining a bit about items deteriating. Hence the current rules.
Frankly, they remove the Zest of PvP in Neocron.
Hacknet gives hackers much more, and the quickbelt theory is still sound.
Hence why so many people like my idea.
trigger hurt
20-06-04, 20:59
There was 600-800 people on pluto when we had no safe slot and items dropped straight on the ground. Still wanna tell me it will ruin the game?
Unfortunately most people with the mind set to say yes to this have left the game because of changes like the hackbelt drop.
KTHXBYE
Those 600-800 people were also during the time when Neocron first started as retail. The player count had nothing to do with the item dropped, because it was that way for all servers.
That aside, I think we really need to do something about item drop. Like, exclude drugs, boosters, etc from dropping. Alot of times I will spend an hour or so camping one spot to snipe someone who comes through for them to only drop a booster. Hardly worth my ammo.
Btw, this isnt me being an asshole when I do this. I am a rifle spy built to have agl/atl to find a new hiding place quickly. I use obliterator and silent hunter most of the time, occasionally I get caught in scrapes where I have to use an up-close weapon, those times, I usually die. For the most part, I snipe...whether it's a genrep or an op's ug or a leveling area frequented by enemy factions...doesnt matter.
I used to have a ton of fun when belt drops were a 1-10 chance...but the way things are on Saturn now, getting re-equipped would take a lot of money and a lot of time...it just wouldn't be worth it.
I don't agree. To me it's either one of the 2 that has to go, not both
Maybe remove the safeslot, yes, but keep belts being harder to hack with better soullight. Besides, it's not that hard to ask a spy friend to come and hack a belt.
With what you're proposing, you'd just have people killing you for whatever gun you have, ALL the time. They'd even kill you if you only had a weak ass laser rifle/cannon/whatever, just for the heck of it, or "CAUSE I CAN"... Don't say it's not true, a lot of people playing this game are just like that and it ruins the fun for a lot of others.
And the population of pluto didn't just drop to what it is now after safeslot was introduced. Most people that left got sick of stability issues like the FREs
I'd quit the game if my tank was to drop his 4 slot CS (except if i deserved it, AKA red SL)
Psycho Killa
20-06-04, 22:06
Good one less carebear.
You do realise we would want it to be easier to get a cs by upping the drop rate and you would be able to gank someone elses cs?
and clean up the fucking rare pool!@ that would help tons.
I'd quit the game if my tank was to drop his 4 slot CS (except if i deserved it, AKA red SL)
Thats what everyone said when this carebear system was implamented.
Did they leave?
Yes.
You do realise we would want it to be easier to get a cs by upping the drop rate and you would be able to gank someone elses cs?
Exactly.
This idea would just lead to more GR camping and allied faction killing (because more people can get the contents of the belts so it is more attractive)
Psycho Killa
20-06-04, 22:31
Then they would have neutral/negative soullight and you can go and kill them without negative repurcusions and steal there weapon. Not to mention it woldnt be a guarantee you would lose your gun. So you would make many enemies and screw yourself over and not even get a gun possibly. Also this would be nice to be in conjunction with no safezones.
This way people would be held accountable for there actions more. Try to be a notorious pker when everyone you've pissed off is relaying your position over occ constantly.
Third provision would be that rares would be better then normal guns but NOT a neccesity for pvp. Example: Tl changes higher up weapons closer to rares.
leGit v. 2
20-06-04, 22:35
this game is dead? everytime kk changes something.. more people leave.. All this bitching about nerf this nerf that, killed this game.. everything was fine in the beginning. All your changes f'd this game up honestly
Then they would have neutral/negative soullight and you can go and kill them without negative repurcusions and steal there weapon. Not to mention it woldnt be a guarantee you would lose your gun. So you would make many enemies and screw yourself over and not even get a gun possibly. Also this would be nice to be in conjunction with no safezones.
Everbodies items would be going into big clans' possession and you prolly can't kill lots of people on your own to get your item back.
Psycho Killa
20-06-04, 22:48
Certainly you would have to make friends to survive unless your very good at the game. Though this wouldn't neccesarily be a bad thing.
Its a cold dark harsh cyberpunk world. Whos going to survive the long gunman or the gang?
You guys just dont want to stop till you kill this game. Its not being carebear its preserving the fun for players thus retaining players. I know it sounds all cool and shit to be able to just gank and steal people's rares, but face facts it wouldnt be long till the gap between the hav's and havenots would be much wider then it is now. There is "hay this would be cool", and there is the reality of how things are.
Not at all. I was killing runners when I was a noob. I got their guns. I never had the skills to hack. If I saw a high-level player banging away with his CS at a mob and his health got too low I would sneak up and pop him with my very basic crap rocket launcher, and if lucky I'd get his CS, although in general all I got were medipacks and sticks :-> Fab!
At the moment you have to be a high-skilled hack to hack the belt. No low-level newbie will be able to do that.
And as I've said afore: Chasing the tank with CS really would mean something in this games, because there was a real reason for chasing him in the midst of battle. Instead his PPU just grabs the belt.
Certainly you would have to make friends to survive unless your very good at the game. Though this wouldn't neccesarily be a bad thing.
Its a cold dark harsh cyberpunk world. Whos going to survive the long gunman or the gang?
Which is going to the most fun: being killed by a group of gr camping zergers or not?
Psycho Killa
21-06-04, 00:12
The fun part will be gathering a mob who is angry at the gr campers and hunting them down!
Don't tell me this wont happen either. I remember in beta 4 i was a nub runner and in plaza someone was spamming IF YOU HATE CRACKHEADS GO TO OUTZONE STATION. Being pked only a few minutes earlier by a crackhead I decided I would see what was going on. Next thing you know a mob of 50 people from various factions and clans are charging the 10-20 crackheads in jerriko. Was my first op fight and damn was it fun even if i got taken out rather quickly.
trigger hurt
21-06-04, 00:29
Let me tell you what I remember about early retail and the drop rules of days gone by.
Here's how I decided what gun I was going to carry.
1- Will there be the posibility that I will be shot at?
If Yes, are you intentionally going for a fight?
If Yes, carry your favorite gun.
If No, carry shitty gun and lots of medpacks.
Generally in this situation, I dropped medpacks, stick, drugs, etc more than I dropped anything else. I never dropped armor because *surprise* it wasn't considered in the odds of dropping something. I dropped a gun once. It was a 4 slot gatlin cannon and Starkes actually gave it back...
Some of the people here who are asking for this change are the same people who were complaining that this game isn't about PvP Loot. Hell, I remember the threads about it. People complained, it got changed and that's the way it was.
The difference between then and now:
1- There were actually people standing in plaza advertising they had constructors and researchers and pokers. Either those people have decided they wanted to fight and could careless about tradeskilling or only log the tradeskiller on for clan stuff or those people have quit.
Tradeskillers are not abundant. I don't want to wait until tomorrow to get a new gun blue printed and built.
I'm all for changing the item drop, but the server population needs to increase by A LOT before it will be worth it. If Pluto is the hardcore server, why don't you guys test out your theory there. All you need to do is ask to have the safe slot removed. The other part will be difficult because KK probably has to change some code somewhere to fix the belts.
The fun part will be gathering a mob who is angry at the gr campers and hunting them down!
Don't tell me this wont happen either. I remember in beta 4 i was a nub runner and in plaza someone was spamming IF YOU HATE CRACKHEADS GO TO OUTZONE STATION. Being pked only a few minutes earlier by a crackhead I decided I would see what was going on. Next thing you know a mob of 50 people from various factions and clans are charging the 10-20 crackheads in jerriko. Was my first op fight and damn was it fun even if i got taken out rather quickly.
Heh, I remember that. :lol: I Gr'ed there too. :D
Man it's a small world.
This idea would just lead to more GR camping and allied faction killing (because more people can get the contents of the belts so it is more attractive)
Agree totally.
Dont fuck with my belt!
There is a reason why SL affects your quikbelt-2-hack-difficulty.
As for the skill required, it's too early to talk about what would be needed for a scenario we dont know nothing about (hack.net)
KK should stop listening to everyone barfing up ideas on the forum. If i have a good playstyle and dont PK people i want a reward for that = harder belt to hack. If someone is a fucktard and PK people randomly, he should loose everything.
But go ahead, kill the game even further, i've cancelled before in protest and i can do it again, this time a few more people will go away. Enjoy your CrapStrike server.
I said it be4 and i will say again This poll is useless!
If ever it will happens that that shit will get retail, the Game is dead in like 1 week!
Its not about carebear shit, we not play a pure shooter here. Even if i think Benjie and PK not see that this way.
Sure it is PvP based but there ARE!! other things then PvP in this game!
And like about 20% of the community can realy PvP and wanna fuck up the other 80%?
Now not come and tell me they have to train and such shit, cuz hey they may like what they do and have fun play NC not only to PvP?
They may like be in a clan have fun hunting, building and doing other stuff then PvP!
But sure lets camp them and take away all theyr stuff! So we soon got a Community of like 10 ppl totaly!
That will rock ye!
I said it be4 and i will say again This poll is useless!
If ever it will happens that that shit will get retail, the Game is dead in like 1 week!
Its not about carebear shit, we not play a pure shooter here. Even if i think Benjie and PK not see that this way.
Sure it is PvP based but there ARE!! other things then PvP in this game!
And like about 20% of the community can realy PvP and wanna fuck up the other 80%?
Now not come and tell me they have to train and such shit, cuz hey they may like what they do and have fun play NC not only to PvP?
They may like be in a clan have fun hunting, building and doing other stuff then PvP!
But sure lets camp them and take away all theyr stuff! So we soon got a Community of like 10 ppl totaly!
That will rock ye!
my thought exatcly there is an ongoing large fraction of the neocron population who is not into pvp at any time: people hunting rares, people have a cup of tea, people leveling. This fraction is unprepared for PvP, and we have no right to force them into getting griefed, or encourage it for that manner.
True neocron is a piece of shit without pvp, and this change would do nothing but discourage pvp alltogether.
where is the
'no because you smell of wee'
option?
I said it be4 and i will say again This poll is useless!
If ever it will happens that that shit will get retail, the Game is dead in like 1 week!
Its not about carebear shit, we not play a pure shooter here. Even if i think Benjie and PK not see that this way.
Sure it is PvP based but there ARE!! other things then PvP in this game!
And like about 20% of the community can realy PvP and wanna fuck up the other 80%?
Now not come and tell me they have to train and such shit, cuz hey they may like what they do and have fun play NC not only to PvP?
They may like be in a clan have fun hunting, building and doing other stuff then PvP!
But sure lets camp them and take away all theyr stuff! So we soon got a Community of like 10 ppl totaly!
That will rock ye!
Have you forgotten early retail already? Let me refresh your memory. LOTS more people. And, no belts. Did the game die? No. It was actually at its peak. Go figure.
Have you forgotten early retail already? Let me refresh your memory. LOTS more people. And, no belts. Did the game die? No. It was actually at its peak. Go figure.yeah it was rockin...
Think belt changes and Hybrid nerf sent a load of to other places, bugs sent another chunk.... and then you have this whats left..
There's nothing anymore, death isn't worrying at all, i worry more about a fatal than i do about someone sniping me of a hill or something, i have nothing to lose, nothing whatsoever.
i can die till i am blue and break the gr but i still would have all my items safely stored in my backpack on the floor, whatever dropped in my belt wouldn't worry because low and behold i have this secret slot on my belt which will lock my weapon permenetly to my corpse unless you have a spy with 100 odd hack.
i remember when i was a nib, leveling in the aggies, i used to get owned by capped tanks and yes it was annoying, but half the time i used to love watching it when a tank would come to get the pker and being able to see tl 100+ rares in action in the basement was awesome especially when you see the pker get owned and have that smug satisfaction.
i can remember when plaza was packed, pepper would be battling and normally always a few peeps waiting for you there, there was always the threat of gr campers, the world was dangerous very dangerous, you had to think before you did things. What guns will i need for this op war, wait i can't carry all these cuz i might lose one etc.
Warbots dropped 3 parts sometimes more nearly all the time, rares were being traded left right and centre and normally for prices the average citizen could afford.
Now they are getting to mad prices cuz peeps cba to hunt techs, or have a char doing apcs who buys em for like 800k a part leaving lower lev chars or peeps without that kinda income stumped.
i got my Filter 2 for 20k.... cs for 300k, mal for 200k .... i couldn't even get a good part for that money these days :/
Now they take that danger element away, the only thing you fear is getting a poker not death itself....
And like about 20% of the community can realy PvP and wanna fuck up the other 80%?
Eh? I think more than 20% of the population PvP.
the population fell , because most people realized that there is little to do after 3-4 months of playing, and the promotion for the game sucked too much for more population, beyond the beta players obtained from the open beta fileplanet. This has nothing to do with the game changes. The population we have now is "still" the remainder from the open beta. Those who somehow find the game interesting after 2 years.
Yes hybrid nerf was good, I really didn't like 1 monk taking out 20 people. Then the later days the only class people played were hybrid monks.
Also the belt thing was added, because stealthers would come and loot everything. Whether it should not be removed now, is a mystery to me.
I think that you have what 3 hunting zones? and if the world was dangerous around all 3 zones, what do I do? Curl up into a ball and hide? The belt meant people would not live so much in fear, sure a dangerous world is fun, but not when you can't level at all, because you keep getting ganked.
Neocron failed and lost numbers because those changes were not made earlier, and people realized how stupid it was.
Maybe if the drop rate i hell higher, and there is another place other then crp to level. Then yes.
Also the belt thing was added, because stealthers would come and loot everything. Whether it should not be removed now, is a mystery to me.
Erm dude... belts were added before stealth was.
Neocron failed and lost numbers because those changes were not made earlier, and people realized how stupid it was.
Bullshit.
Maybe if the drop rate i hell higher, and there is another place other then crp to level. Then yes.
There are other places to level than CRP, its not the games fault that everyone seems to stay in one fucking place.
slaughteruall
21-06-04, 16:34
Maybe if the drop rate i hell higher
Already been stated that that would need to happen. I only skimmed a few pages and i saw that said a few times.
and there is another place other then crp to level. Then yes.
Really?
I have a almost capped tank (3 CON to go) who has never been to CRP/elfarid/graves/cat lock. There is a thing called mob hunting (not caving) that you can do to cap a char. Besides the one time i've taken my tank to MC5 i never had a PPU with me either. OMG you can lvl with out a PPU. Something most people dont seem to think is possible.
Try this think before you type.
This could work i will vote yes mainly because what QD added to it. I dont want specialisation to be gone maybe brought down some. Either no hack for belts or more then 20. 20 for a PE or spy is to easy. It's nothing. 20 to a PvP tank is alot. But also bring down spec tanks will cap CS's easier. Monks will cap everything. Might bring around new hybrids since you wont have to spec so many points to get good frq/dmg.
Slaughter
There are other places to level than CRP, its not the games fault that everyone seems to stay in one fucking place.
and people wonder why they get ganked all the time.....
Gankers check all the same leveling spots cuz everyone is always there (bet even they were there before they became leet pk), if low ranks spread out about places chances are there pk amount will get reduced radically.
There's so much of neocron and the wastelands, but people stay in the same few spots.... Sewer>basement>mb/storage>crp>cap
I still don't think this will work out, maybe i'm just stupid. I didn't meant stealthers as in stealthed, but people who run really fast and sneak quickly to take everything that drops. The belt thing will fix this.
Did I say that it was not mentioned before? I am just saying that drop rates must be increased.
Why do you think the top reason for newbies to leave is "because i'm always pked". Yeah if you got a lot of time you can cap in main sewers, but thats beside the point.
When you are a spy or monk who is on his base 80+ , no other place other then crp can give you the exp you need. Maybe you can hunt warbots for a year then cap, apart from tanks and pes. Spies and monks need crp to cap.
Yeah you can level without a ppu sure, but thats because you are a stupid, the games mobs have been adjusted to ppus and hunting alone means you will take a lot longer time to level.
Anyways we have a cycle of the same few people recycling the same points again and again. I doubt the majority of the players in the game want this kind of change. Most people are happy with the system right now. the drop system is fine as it is.
The last game we need is a game that promotes griefing. I think we just get a lot more angry people all the time, if people constantly losing their important stuff. PvP will be alot more serious, and I don't want to see that for the sake of preserving fun, I don't play a game to get pissed off.
If you want to test this out, I hope they leave uranus alone. We have a good pvp, and I hate to ruin it completely with griefers. Losing a belt in a camped MB gr is annoying enough as it is.
I'm sure this thing works out, but I just think i'm too carebear to become hardcore. I only play this game occasionally in weekends for pvp, and I am happy to have finished characters that I can use readily. I don't want to have to spend the next weekend trying to get a new RoG because I lost it to a sync. Would you? I'm sure hardcore players have time to cap hunting aggies, and build one rare after another rare, but to me I don't want to have to go back constantly.
I think you will just make a system that pisses people off. I still think Neocron lost players because it promoted so much griefing, at the early times it was okay because most people were newbies and could afford to lose their weapons, but in the times where everyone used rares its a bad idea in my opinion.
You can increase the drop rate, it helps sure, but I will still have to go out on a boring warbot hunting mission, and I would still have to trade, and go through 2-3 CS to get a good one. All the time knowing that somebody else is laughing at me, using my own weapon. I prefer if my characters were not in risk. but thats just me i'm a carebear pvper.
Psycho Killa
21-06-04, 18:37
Its not about carebear shit, we not play a pure shooter here. Even if i think Benjie and PK not see that this way.
I don't see this as solely a pvp game, its a game that revolves heavily around pvp.
I do not want dropped items and no safe slot because I want to grief the shit out of people. I want it because THE GAME WAS ORIGINALY PLAYED THAT WAY and you know what in all aspects it was 100 times better. It was more exciting when there was pvp going on. Its more exciting pvm even.
What do we lose now when we die? A few minutes time?
Sounds to me like your the ones who want to play quake except with a couple minute spawn time. What is death in an mmorpg without penalty?
I don't see this as solely a pvp game, its a game that revolves heavily around pvp.
I do not want dropped items and no safe slot because I want to grief the shit out of people. I want it because THE GAME WAS ORIGINALY PLAYED THAT WAY and you know what in all aspects it was 100 times better. It was more exciting when there was pvp going on. Its more exciting pvm even.
What do we lose now when we die? A few minutes time?
Sounds to me like your the ones who want to play quake except with a couple minute spawn time. What is death in an mmorpg without penalty?
point me to one good MMORPG which gives some stupid penalty when you die. Most games don't give you penalties for dying period. EQ, AO, FF, SWG you get to keep your items. Apart from UO which was "the griefing game". People don't play a game to get grief. I want to fight in pvp and know I won't be losing something serious, otherwise why risk trying to take an op when outnumbered 4 to 1?
The fact is people die to stupid things like sync and lag, "especially" in Neocron. I wouldn't mind if we tried this method for 2 weeks or so and see how people feel. I think KK changed it because it was too much.
Doc Holliday
21-06-04, 19:49
Eh? I think more than 20% of the population PvP.
yeah because theres not alot left no more. :lol:
point me to one good MMORPG which gives some stupid penalty when you die. Most games don't give you penalties for dying period. EQ, AO, FF, SWG you get to keep your items. Apart from UO which was "the griefing game". People don't play a game to get grief. I want to fight in pvp and know I won't be losing something serious, otherwise why risk trying to take an op when outnumbered 4 to 1?
Those MMORPGs are nothing like Neocron, so how can you realistically compare to them? EQ, FF, SWG, all turn based combat, restricted PvP, they're completely different. Obviously you didn't like UO, but there were a whole trainload of people who did, because they had something to actually gain or lose in a fight, other than 5 minutes.
You ask why do newbies keep leaving the game? If they can't handle death, then NC simply isn't for them, because it's a fact of life, if you play Neocron, you will die a lot, simply because the whole idea is that everyone's fighting, and somebody has to lose. You get someone who's used to nothing but mindless levelling in EQ, comes to Cron, levels up to use a little Uzi, takes his LE out, shows off his Uzi in OZ to some other random guy he meets who happens to be from an enemy faction. He looks at his Uzi with beady eyes, thinks "I want that!", so he kills him. That's what NC is supposed to be about. Clearly the average EQ player isn't going to like that. That doesn't mean you should base the game around catering for a player base it was never intended for.
If you really believe CRP is the only place to get XP, you need to explore more. Not only are there 3 Chaos Caves, but you can get fantastic CON XP in Point Red Storage, APUs can get shitloads of XP solo in El Farid Village (that's where I levelled mine, barely any cave runs), hybrids too, get a PPU with antipoison sanct and go to Graves or Swamp Caves, do Graves solo if you're a droner. Snipe WBs as a rifle Spy. There are so many easy ways to level in NC, if you're one of the mindless drones who believes in nothing but CRP, then frankly you deserve to get PKd every time you come out of the cave for being so ignorant.
So what if people really get angry? You know what separates a great game from a good game? Emotions. The very best games can make you feel happy, sad, disappointed, overjoyed, scared, excited, all of those. Since belt drops came in it's been stale. I don't get the same adrenaline rushes I used to get in a 1v3 fight or even back in the very early retail days when I used to get chased across the map by people like Starkes.
As everyone keeps saying, tech part drop increase would be essential. The side benefits of this are that new players don't have to work so hard for rares, more rares circulate because people drop them, so all those spares in clan cabs will come out, all those stashes of tech parts which people can't be arsed to trade will suddenly open up because now they have to trade for spares. Result is a price plummet. Sort out the economy, sort out all those rich players who never lose any cash because they never lose anything which costs more than a few k to replace, all in a couple of easy steps, and make PvP more exciting on top. Or, stick with the current 'carebear' system, which is stale, boring, stagnates the economy, and makes the highest rung of PvP stupidly far away from a new player.
Everyone needs to drop the reliance on rares anyway.
Rares should be rare, both in game and in combat.
With the new rules being talked about here:
1. You would guage the weapon on the conflict. You rolling out into a situation where you will likely get killed a few times? Bring a 5 slot TPC instead of a CS. If you are superbad and what to prove it to everyone, bring a CS and dare them to try and take it off of you.
2. SlotEnhancers being easily found means you can more easily slot TPCs and EPRs and the other non-rares.
3. Honor may come back into the game. It used to be there- as others pointed out, in even combat, you would OFTEN have people returning dropped weapons. Dont count on this one though.
4. Combat would last longer. The non-rares do less damage, so you would have combat last longer. This would be a good thing or a bad thing depending on who you are.
5. The end-game PvP becomes more accessible to non-capped players. If suddenly you can be viable in PvP without capped Str and a CS, then more people could participate in PvP without spending as much time on the levelling treadmill. Plus you dont have to earn millions to get a good weapon. Get a TPC BP or two, buy an illegal off someone, and you are good to go. This would also decrease the value of MC5 chips, perhaps bringing prices down to more reasonable levels.
I'm all for the start of retail drop rules and drop rates.As far as the specialization goes I could care less as thats what they have balanced the classes on.I'd hate to have to wait another 2 years till they get the balance as good as it is now although it is not perfect but its the closest it has ever been.
I miss the old days of seeing a enimies name on local and the rush kick in.Cause you knew one of you was gonna die and drop something for the winner,and it would not be there when you got back to where you died.The odds were pretty good that you would not drop your weapon as long as you only carried one rare on you.(1 in 10 isnt bad as it was only items in your quick belt that dropped no inv stuff)
And there was always the option if you were getting ganked in a fight and you felt you had no chance of winning to stop trying to fight and put your valuables in you inv so they wouldnt drop.As far as GR camping to avoid loosing valuables all you had to do was put them in your inventory before gr'n.Not like you can use most of the stuff you would be worried about loosing straight after gr'n anyway.To be honest it was safer to gr to anywhere back then than it is today with the belt drops cause every thing you carry but slot 1 has a chance to drop in a belt.
And as others have stated rares were not that big of a deal back then you could replace anything in a day maybe 2.Go out hunt wb's for a few hours come home with shitloads of techs get them id'd and trade for what you needed.Personally I can remember when my tank needed his first marine,I think it took me less than a day to hunt techs and trade to get one and since techs were abundent(sp?) they were reasonably priced not like saturns fucked up economy look at terminator parts can you say 5 mill each if not more.Thats just insane.
I feel sorry for anyone who has to start playing this game with the droprates and economy as they are now.
Result is a price plummet. Sort out the economy, sort out all those rich players who never lose any cash because they never lose anything which costs more than a few k to replace, .
It will also stop people paying over the top thus inflating the economy.
Nobody would pay millions for a weapon with the thought that they could loose it so easily.
I feel sorry for anyone who has to start playing this game with the droprates and economy as they are now.
Thats what I feel. Like Scikar said, Neocron is *really *stale as it is now. It's gone way past it's sell by date, and DoY won't fix this. It's lost it's freshness that the old drop rules allowed.
I think the poll results are irrelevant due to the playerbase being mostly new and only partly old (knowing how it was like before the new rules). I wish for the hell of me that I made it public so we could see who voted for the current drop rules, and who voted for the old ones.
Read it. Thought it through. 25 Hack for Belts would be great. That's a very good point with the chiseling away at the pure skill typed specialization. All 120 items would be more of a necessity hence more rare part hunting/trading/importance. It seems right now, most end-game players can cap many stats on rares right after build, without the stats even being 120.
Can we also get belt drops turned back on at OPs? kthx :D
Yeah. This economy is so fucked... just so fucked.
FireWarrior
21-06-04, 23:27
Seems like a shitload of the arguments here are flawed to hell and back, but I'm not gonna start pointing fingers.
I played in beta, I was there when quickbelts didn't exist and guees what? I hated it. Alot of what you are discussing might be good and true, but it's too damn late. With the ridiculous amounts of damage rares can do there is no time for a casual (or hardcore for that matter) player to put his weapons into his inventory before getting ripped apart by the capped tank with his 5-slot CS or the APU with his HL.
A change like that might bring back the old days, but...
A) It's not gonna bring the old players back, little (if anything) will do that. Regardless of why they left.
B) The transition phase (from capped players and massive clans holding huge stockpiles of rare to your ideal situation with low prices and readily available rares for non-clanned [or small clans]) would be hell. People would get ganked left and right, loose the items they had worked for and by the time your ideal world was there, even more players would have left and NC would be dead except (generalizing a bit here, bear with me) for the massive clans with the huge stockpiles.
After reading through the entire thread I'm almost starting to come around on the matter, but I still think (based on my own experiences from beta) that reverting to "no quickbelts and no safeslots" would be a mistake. Perhaps create a direct meaning between quickbelt difficulty and SL? A runner with SL 50 that gets killed will drop a belt with the general difficulty of 50, while a negative SL runner will get hacked as long as the hacker can operate a hack tool... More consequences for lower-SL runners and the average difficulty of quickbelt hacking gets lowered at the same time.
Keep discussing though... Just give it to Pluto server for testing purposes before rolling it on the busy (relatively speaking) servers like Saturn. :D
NOTE: Did any of all that crap I just wrote make any sense whatsoever?
A change like that might bring back the old days, but...
A) It's not gonna bring the old players back, little (if anything) will do that. Regardless of why they left.
B) The transition phase (from capped players and massive clans holding huge stockpiles of rare to your ideal situation with low prices and readily available rares for non-clanned [or small clans]) would be hell. People would get ganked left and right, loose the items they had worked for and by the time your ideal world was there, even more players would have left and NC would be dead except (generalizing a bit here, bear with me) for the massive clans with the huge stockpiles.I have to disagree on a few points here.
First, the casual runner who gets shot in the back. Simply put, if he's just casually out hunting WBs alone with nobody else around, then all he has to do is take an Epic weapon with him. The Epics generally aren't great for PvP, but they're great for hunting mobs, the general trait amongst them being good range combined with good damage. Besides that, the idea helps casual players get rares more easily. If every WB is dropping 1 and 2 techs like they used to, if he hunts for a couple of hours and kills 20 WBs, that can be 20-40 techs. Certainly plenty for trading up a rare.
It might seem that there would be a lot of rares about then, but there's nothing stopping KK from increasing the decay rate. Bearing in mind I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who's ever completely broken a rare, with the exception of melee weapons.
Second, bringing the old players back. A lot of people left because NC became stale and lost the old excitement. This alone might not bring them back, but combined with DoY, it certainly would be tempting. It would essentially bring back early retail but with less bugs, more features, better balance, and better graphics.
Finally, I'm not quite sure what you mean by the transition phase. On the one hand, people stand to lose more weapons. On the other, those weapons are easier to replace. Now think about it for a second. As long as the rate at which someone can obtain new weapons matches the average rate that they will drop them, they will be happy, correct? At the same time, PvP just got more exciting, because people stand to gain and lose items. And as a bonus, new players get onto the ladder more easily, in fact, they should be able to build up a few rares just by normal levelling off fire mobs or WBs like they used to - none of the current world of capped Tanks still with TPCs because they just can't get hold of any CS parts. So from my POV, it's win-win-win all round.
EDIT: Though didn't you drop your whole QB in beta?
umm maybe you need to realise you guys are proposing a lot of changes to be made. KK can't even add a rare item run, you think they can do all this?
Make safe slot unsafe isn't that annoying coding?
Make belts into hacking of 50ish or 15 as benjie proposed
increased drop rate, they can't even control or balance drop rate now.
I think its poinltess to go halfway, if you want to do it i'd go full way, btw scikar I was one of the longest and oldest baja players in UO, and I griefed people, I was a PK by trade, and looted reagents off dead corpsed I killed with energy bolt. Little did I know the pain I was delivering to those victims.
I agree i'm over exagerrating a bit here, but any move towards a more grief based game is a bad move, and I don't care if you find it fun to hurt other players really, and yes scikar I do feel that there is a need to cater for those players who don't enjoy that adrenaline rush you are talking about, why do you think Neocron is such a failure? It doesn't cater to the needs of a normal MMORPG player, I still feel a rush of excitement when i'm fighting other players, and the people who propose the qb system were pvpers to begin with.
and no I don't think a game should make you feel sad, or angry thats not a point of the game, these emotions can be slight for a game, from plot, rp or story or just hating another clan, but as I said people make real attachments with their stuff.
As with the MMORPG thing I was refering to psy's post as she said whats the point of a MMORPG if you don't get a penalty when you die. So I thought she meant MMORPG in general.
You see i'm not saying it won't be fun, it will be but i'm looking at it from a darker perspective, on paper it sounds, good heck on paper it sounds good to have characters deleted when they die, but in reality people don't go easy on things like this it isn't about rp, it is about encouraging griefing. Not "I want that gun", but lets have fun "griefing, making fun of people and farming items at the gr" Like it or not people level in MB bunker, and CRP. I hate having to go to obscene places alone because I am afraid of getting pked, and why can't we have hunting zones to be hunting zones.
The sad fact is people find joy in griefing other players, and it is fun for men to step down on other men, and the fact is I am a PRO CA player and this is the last thing I want. I want to wander around in crp looking for a fight, even if i'm outnumbered 6 to 1 I won't lose anything. See my point? RP prespective would be group up: group up with who? should I follow the bandwagon and switch factions to enjoy a less fun life? I know the feelings og getting griefed sucks, and I also know griefing other people is great fun. I've experienced both sides to understand this. I am a long time MMORPG players and have players and beta tested many games, even "the realm" and the real old MUDs.
Sure scikar a good game induces emotions, but this is for the story and plot, not when you make personal attachments. Give me one advantage of getting depressed, in life because of getting griefed or losing something I have a real attachment to. This is different then watching a sad story unfold, in a single player game, or hunting in the dark in an FPS. The thing is in a MMORPG people make personal attachments to things.
You guys need to view this in a more darker and serious manner, then the innocent and joyful view you are taking now. I see why its an attractive idea, but I think the darker side of this idea is more disastrous, to be fair I didn't play during the "golden age". So really I don't know if this will work out its only speculation, but the people left behind might be "the only people" who liked that sort of system, while the rest have left already, and never got a chance to experience what IMO is a better system now.
btw this is a perfectly good idea, if the player base wasn't so low.
umm maybe you need to realise you guys are proposing a lot of changes to be made. KK can't even add a rare item run, you think they can do all this?
Make safe slot unsafe isn't that annoying coding?
Make belts into hacking of 50ish or 15 as benjie proposed
increased drop rate, they can't even control or balance drop rate now.
They coded safeslots, belts and decreased drops in, I'm sure they're perfectly capable of coding them back out. You forget that they've coded an entire MMORPG.
I think its poinltess to go halfway, if you want to do it i'd go full way, btw scikar I was one of the longest and oldest baja players in UO, and I griefed people, I was a PK by trade, and looted reagents off dead corpsed I killed with energy bolt. Little did I know the pain I was delivering to those victims.
I agree i'm over exagerrating a bit here, but any move towards a more grief based game is a bad move, and I don't care if you find it fun to hurt other players really, and yes scikar I do feel that there is a need to cater for those players who don't enjoy that adrenaline rush you are talking about, why do you think Neocron is such a failure? It doesn't cater to the needs of a normal MMORPG player, I still feel a rush of excitement when i'm fighting other players, and the people who propose the qb system were pvpers to begin with.
No, I have to disagree here. Neocron is not a normal MMORPG. It's a failure because it tried to be. Originally, Neocron was unique. Then it attracted a bunch of players from other MMORPGs. Suddenly, they find themselves being shot by people! And dying! And losing stuff! And they didn't like it. So the forum was full of whiners, and drops etc. were nerfed. The result? All the things which make NC unique, the whole atmosphere, started to erode, which meant all the hardcore players suddenly found themselves playing a dull game, and left. NC will never do EQ as well as EQ did. It will never do UO as well as UO did. It will never be Planetside. It is Neocron, and should stay that way. Comparisons to other MMORPGs are utterly irrelevant, because they really are completely different. EQ etc cater for different players, simple as that.
and no I don't think a game should make you feel sad, or angry thats not a point of the game, these emotions can be slight for a game, from plot, rp or story or just hating another clan, but as I said people make real attachments with their stuff.
Of course it should! When a game is based around PvP, how can you possibly make both the winner and loser happy without making it stale? The answer is, you can't. In PvP, there's always a loser, they just have to realise that sometimes you lose, sometimes you win. If people can't take losing then tough shit. They need to learn to accept that you can't win all the time.
As with the MMORPG thing I was refering to psy's post as she said whats the point of a MMORPG if you don't get a penalty when you die. So I thought she meant MMORPG in general.
She was referring to the fact that in NC you die, and in 5 minutes you are in exactly the same position again, except occasionally you have to shell out a few k for some armor (assuming you're not a PPU anyway).
You see i'm not saying it won't be fun, it will be but i'm looking at it from a darker perspective, on paper it sounds, good heck on paper it sounds good to have characters deleted when they die, but in reality people don't go easy on things like this it isn't about rp, it is about encouraging griefing. Not "I want that gun", but lets have fun "griefing, making fun of people and farming items at the gr" Like it or not people level in MB bunker, and CRP. I hate having to go to obscene places alone because I am afraid of getting pked, and why can't we have hunting zones to be hunting zones.
That's not a darker perspective, it's (though I hate to use the word) a carebear perspective. That's what happens in other MMORPGs. It's against the entire atmosphere that NC is built around. I play NC because it's the one MMORPG I've tried that actually feels like it makes sense. MMORPGs are open ended games, where the key is freedom. The idea that the player community polices itself is key, instead of having thirty billion rules with a thousand GMs to enforce them and ban anyone who steps out of line. That's why safe zones are complete bollocks. People greif other now because they can hide - you have to go one way or the other. Either enforce everything strictly, or enforce nothing and let player enforcers do it in charcater and in game. KK took a step halfway with belt drops, SL, and safezones - and look what's happened.
The sad fact is people find joy in griefing other players, and it is fun for men to step down on other men, and the fact is I am a PRO CA player and this is the last thing I want. I want to wander around in crp looking for a fight, even if i'm outnumbered 6 to 1 I won't lose anything. See my point? RP prespective would be group up: group up with who? should I follow the bandwagon and switch factions to enjoy a less fun life? I know the feelings og getting griefed sucks, and I also know griefing other people is great fun. I've experienced both sides to understand this. I am a long time MMORPG players and have players and beta tested many games, even "the realm" and the real old MUDs.
What would you lose exactly? I tell you now, I would trade my first CS, a weapon I've had for months and months now, and would hate to lose, if I could get the old atmosphere back and the old adrenaline rushes. You wouldn't even struggle alone. Have you ever gone to CRP back in the days when it was packed with TG and seen how long you can live for and how many people you can kill? I used to go there all the time as CA on Saturn. As a Tank, with no shelter, no stealth, I just took my time, watched my back, and picked fights with lone enemies. When groups came round with PPUs, I hid. It was the most fun I've had in a long time. All you have to accept is that it's a different style of playing, you have to engage more with the game. You can't just mindlessly blast away at mobs all day.
I'm sorry that you can't comprehend the notion of evil players. You say you were a greifer in UO, but that's certainly not the impression I get. Surely you understand therefore that even if people can't directly greif someone, they'll find other ways? All those people who kill newbies in aggie cellars yet hide in P2 all day long are shining examples. As long as they can do anything to another player, they'll greif them. Item drops won't make a difference.
Sure scikar a good game induces emotions, but this is for the story and plot, not when you make personal attachments. Give me one advantage of getting depressed, in life because of getting griefed or losing something I have a real attachment to. This is different then watching a sad story unfold, in a single player game, or hunting in the dark in an FPS. The thing is in a MMORPG people make personal attachments to things.
Easy. When my Spy, my very first character, used to use rifles, I spent ages hunting and eventually got myself a Pain Easer. I went up to MB to hunt some WBs. With 15 minutes of arriving, Starkes came along, killed me, stole it, and started laughing when he saw it was still 119/120 condition. So I was obviously pretty disappointed. Did I quit? Did I fuck. I hunted for 3 hours solid, got a bunch of parts, ID'd them, traded for another Pain Easer, went out to MB, and hounded his ass. That was NC when it was fun. Today, I'd go get poked, 5 minutes later, I'm back up as if nothing ever happened. I don't feel anything at all. Revenge is sweet, but there's no revenge in Neocron any more.
You guys need to view this in a more darker and serious manner, then the innocent and joyful view you are taking now. I see why its an attractive idea, but I think the darker side of this idea is more disastrous, to be fair I didn't play during the "golden age". So really I don't know if this will work out its only speculation, but the people left behind might be "the only people" who liked that sort of system, while the rest have left already, and never got a chance to experience what IMO is a better system now.
btw this is a perfectly good idea, if the player base wasn't so low.
I think it's pretty odd to say it wouldn't work when you never saw it first hand TBH. The whole 'people would get greifed and quit' idea is completely refuted by the fact that that's the way the game was, people weren't greifed any more than they are now, but they didn't quit. Steal someone's CS today and damn right he won't be happy. But why? One, he's gonna take months getting another, Two, he has no chance of getting it back, or even getting anything remotely close to it in value. Under this system he wouldn't be nearly so disappointed, because One, he can get a new one in a couple of days hunting, and Two, he can easily go hound the guy who stole it all day long until he gets compensation.
everyone who says that this is a Carebear game and that you should make it so there is no carebears forget that if you got your way who would make your shit?
You would have no weapons at all apart from store bought ones because i doubt a single trader would want to play at all.
Specialisation is good, you shouild not try to get rid of it and make everyone self sufficent.
bad idea.
*chuckles @ Benjie saying poll is irrelevant because it is not going the way you hoped ;)
I agree with your last post scikar to some degree, ignoring the whole "its about me and me only" attitude. I think i'm bending towards lets try it out, but I see myself getting griefed and losing my rare guns due to some stupic sync error. I don't think losing important things to game bugs or error is justfied, from what I have heard the days before it was stupid and a lot of people hated it, thats why it was changed. I wasn't there so you probably understand the situation more.
I have said what I wanted to say and I still to some degree stay on that prespective, but I kinda agree it "might" be a good idea, to make the game more fun after being convinced by people, I still have my doubts on the idea though, and I don't think a lot of players are as hardcore as as play to the "ideology" as you suggest, indeed even with increased drop rates I forsee a lot of trouble, and no doubt people will whine about it, and you will say "carebears leave" then in the end you have maybe 20 players on saturn as dedicated hardcore players who can afford to spend hours on a game.
I can't. also yes scikar I think that this encourages griefing. Griefing in uranus is rare, I never get pked in aggie cellars. In UO it was "the griefing game" the notion of playing evil had lots of good sides indeed, free loot armor weapon everything, free reagents ( so I dont' have to go to 5 stores to find sulphuric acid), free sparring and of course the joy of seeing his ghost and then laughing at him. I also get to use AoE spells without losing reputation.
Weapon drops would be a huge incentive, for people to group up and grief, griefing happens anyway, but i'm saying this "moves the game to more grief play". Maybe you would reconsider it if your spy lost your weapon to a bigger clan who just ganked you out of the gr, then when you tried revenge you get ganked by 6 people, parashocked and killed, and lost your paineaser again. You won't be feeling the sweetness anymore so what now? you going to do it again and lose something else?. I'm saying its not all as good as you think it is, and the poll is showing that.
on the other hand if I was killed by a ganking group now. I can be back up soon and come back and try my luck at 6 people, if I die its fine if I win I get revenge. Now i don't want to lose my pain easer to the ganking group, get one built over 2 weeks then come back and get owned again, if I win I get their stuff, but my chances of winning? low.
anyways i'm a carebear, and I know a lot of pvpers will think twice before saying yes to this idea,, so they are all carebears huh? I guess the poll says more then half the people are carebears. Maybe we should all leave?
anyways i'm a carebear, and I know a lot of pvpers will think twice before saying yes to this idea,, so they are all carebears huh? I guess the poll says more then half the people are carebears. Maybe we should all leave?
Not really. It just shows that NC has alienated the original playerbase, whom it suited brilliantly, and is now left with a collapsing poulation of players who won't support changing the game back to how it was, but at the same time, the direction they want the game to go in leads it directly into path of MMORPGs with which it can't compete.
everyone who says that this is a Carebear game and that you should make it so there is no carebears forget that if you got your way who would make your shit?
You would have no weapons at all apart from store bought ones because i doubt a single trader would want to play at all.You are flat wrong.
Otherwise, how did the game ever survive beta and early retail? Cause beta and early retail had larger populations and it was less carebearish than now. As the game became more carebearish, perhaps coincidentally, populations fell.
Specialisation is good, you shouild not try to get rid of it and make everyone self sufficent.Hasty Generalization. By advocating that the game be dangerous, that doesn't mean that everyone must be self-sufficient. Like I said above, this is empirically proven by the early stages of this game.
You can perhaps argue that its too late now, and that a change wouldnt be successful. But I think you are a bit off to suggest that people would have to fight with storebought weapons.
You are flat wrong.
Otherwise, how did the game ever survive beta and early retail? Cause beta and early retail had larger populations and it was less carebearish than now. As the game became more carebearish, perhaps coincidentally, populations fell.Hasty Generalization. By advocating that the game be dangerous, that doesn't mean that everyone must be self-sufficient. Like I said above, this is empirically proven by the early stages of this game.
I think you'll find you are wrong, people left the game for other reasons. I have never seen a 'I'm leaving because this game is carebear' thread.
Of course Beta is going to have larger populations, duh its free!
Then some stay on for retail, but they leave because they decide that they are not enjoying it, don't want to pay or whatever. And we all know how good CDV were at marketing the game so populations never increased.
Nothing at all to do with the game being changed into a 'carebear' game :rolleyes:
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