View Full Version : Private Eyes in Review (16.06.04): Past, Present & Future
The purpose of this thread is to discuss everything to do with the PE class - it's strengths, it's shortcomings, where it came from, where it's going, and perhaps more importantly - is that what you want? This isn't just a thread for balancing the classes, it's about what it will take to keep you playing this class for the next 12 months. Obviously this thread is inteded for people who play PE characters, but everyone is welcome to comment as long as that comment is constructive and justified :D
I'd really like someone from KK to contribute to this thread and comment on the "official" view of the class, but I doubt that will happen unless we get the discussion going. So lets start talking, and we'll see if KK takes notice :)
Mods - Any chance this thread could be sticky-ed?
I'd like to see a couple HC-boosting CPU lines. I'd like to see both an HC version of the Melee Experiencememory line and an HC version of the Berserk line.
It's tough being an HC PE on foot. Even with all my STR in HC, I'm still weak on the HC front. It takes a Beast for me to cap damage on my TL70 Plasma Cannon. Relying on Beast isn't much of an answer, unfortunately.
Clownst0pper
16-06-04, 11:30
Id like to see Alternative versions of PE implemented, for H-C and Melee, its more than appropriate, perhaps some support PA which gives to psi, this would give them a greater ability to appear more versatile.
The thing with PE's atm, is there dmg/offence, if your having lowtech offence and inturn having huge defence, it takes forever to kill anyone.
Where as high tech, it takes seconds to die, but easier to kill others.
There is no middle ground sadly, which kinda irritates me :mad:
make melee PE's viable with only having to use 1 durg !! pwease? :(
Well, I'd like to see something brought in for Melee and HC PE, especially the HC PE, the HC version of melee chip sounds good...
Personally I'm gonna keep playing Drikie (my main character), because Libby>U and I'm going to start a new Melee PE on Saturn soon hopefully, when my exams are over.
The idea of a Psi PE is interesting, but I just don't think that they have enough Psi to be able to do anything interesting, even if there were PE specific Psi implants, or powerarmours. Though, I suppose that you could have a more PPU specialised PE, which can still do a bit of damage with lowtech.... something like that.
Also: JETPACKS!!!
Sorry.
Predominatly my chars are PEs, i got low tech rifle, high tech and low tech pistols and a MC PE. IMO PE need a little bit of a boost. In op wars a PPU buffed Tank or APU rip up a PPU buffed PE...
1 on 1 if a PE gets the firs coupla shots in he probly win, but he doesnt do the sheer damage needed to take on a tank unless he can preparte before hand ie buff up, if a PE gets jumped by a tank theres no time to get s/d br2/3 and whateva up, your dead...same goes for a APU.
I dont necessarily want them to become more powerful per se (or whateva that word is :D) just a little bit more...usefull maybe? A PE main ability is that he has the 2nd highest dex cap, 2nd highest Str cap, 2nd highest psi cap etc etc. But if you want to be effective in PvP you HAVE to specialise, this is the same for all classes, but even with specialisation, lets say you dont have access to some fancy stuff like Kamis and MC5s, you still dont get get as big a damage out put as the class for that weapon (Spis for rifles, tanks HC etc). All your Dex needs to go into PC or RC and Agility, there little room for Recycling or VHC (unless you can get SA and Kamis etc), Int your gunna need WL and a little of your choosing. Whereas a Spy (for instance) can reach higher WL and RC/PC than a PE, and yet have enough INT and DEX left over for a trade skill/VHC. Again unless your a MC PE.
I like the fact a that a PE can dish out almost as much damage as a SPy of equal lvl without all the fancy chips etc, and can take alot of damage if you spec right.
Id like to see either PEs getting more stuff to do...a role they can perform, atm all the roles they perform can be performed by Tanks/PPUs/SPys
OR
well I dunno....
readin back over this I think i ve just waffled on abou aload of crap lol...n e way it kept me occupied at work for a while...
{edit} how about letting PEs use all ther items that are class only like a PE can wear Tank PA etc, granted this would let them use Stealth again...but the reason it was removed from PEs can still be used by SPies
make melee PE's viable with only having to use 1 durg !! pwease? :(
They are Viable I play one. Paw of tiger should just be lowered one TL.
Melee and HC PEs are both good and dont need boosts. DEX based PEs should be more common anyways.
The thing with PE's atm, is there dmg/offence, if your having lowtech offence and inturn having huge defence, it takes forever to kill anyone.
Where as high tech, it takes seconds to die, but easier to kill others.
There is no middle ground sadly, which kinda irritates me .
Judge and RoG PEs are the middle ground.
Maybe some cool little fun toy for PEs only would be fair but they dont need to be more powerful or have a bigger role in large group pvp. PEs are mainly for solo combat and duels BUT they dont suck in OP wars.
PEs are fine.
I play two of them on Pluto.
Sorry to go OT, but is there somewhere with the new Melee lineup listed? As I'm trying to plan out my Melee PE atm.
Clownst0pper
16-06-04, 11:46
Sorry to go OT, but is there somewhere with the new Melee lineup listed?
Last patch notes at the bottom ;)
Sorry to go OT, but is there somewhere with the new Melee lineup listed? As I'm trying to plan out my Melee PE atm.
hehe Melee PEs rock....theres a website thats great cant remeber the name tho...got synergy in it tho... lemme have a butchers
I loved PEs, but with recent (as in last patch) nerfs to damage of certain weapons, the class has become less fun. And with the removal of stealth, PEs are once again weaker tanks. I'd like to see PEs given access to the "(insert class here) only" items and weapons. If not that, then something else.... anything... but not a jetpack
[TgR]KILLER
16-06-04, 11:57
Hmm PE's.. ME = PE
won't rerole my PE ever. maybe if the server blew up and they lost backups but i don't wanna think about that.. i'll prob be lowtech rifle for ever to.. din't pretty much alot with my PE tho.. but combat wise i'll be lowtech rifle..
Been hightech using a tangent epic rifle + stealth 1 and had hack and was hunting warbots then.. but that was just for a week or so :p been poking Tl 81 and poking TL 115 ( after MC5 came ) several times to.. atm i'm tradeskilling. but as always.. never dit one of those things for more then 2 weeks :p before lomming back to pure combat..
atm i'm tradeskill cause i sucked marjor ass.. after being gone for a bit i totaly lost all skill and din't want to pvp no more.. but blood goes were it can't.. just planning on making myself some new blessed def's shelters and resist boosts.. just got about 50/60 of those bped and parts bought :p
and then gonna repair all imps that gonna need repairs soon cause my rep is pretty high.. but then i gues its back to pure combat.. esp now i got a termi to.. given to me by a very good man ^^ so aint got alot of things i still need.. i meen i got a few mil.. got a termi got a few PE's got a SA moveon fh2 etc.. so what gonna keep me playing.. first off roleplaying but thats not that hard from were i stand.. and well still 1 goal is getting a all arti termi but that gotta wait for a few more months i gues or till they are good and well implented.. and whenever i get bored i just lom to something wierd.. cause whatever people will say.. i still think PE's are JOATs.. we can do alot.. but i gues thats also cause i never realy used stealth for combat or some.. just once to fool around with hunting.. PE's are fun.. they can tradeskill pretty good.. they can combat pretty good.. and i think i typed WAY to much again :lol:
to conclude.. don't do drugs. be smart be clean.. be a pure PE ^^ :lol: :p :D
EDIT:
I loved PEs, but with recent (as in last patch) nerfs to damage of certain weapons, the class has become less fun. And with the removal of stealth, PEs are once again weaker tanks.
stealth whores were lame anyway.. thats what ripped the fun out of it. you hunt somebody and just before you get them they stealth. but alot of the time they were to late with stealthing or just stealthed when the last bullets hit them so you saw a dead body unstealth.
and weaker then tanks ? well no point of going into this discussion again.. but a good PE can own all a good tank can own all a good.. etc etc its all about the skill the people play their chars with.. thats if you are both capped and use your best weapons. cause a PE using a nailgun will ofcourse lose :rolleyes: i think the point was made clear soo many times in events like fight night. or just a good night in neofrag. and there PE's never got to stealth eighter but still could beat tanks.
how about letting PEs use all ther items that are class only like a PE can wear Tank PA etc, granted this would let them use Stealth again...but the reason it was removed from PEs can still be used by SPies
This is something I suggested during the height of the "No-stealth-for-PE's" threads, and its really about class growth - it could prove to be unpopular, but it does make a certain ammount of sense - every class only item becomes "This class only. And PE's". This would mean that the requirements for class only items would need a little more thought, to make it possible for PE's to use the lowest level versions of these items, and the medium level versions if the PE wants to gimp themselves. You could even afford to drop the PE PA (even though I quite like it) and perhaps reduce the reqs on the level 1 and 2 Spy / Tank PA's.
http://nc.synergyxr.net/index.php
thats the site, best resource site imo, tho i dont think all the Melees are updated...
you dont HAVE to take drugs, tho you gimp the stup a bit, Herc 2,3 Moveon and a MArine lets you use a Tai Chi, which currently does more than the BoC did do. Tho i use PPR, Moveon, Marine and Zerk 3, so i drug for the Marine and i drug for BR3
atm im taking a 10min drug for +1 str to get the marine active, if i could wear lvl 1 tank PA, id be laughing :p
Oh and a MC PE is the only way to be a joat, all your Dex and Int are available to do what you want with pretty much
Allowing PEs to use the first H-C and M-C Tank PAs wouldn't be a problem. But if you let them use any PA straight off, all pistol and rifle PEs will use Spy PA. The PE PA is intentionally weaker than the Spy PA, allowing PEs to use the Spy PA would make that completely pointless.
im seeing if i can get a PE into APU/PPU PA 1 :D j/k
But the Spy PA would simply be replacing the PE PA, or alternatively, allowing the PE's to have DEX enhancing PA that penalises PSI or DEX enhancing PA that penalises INT.
But the Spy PA would simply be replacing the PE PA, or alternatively, allowing the PE's to have DEX enhancing PA that penalises PSI or DEX enhancing PA that penalises INT.I invite you to some friendly experimentation on a fictional PE with a spy PA. ;)
Not only are it's bonuses higher then PE PA, it also saves you from having to put points into X-Ray resist, normally the one resist you get highest on a PE.
[TgR]KILLER
16-06-04, 12:19
but most PE's use their psi more then there int imho.. and the combat + is more from spy then PE pa.. and spy PA still has a huge load of xray resist right ? combine that with the con of a PE.. and what you get...
i think the PA's are fine.. tho.. thats just meh..
edit.. as folsom said :x
but the huge XRR coupled with PEs wearing Gamma bones and having High con might make em take too much damage, if my MC PE using full gamma bones Spy PA 1 and a PPR i wouldnt have to spec XRR, Inq 4 helmet trousers and hvy boots, plus medium fire belt i wouldnt have to spec Fire, i dont spec Poison n e way, so all my con could go into NRG/HLT...then i can drug for Heat/Haz/BR3
erm...i like it gimmie gimmie :p
They are Viable I play one. Paw of tiger should just be lowered one TL.
Thats what i mean, i have to take 2 drugs just cos im one strength level short.
Lower PoT TL plz :angel:
But the Spy PA would simply be replacing the PE PA, or alternatively, allowing the PE's to have DEX enhancing PA that penalises PSI or DEX enhancing PA that penalises INT.
Using SA, SF, and Exp Ballistic Weapon 3, a PE can use Spy PA2 and Reflex 4 and still use a medium energy protection belt. There's only room for one brain imp afterwards, so PPR/Moveon together isn't possible, but PPR alone is. The small loss in HP is more than made up for by the fact that the PE now doesn't have to spend a single point in xray resist. It results in a far more capable setup than using PE PA 3 for most purposes.
The Spy PA is exactly the reason why the class restrictions were imposed. Spies needed the benefits of their PA, yet giving the same benefits to PEs would be too much, they needed to be separated.
Ok, lets say a PE could use their own PA *and* Spy PA
PE PA 4 , req DEX 105 vs Spy PA 2, req DEX 100 (the PE's couldnt use anything higher than the level 2 PA)
PE PA resists
Frc: 30, Prc 35, Nrg 30
Spy PA resists
Frc: 20, Prc 22, Xray 109
PE PA stat bonuses
DEX: +5
PSI: -4
Spy PA stat bonuses
DEX: +4
INT: -4
PE PA skill bonuses
x-C: +12
Mst: -8
Spy PA skill bonuses
x-C: +12
End: -20
--------
So really, the actual bonuses are about the same.. the only obvious advantage would be that the Spy PA gives a great X Ray resist, but the INT penalty would probably leave 70% of PEs without access to medium belts.
EDIT: Agreed, its still possible to have it, but high stat giving setups are also usually the gimped setups.
Usually yes, because they gimp their defence. But the Xray protection means they don't gimp their defence. I just quickly bashed up a Judge setup, which came to all the normal PE Judge setup standards for no drugs, i.e. 175 P-C, except it had 150+ in every resist and 450 HP. Typical Judge setups without drugs come to 125-135 with that level of HP. On top of that, Spy PE can cast his blessed deflector and heat buff without taking the PA off. Also, with no restrictions, he'd even have stealth on top of that.
[snipped to cut reply length]
So really, the actual bonuses are about the same.. the only obvious advantage would be that the Spy PA gives a great X Ray resist, but the INT penalty would probably leave 70% of PEs without access to medium belts.Synaptic Accelerator and Special Forces give a total of 11 intelligence, then the PA and a reflex booster 4 reduce it by 7, which makes it +4. Add in a Smart-Cybereye 4 for a total of +8, or use an experimental ballistic for a total of +7.
You'd get slightly less x-C that way or slightly less strength, but that could be made up for because you can spec more athletics, allowing you take less agility and more x-C. The strength get's made up for by being able to put more points into fire resist.
Yes, with an INT of 67 they'd be able to use the Stealth I.. but to quote Austin Powers: What's your point, Vanessa? :D
The other three classes will grow in capability and strength in time, and this is no different. Whether or not it is comparable with the other classes increases is another matter :)
EDIT: Actually SA + SF is only 10 INT, but yes, there would still be just enough INT to use the belts :)
Yes, with an INT of 67 they'd be able to use the Stealth I.. but to quote Austin Powers: What's your point, Vanessa? :D
The other three classes will grow in capability and strength in time, and this is no different. Whether or not it is comparable with the other classes increases is another matter :)That was mostly in counter to your ability to use Med. Energy belts. ;)
EDIT: Either way, perhaps if other classes get some kind of large boost to them, otherwise I'll stay with my current no.
I love my PE and would never re-roll him as he has been there from Day one.
I've done the High tech, poking, hacking and low tech PE. I am now happy with a Low Tech PE who can hack anything and still cap his PE.
For the future i just hope to see more than just the PE that i can use. I would like a low tech version of a Sniper rifle thrown in too and the Termi to make an appearence.
I'm happy that PE's can no longer use stealth and even though i used to it was only ever used for getting by mobs or enemies.
For the future i just hope to see more than just the PE that i can use. I would like a low tech version of a Sniper rifle thrown in too and the Termi to make an appearence.From what I've heard from people, the Terminator is now dropped as tech parts, much like the other rares.
Happy hunting. :)
It might be an idea to remove the class restrictions on level 1 tank PAs. That would help both Melee and HC PEs out without the trouble of adding new items or whatever in. However... they wouldn't look so damn cool then. :(
The purpose of this thread is to discuss everything to do with the PE class - it's strengths, it's shortcomings, where it came from, where it's going, and perhaps more importantly - is that what you want? This isn't just a thread for balancing the classes, it's about what it will take to keep you playing this class for the next 12 months. Obviously this thread is inteded for people who play PE characters, but everyone is welcome to comment as long as that comment is constructive and justified :D
I'd really like someone from KK to contribute to this thread and comment on the "official" view of the class, but I doubt that will happen unless we get the discussion going. So lets start talking, and we'll see if KK takes notice :)
Mods - Any chance this thread could be sticky-ed?
This is a good series of threads, I enjoyed the Monk and Tank sections. I don't have PE's or Spies yet, but I will be starting some on Saturn very soon, as such, I'll be reading them all carefully. Keep it up, hopefully they will Sticky it for you. I have a lot of friends on Venus who understand English and speak/write it very well, I'll link it there.
hehe Melee PEs rock....theres a website thats great cant remeber the name tho...got synergy in it tho... lemme have a butchers
http://nc.synergyxr.net/
With regards to PEs and their role...PEs can pretty much be solo gods, dealing out capped slasher damage while still taking more CS bursts and HLs to the head than any other class, due to combined con and psi. In opwars, I'll admit, they don't have much of a place, but they still manage to find a way to be effective on the outer rims of the fights, either picking off stragglers, or pulling one or two enemies away from the main force for a 1 on 1 or 1 on 2. In most of those cases, if the PE is skilled, they should come away from that type of encounter not unscathed, but alive.
Interestingly enough, you can set up a spy to be just like a PE and vice versa...it's just far easier to make the PE completely uber.
With regards to putting a PE in a spy PA....you can sorta do it. The old antirad suits still don't have a class req, so if you can get the dex for it, it'll work for your xray. Dezerter is one PE I've seen running around Pluto with it on, and his con works out really well, however since the antirad suit has no combat bonuses to it, he doesn't have the damage output that others do. I considered it for a while, but thought it wasn't worth the tradeoff. I think most others will find the same.
I wonder how many drugs those really good slasher PEs are using, and then how many drugs the CS tanks they are killing are using....
I wonder how many drugs those really good slasher PEs are using, and then how many drugs the CS tanks they are killing are using....
Does it matter?
Dribble Joy
16-06-04, 19:04
I have been disussing PEs with scikar (read: bickering) recently, concerning the balance of the classes.
My personally wanted to reverse the patch that changed all the weapon dmgs, the balance between the classes was nearly there. The patch was only meant to boost the judge very slightly, the BoH to a viable level and the exec slightly.
Instead, the CS got a 25% dmg increase, the slasher and exec were boosted massively, the RoLH was semi-nerfed and the rifles got fucked up too.
Even after the CS reduction it is still 15% stronger than it was, the average PE taking 60-70 as opposed to 50-60.
The ploiferation of the high tl PEs seems wrong to me, these are not PE weapons, even if they 'gimp' and drug the benefits and proportionate offence/defence ratio is off from the other PEs.
I personally don't want to see any exec/slasher PEs, not because I feel they are overpowered (which they are compared to low tech/tl PEs), but because of the breaking down of the difference between PEs and spies.
I still see spies as high damage, but weak defences, PEs as low offence and high defence (comparitively).
The slasher/exec PEs blur this distinction too much, I don't mind options within the PE's selection of weponry, with a high defence/low offence orhigh offence/low defence choice, Eg. Libby or RoLH, but the tl110+ weapons go too far, and again the difference in defence between a RoLH and a exec PE is minimal, often another drug popped.
Which brings me to another thing.
Drugs.
I don't like them, things would be oh so much simpler without them, in all honesty I would not mind in the slightest if they were removed, at least in principle, tweakage would obviously be needed.
Problem is that they are very usefull for lvling and for example, puting on PA that will stay on with the drug.
How to 'remove' the slasher and Exec for PEs though?
We could say, why not simply reduce the power of them? but what about the spies?
Another problem, the blurring of the spy/PE line is being erroded by the spies with high defences.
Anyway, could we raise the tl of the slasher/exec to where the PEs cannot get them, but that means going to t120+, which renders spies utter drug whores if they don't want to be completely defencless.
Removing the PEPA mainstat bonuses is another thing, but that means that the Judge and libby/BS PEs are at a dissadvantage too.
If I was being totally selfish I would say I don't mind, I use redflash on my PE (despite my general distaste for drugs) and I don't need the dex, without PA 3 I have 100 dex.
But in other setup it would cause extreme discomfort, you would see even more drugging in the usually drug free lowtech/tl area.
The slasher/exec PEs are equal to the 'new' CS/tank weapons, but they are drugging to the eyeballs.
Removing the slasher/exec from PEs and lowering the tank weapon dmg would balance things, but it is a nerf of sorts, and there is another thing we need to think about.
Hybrids.
They are stronger than the other classes, so why nerf the tanks and high tl PEs when we can increase the dmg (slightly) of the lower weapons.
The wyatt has pretty much had this done allready, the libby, judge, PE and RoG (despite it's raygun mechanics) could get a boost similar to the boost rhe judge got back in the 'fuck up' patch, say about 10%.
I still think that either the slasher or the exec (prefferably the slasher) needs to got to say.. 119 dex, with a minor dmg increase, and the HL brought down to near RoLH dmg, for a tl 110 weapon it is too powerfull.
Mentioned in another thread was an idea that, either there is a restriction on the number of drugs taken, or a limit on the number of drug types that can be taken.
Limiting people to just RF or WF, dolin skin or NS.
The whole thing is so terribly complex, too many things affect others.
//edit, I bet that sounded hopeleesly crap and contradictory.
Does it matter?
Well, yes it does when you start using those PEs and Tanks are measuring sticks for balance. I don't want PEs to be balanced around the assumption that you have to be taking at least 1 drug. No class should be, in fact. Drugs should be there merely to enhance a class.
Just to clarify on DJ's post:
The old CS is balanced with Libby/Judge/RoG etc. The new CS is balanced with Slasher/Exec/RoLH. CS/Slasher/Exec are the weapons hybrids are being compared with to balance them out.
So nerfing CS back to old levels balances Libby/Judge PEs with Tanks again, but leaves Slasher/Exec PEs overpowered, nerfing Slasher/Exec PEs along with CS then leaves hybrids more powerful than everyone else.
So IMO Judge/Libby PEs need some kind of a boost, since it's a bit simpler than going the long way round nerfing Tanks, then Slasher/Exec PEs, and then on to hybrids again, and so on. (Yes this is me trying to save hybrids from a potential nerf :p).
I'm really not too sure what to make of drugs. I think perhaps if drugs had more negatives than just the drugflash they'd be better. In fact, screw the drugflash, and put proper negatives on drugs, just like imps. And have maybe a bar below synaptic impairment which rises as you use drugs over time, once it reaches a critical level you start building up SI from the drugs and need to take a break. That would encourage people to keep use of drugs limited, where using one or two fairly occasionally wouldn't be a problem but constantly popping 5 would screw you over pretty badly after a while.
EDIT: @Judge: You're right, but balance has to be considered based on what people actually do, rather than what they should be doing (bar exploits). People shouldn't be taking drugs permanently, but as long as a significant proportion, even I would say a majority of capped PEs, especially ones with SAs, are drugging up to Slasher/Exec, they have to accounted for. A Tank can't just pop a couple of drugs with his old CS and suddenly match those PEs, which is why CS nerfed back to old level alone won't solve things.
It seems the right solution is hard to find, I'll have to say there was balance, then the balance got screwed. I think DJ its ok to let PEs use high tl weapons as long as they are taking drugs for it, drugs are expensive and full of ridiculous disadvantages and annoyance, I know some of us are Nf magnets so it doesn't matter, but for the outdoor PEs constatnly using drugs is a sad and painful thing.
We need so many drugs and I personally don't think we are at the level of tanks yet, albeit yes xantor and good people can kick tanks as, to me the average tank would win the average drugged PE. effortless. Though the area is quite grey as we find it hard to determine what is an average PE or tank would be. Also in additioon to have to keep 4 buffs, and 4 drugs up tanks also fare better in any team related play, and they don't need to care about shit.
in my opinion we need a new toy, range fixed and rifles damage increased a bit then we are on our way. In general I disagree with DJ that we shouldn't have access to higher tl weapons, this is because i'm a rifle fan and limiting me from spy weapons wuld mean RoG. I am a high tech, termi hasn't been implemented and PE is bugged.
I don't know much about the executioner situation so much, but I think pistols do some insane damage for the speed they get. As for the new toy strongly want jetpacks.
the problem seems to be people no longer regard rifle PEs as existing, everytime everyone talks about PEs its quickly related to pistols. Sure scikar u can boost judge, where does that leave us riflers? Pistols do enough damage as it is.
anyhow I feel finding an appropriate solution is difficult. i'd just backroll damage to where they were before, which I found balanced.
I jump from TC to low tech rifler about every month.
I always go back to Low Tech with a better setup. The setback is the lower dmg. I have concentrated more on capping the PE so through the (what I think is) borked aiming, I'll have the greatest chance to do the most dmg the gun can do. Now I see the greatest limiting factor to me is my skill.
I do feel left out of the main disscusion of PEs. Rifles arn't talked about as much as Pistols. But I know that there are fixes to the Rifles on the way (a few test patches ago, aiming was addressed, i think).
Further comment on Rifles, I think what they did to pulse rifles was wrong. It's high rate of fire separated it from the PE. I loved it, it involved a whole other tactic for me. I feel that the RoF decrease runed it. Thus I went back to low tech. The RoG, while a good gun, just doesn't suit me.
yes because there is such a gap between rifle and pistols people rarely see rifle PEs anymore this has lead them to visualise PEs to be ever with pistols and leading to people like DJ and Scikar only talking about pistols completely forgot that rifles are actually in the balance formula as well.
Dribble Joy
16-06-04, 20:17
¬_¬ *sigh*
The 'problems' accociated with PEs and their balance is more obvious with the pistols.
The rifles, while possibly underpowered, are reasonably balanced across their tl spectrum.
There are issues with the termi and the HL, but these are shadowed byt the Exec and slasher.
¬_¬ *sigh*
The 'problems' accociated with PEs and their balance is more obvious with the pistols.
The rifles, while possibly underpowered, are reasonably balanced across their tl spectrum.
There are issues with the termi and the HL, but these are shadowed byt the Exec and slasher.
I disagree well termi isn't even implemented and HL is not obvious, in fact i'll say its the only gun doing the right damage, RoG does a bit too much and its too easy to aim much like ro RoLH, but when you think about it PE's using exec and slashers are not that overpowered, spies using them are, but they still do too much damage. Albeit because of the no speed decrease in using pistols.
How is our weapon balanced across spectrum? HL is often better then FL and disruptor, RoG does insane damage for its TL. Redeemer is a piece of shit and terminator isn't implemented. PE is balanced but its bugged with reloading and aiming. Our weapons are beyond fucked compared to pistols. All your pistols are viable. I don't even understand why FL does that kind of damage for its TL. Sure we have range but i'll still be complaining ntil the clipping distance is increased or damage on rifle balanced.
the problem, as it's sort of been addressed in a way, seems to be with the blurring lines due to drugs and strength implants between PEs and spies is fading ever more rapidly. Very soon, if not already, the only difference between a PE and a spy will be stealth. I fear that has already happened, and am trying to prove that to be the case with my capped pistol PE and my levelling pistol spy.
PE: 375ish hitpoints, 3 drugs including NightSpider white and red, capped slasher, 6% pvp dmg in all major damage types, 20% in poison, 110 hack.
Spy: 325ish hitpoints, 3 drugs including nightspider white and red, capped slasher, 6% pvp dmg in all major damage types, 24% in poison, 115 poke, stealth 1.
alternate Spy setup: 325ish hitpoints, no drugs, capped slasher, very few resists, free int to do whatever with.
I don't know many people that would choose the second spy setup over the first one.
yes because there is such a gap between rifle and pistols people rarely see rifle PEs anymore this has lead them to visualise PEs to be ever with pistols and leading to people like DJ and Scikar only talking about pistols completely forgot that rifles are actually in the balance formula as well.Well, if it makes you happy...
Termi isn't really in the game, the few times I've seen one I've not been impressed. But apparently it's similar to Wyatt in terms of explosive mod results in very good damage. In which case, rifle v pistol is even here.
Pain Easer has no problems. Its aiming is just like CS or Lib, you can't expect to hit every single shot but you get a damage bonus when you do. Damage is about reasonable compared to Lib, which is similar TL(91).
RoG is again about right. It doesn't break TL100 so you can't expect it to do a great deal of damage, and in an age of Slashers, Executioners, and Cursed Souls, it doesn't. It is also only really useful at very close range. Compares well with Judge (TL100)
Thunderstorm goes without saying.
Redeemer is completely screwed.
Healing Light is a nice TL110 weapon, and compares similarly to Slasher/Exec in terms of being a very powerful weapon which some would argue shouldn't be in the hands of PEs. Compares well with RoLH (108).
Silent Hunter is severely limited by the no one shot kills rule, Kurai reported that after damage was boosted on it, this could only be seen against mobs, players took the same amount of damage. But it's been given a use now by the Spirit mod, which again leads to questions about whether PEs should be using it. The antishelter ability is extremely useful when fighting pistol PEs, or spies with shelter, even if it's not much good on its own against PPUs. With a Spirit mod, I certainly wouldn't be complaining about it when followed with Healing Light for sniping. Doesn't compare directly with Exec/Slasher, but makes up for it with the antishelter ability. Not noticable against solo Tanks, but it is lethal against PEs, spies, and gives the rifle PE more ability than anything bar an APU to take down a PPU. Gives a PE a use at an OP war.
First Love aiming is borked, it should compare favourably with CS due to better aiming and longer range, but it doesn't. I can't remember if recoil is the issue. Doesn't compare with Slasher or Exec, but it's a spy gun, so why should the PEs care.
Disruptor I hardly ever see, as far as I know it would be a decent weapon if hit more often but suffers in a similar way to the Pain Easer, except PE competes with Lib which has similar problems while Dis is compared to HL which has no aiming issues due to being a beam bonus weapon and not burst. As FL regarding comparisons to pistols.
To sum up, not exactly much different to the situation not so long ago with pistols, where the very highest level weapons which only spies can reasonably wield are outclassed by the lower TL weapons which PEs drug up to. I think that also reflects the general concensus among people when talking about rifles, and it also is the reason why most people choose pistols. Only spies really have reason to complain about rifles, especially with Spirit mods being used by PEs, and the only ones I can name who have ever posted about it are Divide, Kurai, and Lethys (though I think he LoMmed). Most just seem to go pistols anyway nowadays.
yes thanks for making me happy lol, i'd give you a hug if you were a girl...anyways..
I don't really have much to disagree on, but I think RoG is a bit easy to use much kike RoLH. RoG readily dishes out more damage then any other rifle, HL is incredibly good if you can use it properly, but it takes time to learn how to use HL. Terminator is a good gun, and i'd prolly go low tech once its officially out. Sure I understand those higher rifles are spy topics, but so are the pistols in discussion right now.
However I find it difficult to bring a solution to the weapon balance problems, add the monks into the formula and you got a real headache.
Alpha-Omega
16-06-04, 23:49
I know im gonna get shouted down for this but what the hell. I would like to see the PE having the ability at character creation to either choose the normal skill lvl config or to actually be able to tweak the levels to whatever slant appeals to them. This would lead to a a massively wide diversity in player styles. You would see some insanely powerful and also insanely funny builds crop up. There would have to be a limit to how far you could adjust a stat, like you could take a stat 20 lvls forwards or backwards meaning the skill lvls could range like this:
INT --- 40 to 80
DEX --- 60 to 100
STR --- 40 to 80
CON --- 45 to 85
PSI ---15 to 55
Same maximum ammount of TOTAL levels but the ability to bend a highly restrictive character into something both powerful and interesting.
Though i wouldnt mind seeing this being implemented for other classes though not to such an extent as the PE, maybe 10 lvl leeway instead of 20.
I like A-Os idea, but that would make things difficult for the already existing PEs.
Furthermore I think it would be good for PEs to start with 78 points in every stats. This would be a massive upgrade to PE psi, int and con, and a major improvement in strenght.
Dribble Joy
17-06-04, 02:59
I know im gonna get shouted down for this but what the hell. I would like to see the PE having the ability at character creation to either choose the normal skill lvl config or to actually be able to tweak the levels to whatever slant appeals to them. This would lead to a a massively wide diversity in player styles. You would see some insanely powerful and also insanely funny builds crop up. There would have to be a limit to how far you could adjust a stat, like you could take a stat 20 lvls forwards or backwards meaning the skill lvls could range like this:
INT --- 40 to 80
DEX --- 60 to 100
STR --- 40 to 80
CON --- 45 to 85
PSI ---15 to 55
Totally open to abuse.
Imagine PEs with blessed heal/shelter, with slashers capped.
PE's are pointless atm.. If you wanna use pistols, a spy is better, same speed, little less hp/resists, has shelter, much more firepower, can stealth and tradeskill. Rifle, same thing. Melee, tank is better, cant use DB but can use much more powerful weapons, much better in a team. tradskilling spy is much better... so, as I said, pointless. The only reason to have one is to say "hey look at me Im playing the most usless class in the game, and if I reallypractice, I can beat other classes who arent very good players, but not the best ones, or I can pretend to be hot shit because I use 3 drugs, but after 5-10 mins Im flashed to hell and useless, whoo hoo"
Dribble Joy
17-06-04, 03:10
or I can pretend to be hot shit because I use 3 drugs, but after 5-10 mins Im flashed to hell and useless, whoo hoo"
Heh, there is one guy who I duel a lot. Hes a complete heal whore (I never heal midfight), he uses a slasher and is popping 4 drugs. Usually close fights.
I casually mention that I never use more drugs in a duel than I would do in an OP fight.
'LOL, this guy I only use in NF, use my tank for OP fights.'
>_<
yeah, I never heal in duels either... its just lame in my opinion, and makes the fight last too long... I always say no heals allowed in a duel, we can both heal and 52/min, so whats the point? If they dont agree, I tell em to get lost.
As for drugging, I think any more then 1 drug is just stupid for any char... its just not viable outside of NF, so winning with 2+ drugs is meaningless.
PE's are pointless atm.. If you wanna use pistols, a spy is better, same speed, little less hp/resists, has shelter, much more firepower, can stealth and tradeskill. Rifle, same thing. Melee, tank is better, cant use DB but can use much more powerful weapons, much better in a team. tradskilling spy is much better... so, as I said, pointless. The only reason to have one is to say "hey look at me Im playing the most usless class in the game, and if I reallypractice, I can beat other classes who arent very good players, but not the best ones, or I can pretend to be hot shit because I use 3 drugs, but after 5-10 mins Im flashed to hell and useless, whoo hoo"
So true. It's my sig now (hope you don't mind).
shit I haven't laughed so hard for a while lol vet i'm going to use that in my sig.
heh, np at all, Im here to entertain and give the mods something to do :D
I was expecting someone to say "My pe beat a parashocked 48/50 tank last night, so you obveously know nothing about PE's, mine is awesome. Oh yeah he can also drive a trike...A TRIKE! so your a noob for saying pes suck, nuff said"
ResurgencE
17-06-04, 09:11
My thoughts on the issue:
http://neocron.jafc.de/showthread.php?t=99364&page=1&pp=15
Personaly I dont think Pe should be able to get guns from the 110+ tl range, mabye make theese spy only.
Another major gripe i have is that a properly setup combat spy can easily equal PE defenses and out shine Pe on damge, simple fix shelter NOT useable by spies.
as it stands now capepd Pe's are mid level combat spies
I agree, PE's shouldnt get the high end guns, they need something thats for sure, dont think a boost tho...just something
oh and a PE can use a PoT, just with rare drugs so effectivly they cant :p
Im afriad they are gonna make PE's a lame class, able to do some weird non face to face combat thing.... like piloting vehicles or helping in combat in a non direct way... I say, make lib bullets hit a little more, add a tl 97 rare auto pistol, a tl 99 rare gat rifle, up pain easer damage/make it hit more, and add a stat to PE pa, able to see stealth, then they will be a useful class again.
Im afriad they are gonna make PE's a lame class, able to do some weird non face to face combat thing.... like piloting vehicles or helping in combat in a non direct way... I say, make lib bullets hit a little more, add a tl 97 rare auto pistol, a tl 99 rare gat rifle, up pain easer damage/make it hit more, and add a stat to PE pa, able to see stealth, then they will be a useful class again.
What vet said!
O_o I never thought I'd say that :wtf:
lol? what a good solution?
I say, make lib bullets hit a little more, add a tl 97 rare auto pistol, a tl 99 rare gat rifle, up pain easer damage/make it hit more, and add a stat to PE pa, able to see stealth, then they will be a useful class again.
yeah i said that on another thread but i think it was read over :p
but i would like to see a few better things and the painy even the aiming would be enough at least i'd get of a few more max bursts in fights :(
Ozambabbaz
17-06-04, 15:36
i agree, something needs to be done about PEs in an MMO.
While slightly off-topic, i was thinking about Melee PEs and Psionics. There could be made new spells that add damage to the melee weapon, increase attack rate etc, self-castable only.
lol? what a good solution?
If it's done at the same time as taking PEs off the 100+ weapons then yes. They shouldn't be trying to emulate spies, what Vet's suggesting will make PEs more unique and separate them from spies.
If it's done at the same time as taking PEs off the 100+ weapons then yes. They shouldn't be trying to emulate spies, what Vet's suggesting will make PEs more unique and separate them from spies.
Yeah i think they should be more unique...
make pas give less dex?
Push the tls of the top spy line 2/3 dex higher i dunno, add more in the sub 100tl range to give pe's good weapons in there range rather than pushing them to get the high tl stuff
Richard Slade
17-06-04, 17:22
Here's my 2c:
PE is the dumpster-of-all-trades and shall therefor be treated like that.
In other words, the PE shouldn't be able to do good damage, versus anything that's PPU buffed, and absolutley not a TANK
Why? Because the PE is made for a few things: Fight, build, drive, psi.
And all this and it should also be better than an APU in dmg or a tank?
Don't think so.
Original monk
17-06-04, 17:38
ya touch PE's at there stealth an suddenly they wonna be distinct from spy's and all while before they wanted to get as close to a spy as possible :) drugging to use everything spylike and stuff :)
PE's a month ago where THE fightingmachines everyone was talking about and now PE's became bad all off the sudden ?
Then i think some people really miss there stealth, cause to be honest only skill 90% of the PE's had was stealth away at 10 hp ... even with semi-ppu buffs lol..
im glad i dont have a PE on my mainaccounts and im glad that KK took stealth away ... the only ones playing PE now are the ones that are skilled with em ...
fake ass nib-stealthPE's, whining on spy's (and no not everybody is the same to make a spy resemble a PE by putting in str-imps ... rofl, inqsetup cookiecutters)
viva the real spy's and the real PE's :)
also why is it that PE's got there stealth taken away and suddenly there are 20 post here in the form off: take this or that away from spy's ... with other words: nerf em also ...
pitty
Why, WHY FOR THE LOVE OF GOD do people insist that PEs are the "Jack of all trades", why? They are not, nor should they be. You don't make a PvP game, then have one of the four classes be completely inept (as a JoAT would be, I'm not saying that they are inept atm) at PvP?
Oh, and if anyone points out that its "in the manual" then look at the rest of the fuck manual. Complete shite for the most part, so tbh unless you think that everything else in there should be true then you can fuck right off. And that includes Spies having whatever weird stats they had before the change.
onoz lets not go into the JOAT thing again.... psi is used to make up for the lack of defence, tradeskills is ridiculously limited for 60 INT, vehicles get owned by 1 star monks, spies can do all this JOAT crap at less expense, need I say more?
mhmh I don't think its soo much of a make these weapons inaccessible (exe and slaher) I think its a more of an issue to nerf them back to hell. The cappped slasher does insane damage for no speed nerf.
Anyhow if you think about it boosting <100 weapons is pointless, your just going to make people angry that the <100 tl weapons are as good as the higher tl and solves nothing. If you don't boost the <100 TL weapons but limit the PEs from using the 100> weapons then PEs would even suck more then they already do.
in fact if you boosted weapons <100 you'd over power PEs completely, sure exeuctioner and slasher PEs are good, but lets be honest man, noone lasts long outside for more then 20 mins with 3 drugs, and with the ammount of money and effort you put into using it. I say its justified for the damage, however if you boost the <100 weapons you'd suddenly make PEs overpowered completely, most PEs think twice before using a setup that relies on drugs.
so the solution? I don't know, add the monks into the formula and you got a lot of shit coming.
Richard Slade
17-06-04, 21:35
My point was more like:
PEs got more INT than the tank
More STR than both spy and monk
More CON than both spy and monk
More DEX than both tank and monk
And more PSI than both spy and tank
Why in christ name would this strange muppet be better than a tank when it comes to the survival when the tank is the only one with higher con
Why in christ name would a PE do more HC OR melee dmg than a tank when the tank is the only one who has more str
Why should the PE be able to handle rifles OR pistols just as good as a spy when the spy is the only one with more dex?
So in the end I'd say: If you want to be better than someone at something and.. Take something that they're not specialized in instead
good points so who in christ's name would play a class that does less damage then a spy and have worse defences then a tank? Thats not even counting monks in who could do some insane damage, or have some superb defence, or have both equally.
specialise in what else? If an HC tank is an HC Tank, what do I specialise in to beat the tank? Drugging?
Dribble Joy
17-06-04, 21:54
My point was more like:
PEs got more INT than the tank
More STR than both spy and monk
More CON than both spy and monk
More DEX than both tank and monk
And more PSI than both spy and tank
Yes well done, that is what a PE is.
Why in christ name would this strange muppet be better than a tank when it comes to the survival when the tank is the only one with higher con
Psi, without Psi PEs would be utter gimps.
Why in christ name would a PE do more HC OR melee dmg than a tank when the tank is the only one who has more str
I was not aware that they did do more dmg. O_o
Why should the PE be able to handle rifles OR pistols just as good as a spy when the spy is the only one with more dex?
Again, they cannot.
Only through total gimpage and/or druging like hippies can they come close.
Stop thinking that PEs are the bastard childs of the other classes.
They are not.
They simply rely on all mainstats to be an effective class of their own (Yes there is a difference).
All the classes (and sub-classes in theory) should be equal in basic (ie. close range) combat.
For weapon systems that extend beyond this arena (heavy, rifles and to an extend psi) additional subskill dedication is required.
Richard Slade
17-06-04, 22:06
Yes well done, that is what a PE is.
Stop thinking that PEs are the bastard childs of the other classes.
They are not.
They simply rely on all mainstats to be an effective class of their own (Yes there is a difference).
All the classes (and sub-classes in theory) should be equal in basic (ie. close range) combat.
For weapon systems that extend beyond this arena (heavy, rifles and to an extend psi) additional subskill dedication is required.
All classes should be equal in CC?
then give the spy and apu a whoopin' load of con in their package before you even start thinking about the PE
Ok maybe not the apu so much, but sure as hell the spy.
Why? When it has been proved that the Spy has the same offence and almost as good defence (within like 2%) as a PE using the same amount of drugs, and also has stealth 1 over PEs.
Why then do they deserve more con?
onoz lets not go into the JOAT
Actually, I think this is exactly the time to talk about this. I've talked about this before but rather than repeat it all, I'll just ask the questions and let you all try and answer them. After all, we PE's cant hide from them:
Does the PE's current stat setup make it (or imply that it is) a JOAT?
Is a (true) JOATMON class even practical in this game or any game? (except AD&D :D)
If so, how does the class grow without treading on the other classes toes?
If not, can the PE really be its own class without one or more stats at 100?
If it is agreed that all classes should not be equal in all things, shouldn't each class be able to excel in one area? And if so, what aspect of the game does the PE excel at other than soloing?
If versatility is the PE's strength, shouldnt all PE's have an equal chance to follow their own combat style? H-C and M-C PE's can be effective, but not as much as P-C and R-C PE's - is that fair?
Actually, I think this is exactly the time to talk about this. I've talked about this before but rather than repeat it all, I'll just ask the questions and let you all try and answer them. After all, we PE's cant hide from them:
Does the PE's current stat setup make it (or imply that it is) a JOAT?
Is a (true) JOATMON class even practical in this game or any game? (except AD&D :D)
If so, how does the class grow without treading on the other classes toes?
If not, can the PE really be its own class without one or more stats at 100?
If it is agreed that all classes should not be equal in all things, shouldn't each class be able to excel in one area? And if so, what aspect of the game does the PE excel at other than soloing?
If versatility is the PE's strength, shouldnt all PE's have an equal chance to follow their own combat style? H-C and M-C PE's can be effective, but not as much as P-C and R-C PE's - is that fair?
Ok this is going to take some time. The current base skill "implies" that we are JOATs, but the tradeskills lie in dex and intellegence skills spies excel at, but as the game is designed there is no way to be a viable JOATs unless you go melee combat or heavy combat. The answer is that unless there is more variety to be provided in STR, PSI or CON we will never be true JOATs.
You are right a JOAT is impractical in a game where switching between alts is a matter of seconds, the design of Neocron immedietely puts down the use of one. 1) we need to specialise in one skill to a high extent to be competitive, 2 ) There is little effort in switching between characters, and using them for another skill.
The point I was trying to make was that as a overall class of everything we have to step on the toes of other classes, or we need to be provided something only we can use (e.g STR and INT items like jetpacks). Otherwise we would just stay a useless class.
We could really be unique if our abilities were not so fixed to begin with, I could hardly say have 35 psi and 80 dex are equal proportions. 60 STR and 60 INT just doesn't cut it if you want to do anything decent in those areas. Drugs should and always will be a big part of playing a PE, and that should define us. So if we had equal skills like 70 STR, 70 DEX drugs would play a much larger role, and our setup will be a lot configurable without stepping too much into other classes.
There is also the fact that all skills seem to only occupy one end of the spectrum! It would be a lot more creative if e.g melee was 50% dex and 50% strength, or constructing 50% INT 50% Dex. this way we would move away from cookie cutter characters.
The problem IMO is versability isn't awarded much in this game. There is not much point of being able to use two weapons different weapon types, even if specialisation was not needed. The area between weapon types are too grey, in the end all the weapons are used in the same way in Neocron. What is the point of switching between a plasma cannon and rifle, when they work and used the same way?!?! Of course the game makes it even better by saying that unless you put all your points for this weapon you are going to suck in using it. You want to research and construct? dream on...
Of course i'm not proposing any solutions, because I don't know how to solve this but i'm merely saying there are many things to consider, and my opinion is screw JOATs for now, the whole idea is not going to work unless you make some really big changes into the game. At the moment I just want a role for PEs in op fights, and balanced weapon damage.
What are you talking about, boosting TL<100 weapons won't work? The entire point is that they aren't as powerful as TL>100 weapons. The point is to make them viable, to make them compete with Slasher/Exec/CS when in the hands of a PE with his good defence. A Lib will never do Slasher damage, but since Lib wielding PEs can get considerably more defence than Slasher wielding spies, that balances out. Thus, you make TL<100 pistols worth using for PEs, then stop them using TL>100 weapons. Presto, balanced situation, spies and PEs separated.
Dribble Joy
18-06-04, 00:59
Indeed, if you make the lower lvl weapons an almost better choice for a PE, then you will see more 'high defence' PEs about, less drugging and the line between spies and PEs becomes more solid.
Choosing the tl110+ guns should be an option, but not SO much more of a better option than it is at the moment.
Grrr.... Trying to make a good non-drug non-SA setup for me Libby PE is not fun. Especially when I'm not using PA either (looks minging).
I can get pretty good resists... almost all 7-6% around abouts, except for poison which is just fucked, and my health is only around 400. =/
Dribble Joy
18-06-04, 01:43
Grrr.... Trying to make a good non-drug non-SA setup for me Libby PE is not fun. Especially when I'm not using PA either (looks minging).
*pokes buttons.
hmmm 430 hp, 130e 127 f/x 77ath, 174 pc, 84 agl 93 dex.
Tad slow, but not too bad...
Erm, I am using titan though.
8| See if you don't boost the <100 weapons to a certain extent, exe and slasher PEs will still be very much about. In the case where you don't boost <100 weapons to be as good as higher tls you generate a problem, because spies have stealth and also almost as good defence as PEs, thus making them the better solo class still.
Also either way you don't prevent PEs using the better weapons. Now if you do boost the <100 weapons as good as the higher tl then the problem is self explanatory.
If what you said was a viable solution, then it problem would be solved already, who said the lower tl weapons were not viable? Its just that executioner and slasher are better, either way a PE would easily drug to increase his preformance. As long as you keep executioner and slasher better then it will always be used, and it doesn't solve the problem that spies still do more damage.
To me stealth is a great defence asset in soloing, and the spy being able to stealth is already a huge asset to its already generous defence if setted up correctly, which is why vet's solution would work out perfect. This is because it adds a weapon in the tl which we see a gap right now, and it allows PE to see stealth, this balances out the current lost we are at with spies.
8| See if you don't boost the <100 weapons to a certain extent, exe and slasher PEs will still be very much about. In the case where you don't boost <100 weapons to be as good as higher tls you generate a problem, because spies have stealth and also almost as good defence as PEs, thus making them the better solo class still.
Also either way you don't prevent PEs using the better weapons.
Now if you do boost the <100 weapons as good as the higher tl then the problem is self explanatory.
Nooooo. First, boost the TL<100 weapons, so they are balanced as primary PE weapons, i.e. weaker than Slasher/Exec/RoLH, to allow for the increased defence of PEs using those weapons. THEN, increase the penalties suffered by PEs who want to use Slasher/Exec/RoLH. So if they really want to, they can still use those guns, but they will be less effective than the PEs using TL<100 weapons, who are balanced. So if a PE wants to be a gimped spy, he can be, for freedom's sake. But that would no longer be the most effective option. Understand yet?
Yeah, I'm using titan as well... getting something pretty similar.
Nooooo. First, boost the TL<100 weapons, so they are balanced as primary PE weapons, i.e. weaker than Slasher/Exec/RoLH, to allow for the increased defence of PEs using those weapons. THEN, increase the penalties suffered by PEs who want to use Slasher/Exec/RoLH. So if they really want to, they can still use those guns, but they will be less effective than the PEs using TL<100 weapons, who are balanced. So if a PE wants to be a gimped spy, he can be, for freedom's sake. But that would no longer be the most effective option. Understand yet?
but why should a person drugging be less effective? Why don't we remove drugs then? The ability to sacrifice money and time to use higher weapons has also been a PE exclusive versatality. Removing it means more cookie cutter characters, the PEs as of now can be drug free and still be effective. My primary argument has also been that if you drug you suffer penalties of expense and a time limit already... plus you have to look after more things as well.
The problem is that executioner and slasher is a seperate issue all together, because they both do too much damage anyway. So in the case I hope you understand why I don't see your solution as neccesary.
In my case I see 4 things:
Rifles as an issue of its own all together (both spy and pe)
Private Eyes no longer the best class for solo, due to removal of stealth.
Private Eyes have no place in a team, always have been the case.
Exe and slasher do way too much damage, all other weapons are unbalanced or underpowered.
So to me making <100 pistol do more damage solves nothing, not only does the pistols <100 do enough damage already, and so does rifles (I wouldn't count RoG as weak at all) Either you boost is so its still under the exe, and PEs will continue to use it, or you make it as good as the higher tl weapons. Both ways you solve nothing. the solution is to nerf exe and slasher, then bring up the damage slightly across all rifles and all pistols. Does that sound okay with you?
but why should a person drugging be less effective? Why don't we remove drugs then? The ability to sacrifice money and time to use higher weapons has also been a PE exclusive versatality. Removing it means more cookie cutter characters, the PEs as of now can be drug free and still be effective. My primary argument has also been that if you drug you suffer penalties of expense and a time limit already... plus you have to look after more things as well.
The problem is that executioner and slasher is a seperate issue all together, because they both do too much damage anyway. So in the case I hope you understand why I don't see your solution as neccesary.
Simple reason. The time limit is not a factor since you can pop another drug, and there are ways around the drugflash. Cost is also not a factor, since there are cheap ways to obtain the drugs, and easy methods to cover the cost, e.g. APCs. Yes, someone taking one drug, possibly two, should receive a reward for it. But it should not be possible to get +33 in a main stat and not have to pay anything for it.
It's not just limited to Exec and Slasher, it applies to HL too. HL is a Spy gun. PEs simply shouldn't be using it.
PEs who don't drug are effective if they stick to TL<100 weapons, so I don't see what you're getting at. The only problem they have is that CS is balanced to the new era of permanently drugged PEs using Spy weapons - so those PEs are weaker. That's why the lower TL weapons need boosting, so that PEs will be balanced with TL<100 weapons. It's no different to what it is now in terms of cookie cutters - todays cookie cutters use HL/Slasher/Exec, they shouldn't be.
Finally, Exec and Slasher don't do too much damage. They're just right for pistol Spies. They do too much damage for PEs. By taking them off PEs, we avoid having to nerf the Spies, who don't need the nerf.
Simple reason. The time limit is not a factor since you can pop another drug, and there are ways around the drugflash. Cost is also not a factor, since there are cheap ways to obtain the drugs, and easy methods to cover the cost, e.g. APCs. Yes, someone taking one drug, possibly two, should receive a reward for it. But it should not be possible to get +33 in a main stat and not have to pay anything for it.
It's not just limited to Exec and Slasher, it applies to HL too. HL is a Spy gun. PEs simply shouldn't be using it.
PEs who don't drug are effective if they stick to TL<100 weapons, so I don't see what you're getting at. The only problem they have is that CS is balanced to the new era of permanently drugged PEs using Spy weapons - so those PEs are weaker. That's why the lower TL weapons need boosting, so that PEs will be balanced with TL<100 weapons. It's no different to what it is now in terms of cookie cutters - todays cookie cutters use HL/Slasher/Exec, they shouldn't be.
Finally, Exec and Slasher don't do too much damage. They're just right for pistol Spies. They do too much damage for PEs. By taking them off PEs, we avoid having to nerf the Spies, who don't need the nerf.
okay I'm all confused now lol. why not nerf the slasher and exe back to where it should be, then increase slightly the entire range of pistols and rifles? No I hardly think slasher damage is justified, it completely makes disruptor looks stupid (yes yes i'm a rifle fanboi). Also capped exe, and slasher does way too much damage for the spy as well, pistol spies already have stealth do they need to do such insane damage with no runspeed lost? And HC tanks got their runspeed nerf, and melee needs to be nerfed as well.
I'm sorry but nerfs need to be made people won't be happy but if we don't do it you'd just pull a bigger problem sooner or later.
Drugs still hurt, yes there are many ways around it, but being a avid drug user myself. It gets very annoying already, I know many PEs who don't drug at all like Kal just to not encounter the problems, not only are drugs full of bugs and suprises you won't find yourself comfortable. a PE has to look out for 4 of his psi buffs, and a druggy PEs need to look out for 3 more intoxications. In the end why not use a tank? You think you can relog, or terminate yourself and get rezzed in the middle of an op fight? Maybe you guys are cool so you can manage getting flash in the middle of the fight, and have to eat more drugs in the middle of the fight, but I certainly can't. So there is definetely a advantage in not drugging.
I think it be interesting if they can allow us to change the settings in the test server so we can test. There are too many factors to consider in every change, a lot of this stuff is just speculation, and unless we been there we would never know. There is complicated balance between many things, and personally I think that <100 weapons don't need to be boosted, but thats just my speculation. I think that once exe and slasher is brought down everything else can be boosted a bit together.
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