Monks in Review (16.06.04): Past, Present & Future

[Siygess]

The purpose of this thread is to discuss everything to do with the Psi Monk class - it's strengths, it's shortcomings, where it came from, where it's going, and perhaps more importantly - is that what you want? This isn't just a thread for balancing the classes, it's about what it will take to keep you playing this class for the next 12 months. Obviously this thread is inteded for people who play Psi Monk characters, but everyone is welcome to comment as long as that comment is constructive and justified :D

I'd really like someone from KK to contribute to this thread and comment on the "official" view of the class, but I doubt that will happen unless we get the discussion going. So lets start talking, and we'll see if KK takes notice :)

Mods - Any chance this thread could be sticky-ed?

[Tank!]

I guess to start everything off, I am glad that the Psi Monk has come from the position of complete weakling in beta to an important component on the battlefield.

One major thing I agree with is the rebalancing to get rid of hybrids. As much as people want to be hybrid, you are better off going APU or PPU and they make it show. Though many hate this, its a step in the right direction to create class inter-dependancy that will promote teamwork amongst clans and factions.

As for a future to the monks, it would be nice to fix some spells (visual bugs with the ressurection, maybe re-work the effect all together?) and also elaborate on their effects to make them more feared and ominous(have a thundercloud form and create multiple electric bolts for the energy barrel?). PSIs themselves are supposed to be superior beings that are untrusted by the public. Creating some more elaborate spells by adding to their visual effects would be a start. One thing I would definately want changed is the spell sounds, the parashock sound makes me want to stab my ears with a sharpened stick!

Thats about all I can think of....

[IceStorm]

INT gain. Increase INT gain.

[Archeus]

Get PSI resist working and more spells.

[YoDa-UK]

My view on monks, since Jan 2002 when i first played a hybrid monk called "yodian" on pluto.

Back then they was powerful, but mine was crap coz i didnt know jack shit about setups, but i would say a hybrid monk in those days was extremely good, a viable class to play in all areas of the game.

As time moved on KK pushed on us the idea of single monk classes the "apu/ppu" type grew untill in the end the hybrids got major hits against them, to the point where we stand today where they are next to useless in most areas of the game.

What we have left is the ppu/apu monks, now playing a near capped APU these days i have made it for one purpose and only one, outpost fighting, there is not really much else i want todo with that monk, i enjoy killing other people fast, i'm needed at the top lvl to take out enemy ppu's, and there my purpose ends, and without me or another apu on my side, the enemy will most of the time win.

The ppu on the other hand is a class that is everyones bitch, their sole purpose is to support everyone else, without a ppu everyone dies, against mobs or enemy players at some point.

Its been said about removing foriegn cast S/D to help balance PvP, while i don't think that would help, i do think there is to much reliance on PPU's and with that APU's also to debuff the PPU.

Hybrids was at least killable with the right weapon, but now its not just a weapon you need to remove a PPU or APU from the field, now you must be a APU and near capped to be any use.

I think a while back the game become Monk'cron, and its true and i myself also played a part in that, i've played both classes and tbh don't really enjoy them fully, they are a means to an end, to win against your enemy with max power and least amount of effort.

Maybe they should have rethought the PPU role, not made it so dependent for others, maybe the hybrids of old should just have had their power on spells reduced making them a little easier to kill and then left as they was after that.

Why do we need debuffing spells, why do we need cath sanc, most of the spells added to the PPU and APU class over the past year have been aimed at bringing down the other type of monk.

Where do we go from here?

Well APU is next to useless on their own, but with a PPU and they take out pretty much everyone else, even when outnumbered, the APU range on weapons is terrible now, considering they are a class that has little to no defense and yet now need to be almost on top of someone to hit them is just stupid.

The PPU ? well my own view is Holy Heal is to powerful, it should be lowered when cast on others, like S/D are right now, foriegn cast HH would certainly help a lot in a battle, coz we have all been there when you almost kill someone only to see the heal effect bring them to full health after all your hard work. There is to much "we can't do this, we need a PPU" in the game right now.

[Original monk]

what about hybrids ? :P

[Clownst0pper]

Remove resist psi

Have INT gain equal to any other secondry skill

Give hybrids there own spells and implants - effectivly a new class

Reduce the mana cost of all barrels and increase there ROF

Increase the damage of holy pestilence and change the 3d image of thunderstorm to that of holy energy barrel

Give monks an eye, it is after all how they aim

Add a new rare xray beam

As for PPU's, remove damage boost and parashock and lower the use of shelter and holy heal.

[hinch]

bring back old hybrids with the current anti monk weapondry everywhere they would barely be overpowered anymore.

tone down defences slightly ie: remove about 10% of the effectiveness and bang balanced monks.

[netster]

Get PSI resist working and more spells.
more spells ? i just would like to see a rare PSI Attack (the forcedamage one)

[Scikar]

Bearing in mind the 'anti-monk weaponry everywhere' is spirit modded SH, which is easy to counter for a PPU and therefore would be for an old hybrid, and antibuff, which of course needs another monk, I think that's a bit wide of the mark TBH.

What about making all PPUs hybrid, and removing level 3 and holy buffs? Or perhaps drop level 3 buffs down to the blessed area of spells, and bring level 2 buffs down to 35 PSI for PEs to use? From there, it would be much easier to balance those hybrids, and APUs could possibly be kept in. The main point is it balances hybrids and PPUs together at the same time. If the new hybrids are too weak/strong then it would be easy to boost them only without affecting APUs, unlike the current system where not boosting APUs generally means boosting PPUs and vice versa when dealing with hybrids.

[ezza]

i played hybrid from beinging of retail from my original monk Richard Deckard then my second hybrid Ezza.

they were fun back then, but became vastly overpowered.

amongst the many nerfs came the APUS and PPUS, i went apu after i was unhappy with the overpowering of the hybrids, then found it was to easy to kill people with apus i tried hybrid again, but at that point in time it was too gimpy so i deleted my monk.

as i stated in my hybrid monk thread, i would of rather seen the hybrids balanced and not see the apu and ppu brough into the game.

Hinch, even with the anti shelter type stuff in game, your talking about 2 classes, the apu and the lucky rifle spies who have hold of a spirit mod and ammo.

rifles spies without, or pistol spies, tanks, Pes would all not be able to do that, and with the hybrid back as you want(ie overpowered) you would still be back taking out several people at once with or without anyskills

[[TgR]KILLER]

Give monks an eye, it is after all how they aim

As for PPU's, remove damage boost and parashock and lower the use of shelter and holy heal.

on the first.. i just gotta make the comment..

monks aim ? :wtf:

on the second.. don't remove dmg boost :/ maybe for PPU's but we PE's use it a hell of alot esp in caves or fighting vs high level mobs..

[Archeus]

Build resist psi to effect spell effects positive/negative. So a high psi resist will negate para/damage boost, cause little effect from APU attacks as well stop soul clusters attacking. But at the same time the person can't take heals/shields. Basically allowing people to play as monk killers.

[YoDa-UK]

Hmm never thought about removing lvl 3 buffs from the game, interesting thought.

I would remove ppu/apu from the game completely, allow the hybrid class but tone down the spells they can use, it was overpowered to see a monk use a HL and a HH in one go, then when anti buff was brought in, those same monks was just debuffing other hybrids for the same effect we have the apu doing now to the ppu.

All thats been done is the hybrid was split into to groups, it didn't need that, it needed a balance to that one class, but i don't think old hybrids would ever come back, and tbh they shouldn't.

[hinch]

or perhaps a tank with a dev or a tank with a cs or a melee tank

since a hybrid wouldnt be able to use the high lvl anti por's and certainly couldnt outheal a cs or any melee tank with the reduction in holy spells you all seem to be overlooking i suggested also.

and then your looking at any pe/spy with a libby or a rolh or rog since the -frc on a hybrid and the reduction in holy spells would mean they couldnt out heal that


your all missing the point i said LOWER HOLY DEFENCES not to blessed lvl but somewhere half way between current and blessed is at present.

then re adjust the spells so that only pures can cast the anti shelt/def spells and only pures can cast the anti port and para and db spells so hybrids would rely on drugs

[ezza]

or perhaps a tank with a dev or a tank with a cs or a melee tank

since a hybrid wouldnt be able to use the high lvl anti por's and certainly couldnt outheal a cs or any melee tank with the reduction in holy spells you all seem to be overlooking i suggested also.

and then your looking at any pe/spy with a libby or a rolh or rog since the -frc on a hybrid and the reduction in holy spells would mean they couldnt out heal that


your all missing the point i said LOWER HOLY DEFENCES not to blessed lvl but somewhere half way between current and blessed is at present.

then re adjust the spells so that only pures can cast the anti shelt/def spells and only pures can cast the anti port and para and db spells so hybrids would rely on drugs
if it was lowered to a resonable level then ya.

but i just cant help getting the feeling you would only get it reduced so much but still enable you to be overpowered :lol:

[Scikar]

or perhaps a tank with a dev or a tank with a cs or a melee tank

since a hybrid wouldnt be able to use the high lvl anti por's and certainly couldnt outheal a cs or any melee tank with the reduction in holy spells you all seem to be overlooking i suggested also.

and then your looking at any pe/spy with a libby or a rolh or rog since the -frc on a hybrid and the reduction in holy spells would mean they couldnt out heal that


your all missing the point i said LOWER HOLY DEFENCES not to blessed lvl but somewhere half way between current and blessed is at present.

then re adjust the spells so that only pures can cast the anti shelt/def spells and only pures can cast the anti port and para and db spells so hybrids would rely on drugs

It would take a lot more than a 10% reduction to stop those hybrids from being able to outheal CS. Blessed defence hybrids can already almost outheal CS, certainly when they keep moving. You're suggesting having hybrids with more defence than that, and what offence? At least energy beam? The current HL/e beam hybrids are restricted to TL25 shelter and they're balanced, you're proposing fairly similar offence with more defence than a blessed hybrid gets?

[J. Folsom]

or perhaps a tank with a dev or a tank with a cs or a melee tank

since a hybrid wouldnt be able to use the high lvl anti por's and certainly couldnt outheal a cs or any melee tank with the reduction in holy spells you all seem to be overlooking i suggested also.

and then your looking at any pe/spy with a libby or a rolh or rog since the -frc on a hybrid and the reduction in holy spells would mean they couldnt out heal that


your all missing the point i said LOWER HOLY DEFENCES not to blessed lvl but somewhere half way between current and blessed is at present.

then re adjust the spells so that only pures can cast the anti shelt/def spells and only pures can cast the anti port and para and db spells so hybrids would rely on drugsThat actually doesn't sound half bad to be honest. It's definitely worth testing out.

[Liebestoter]

PPUs making fighting un-fun. Holy Heal outheals most forms of damage you can throw out. Make heals instant, give them longer cast times and maybe make 'em cost more. Don't make psi boosters instant. Lower the effectiveness of Holy protection spells just a bit.

EDIT - Essentially, for a clan like mine where the people playing the PPUs are busy/etc, a single enemy PPU is a frigging death knell. And that's not right.

[Menolak]

I really regret LOM'ing my hybrid's PPU down some, but who knew what the future would bring. I figured the days of 128/63 hybrids like myself (now my rank is much lower) were over forever, and maybe they are...Now I'm capped again, pretty much, I dont really feel like LOM'ing the points back out of APU to put into PPU again...In the days when we were God ( my APU hybrid, Wakeup, was one of the most powerful on Venus, without a doubt),we could ressurect. I really believe that KK should COMPLETELY un-nerf the hybrids...All-powerful hybrids (with no malus) make having 2 classes of monks useless. who needs a PPU when you can do both.
The eye for monks is an interesting idea, but what would it change? Without a targeting reticle, seems kinda pointless, well even more ROF on my HL would be fun, if they had an eye that did that.
I agree with the idea of making the spells graphics and sounds more intimidating, people SHOULD tremble with fear when they see a monk approaching.
As it stands, unless you put everything into your resists, a bad melee tank can take an APU down, and that is complete and utter bullshit. A lot of the time, an APU is useless without a PPU hiding in his asshole, makes more sense to combine the 2 classes. It would also be easier to XP, you wouldn't have to depend on a bunch of ungrateful snots for your XP, and you could actually kill people instead of just rezzing them. Chainkilling is more fun, too...kill.rezz.kill..rezz..kill..rezz.. lol
Plus, holy para+HL is a fun mini-combo....

Bring back the true hybrids!!!!!!!! I'd get another 2 accounts if true hybrids came back.

[hinch]

heres how i think it should be done


hybrids cannot use high lvl rares if they wanna use ppu rares then they can only use max of ebeam if they wanna use apu rares tehy can only usemax of holy def

drop holy def to half way between blessed and current holy.

and heres the KEY thing

make sure hybrids CANNOT run cast any weapon or def spell

[Scikar]

That's basically is the old hybrids after the psi use nerf. All using e beam and holy buffs, not runcasting. They needed more than just a minor tweak to their defence. Again, and I'm obviously going to have to keep repeating this, hybrids with APU rares atm are stuck with TL25 shelter and blessed def, you're suggesting give them blessed shelter, a more effective def and blessed heal? Even if they can't runcast, that's still overpowered.

[Menolak]

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[Menolak]

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Sorry about that post, I didn't mean to interrupt..got stuck on the wrong thread after I linked this thread to the french forum, I didn't notice...If Nidhogg or somebody could make it disappear, that'd be cool.