View Full Version : Spies in Review (16.06.04): Past, Present & Future
The purpose of this thread is to discuss everything to do with the Spy class - it's strengths, it's shortcomings, where it came from, where it's going, and perhaps more importantly - is that what you want? This isn't just a thread for balancing the classes, it's about what it will take to keep you playing this class for the next 12 months. Obviously this thread is inteded for people who play Spy characters, but everyone is welcome to comment as long as that comment is constructive and justified :D
I'd really like someone from KK to contribute to this thread and comment on the "official" view of the class, but I doubt that will happen unless we get the discussion going. So lets start talking, and we'll see if KK takes notice :)
Mods - Any chance this thread could be sticky-ed?
Spies already have lots of toys as well as some loving when DOY comes (hacknet). I think they should be left alone for the moment while other classes get a look in.
I only want two things right now:
- Stealth should take the runner off mob radar when activated, so steathed spies could extricate themselves from sticky situations or not fear having Obliterator wear off while traversing DoY/TG/CA guard-infested regions.
- Stealth should take the runner off soul light radar when activated, so positive soul light runners could enter the Jail while stealthed and negative soul light runners could scout about CopBot-guarded regions.
Essentially, I want stealth to make me completely invisible to NPCs.
Here are my views, I have played a spy since I started Neocron a year ago:
Stealth - I agree with IceStorm and his comments plus when a spy stealths the visable effects of fire/dmg boost/etc should disappear. Some of these effects can last as long as the stealth making it difficult to escape a tricky situation. This is our main (only) defence!
I am looking forward to hacknet, will have to wait and see what that brings and I have heard bad reports on the holovests, they sound good but most people think they are worthless. I have not seen one, so cannot comment. But the theory sounds good if only they allow you to change your name/faction/skill before wearing them.
The main problem I see is with the draw distance, to be effective we (rifle) spies need distance between ourselves and our targets, the current limitation means we are never far enough away from our enemy and they are soon on to us before we manage to get enough shots in. Maybe the dx9 upgrade and whatever else DoY will enhance will give us a bit more range.
They are my main areas, but I am generally happy with my spy! ;)
The main problem I see is with the draw distance, to be effective we (rifle) spies need distance between ourselves and our targets, the current limitation means we are never far enough away from our enemy and they are soon on to us before we manage to get enough shots in. Maybe the dx9 upgrade and whatever else DoY will enhance will give us a bit more range.
They are my main areas, but I am generally happy with my spy! ;)
yup agreed, thats the main change id like to my rifle spy as well.
Heres hoping BDoY will fix it!
I'm a stealther spy, and i think the dammageboost and other "tracker" things should remain visible in stealth, it's the only way an enemy can track a stealther and kill him.
I know spies need stealth, and right now it's fair, if you remove the flames adn DB, it's overpowered.
As for the rest, i think spies don't need any changes, they're good as they are now, we don't see spy 0' cron and we don't see them goin extinct, which means they're ballanced.
I'm a stealther spy, and i think the dammageboost and other "tracker" things should remain visible in stealth, it's the only way an enemy can track a stealther and kill him.
I know spies need stealth, and right now it's fair, if you remove the flames adn DB, it's overpowered.
Yeh, thinking about it, this would bring about the NERF threads yet again. Let's leave this part of stealth alone.
I don't really know about monks/pe's/tanks but one thing that could be added is some other kind of Power Armour. Ours currently only have XRAY resists, how about a different one, that does FIRE or POISON? I believe other classes can vary their armour, us spies can only be good in XRAY. And the heavy belts are only availabe for capped spies. I still cannot use the heavy energy belt!!
Have played this spy since release. I figure KK has done quite a lot to make ours a useful and interesting class. The advancements in rifles and drones, various forms of armor, and especially the stealth tool, have all been terrific. Besides being excellent tradeskillers, over time we became decent contributors to Op fights (originally we did poorly), because of those enhancements.
My view is that a Spy should be intrinsicly fairly easy to kill if you can get the drop on them, but in fact rather difficult to kill if alerted because they are so clever and elusive - the stealth tool gives us that perfectly. Or at least almost perfectly; one could reasonably argue that the tool works a little too well and hence things should be tweaked so we are a tad bit more vulnerable - but i could also be quite happy leaving things as they are now.
If i were to change anything at all it would be to tweak sniper rifles (the other rifles seem to be fine). Not a lot, but some. There are too often times where i get the drop on someone who is unsupported by a PPU and figure i *should* be able to reasonably kill them, but cant, simply because the weapons prove less effective than i'd like as a result of the slow rate of fire and longish reload times - i.e. the target manages to scurry into cover, albeit badly wounded, even though i figured i had him nailed in the open. Which to me implies a need for a bit more damage or a bit faster rate of fire. But then again, maybe thats nitpicking and so perhaps should just be left alone.
The upcoming Holo Vest could be neat if they'd change it to be "useful". If it let us masquerade as some other clan or faction, and change our name in local, it would be actually worthwhile. I mean, come on, how *do* total strangers suddenly know my name and clan and faction? How do enemy guards know i *am* their enemy?!? Not like i shout it out or have it branded on my forehead. So a Holo Vest seems a fine way to disguise myself as someone else. Whereas in its current form i see no practical use for it at all.
Spook @ Pluto
Drone Power armour i know we have had a 12% damage boost.
also how about a para shock drone? :D
Birdman[H.E.]
17-06-04, 10:10
I played spy since Beta 4, leaved it to Tank, Then PE, then Back to Spy in this last months.
My ideas of the spy are:
PROS:
-Assesin weapons: A spy should be able to kill someone who doesn't know where he's, if you got someone from the back while stealthed you could take him down with a first strike that will take you out of stealth but would deal tons of damage (this possible with special DEX melee weapons with crazy requirements).
This weapons stats should be defined by some MELEE, AGL, and Weapon Lore.
-Moob souldn't be able to detect spy unless they are really high ranked, there should be some kind of detection system with will allow players or Moobs of high skill to detect lower skilled players (players with stealth can detect others stealthed). Making Spy vs Spy wars also.
-Spies should be ables to climb.
-Hacknet should exist and spies should play a big part on it.
-Sniper rifles need to be implemented in a decent, really what we have now is shit.
-Add more Doors or shit that only spy can open, hackboxes with real crazy hack requirements, i dont know, bring back hacking SOMEHOW before DOY.
-All Rifles needs a slight boost, specially snipers and pain easer (slight boost i said dont panic).
-Hack turrets so they can be disabled/turned on your favor by a stealthed spy (yeah hack while stealthed, but if you miss hacking the stealth run out in front of a turret and you are dead meat).
CONS:
-Spies should be really easy to kill if caught, PK pistol spies are a joke and unbalance this game.
-PSI mm, spies shouldn't be able to cast shelter even with drugs or chips configs.
-A spy shouldn't be able to use the INQ set from STR that easy.
-There should be some detection proximity calculations for stealth mostly based on int and dex (a dumb ass tank shouldnt be able to detect a spy unless its 1m from it, a spy with capped int, dex and lot of skills should be able to see one at 15m for example).
I think is a joke to be able to dissapear in front of a guy face, even if you are houdini.
Maybe someone wont agree with me, all i say is that pistol SPY should dissapear in favor of sniper and assesin spy, if you want to play pistols, go PE.
In general spies shouldn't be able to survive if caught, but they should be able to kill someone easier than they do now.
**I know others classes need to be reworked, im not talking about nerfing others classes or anything, most classes need to be balanced out a bit, im putting my wish list on the spy here, nothing else**
']-Moob souldn't be able to detect spy unless they are really high ranked
Or even better; Warbots/Hoverbombers only.
']-Spies should be really easy to kill if caught, PK pistol spies are a joke and unbalance this game.
No, we should be able to escape. People got tools to kill stealthed spies. If they dont know how to track one, they should loose the spy.
']-PSI mm, spies shouldn't be able to cast shelter even with drugs or chips configs.
Because? It's a low level PSI.
']-A spy shouldn't be able to use the INQ set from STR that easy.
Neither should a PE then.
']I think is a joke to be able to dissapear in front of a guy face, even if you are houdini.
Houdini didn't have a stealth tool.
What i want is more ESCAPE weapons/toys. Drop a thing (Maby a Turret or a 70/70 Pink firebreathing elefant) and people back off leaving the spy to run away.
Let the Spy spy.
Anyone got insights on the Holovests? Do your name/clan/faction thing change? Would be pretty stupid to have a new "outfit" on then people recognise you by your original ID's.
remove the ability for spes to cast shelter.
Fix the damage on there weapons, some just sucks to bad, FL RD....
Give spies 50-75 more dex points to spend ....
stealth IMO should clear all agro from npc's
Birdman[H.E.]
18-06-04, 09:51
ichinin i think your spy is more like a pe with stealth (yeah at least after what you told about inq set makes me think that).
The spy im asking for is a real spy who lives in shadows, and is always stealthed until his first strike.
Or a sniper that is hard to find.
If you are a good spy you dont need to scape unless you killed someone first (in close combat), and there not only tools but skills will make you survive.
If you snipe someone you will be in safe distance to stealth from any target.
So going assesin would deal amazing damage, but would be very hard to assesin someone who is not alone without eating dust after that.
About tracking a spy down, i think it should be a thing of spy vs spy, for example if you have stealthed enemies, you need a stealther to detect em, i give my ideas on some detection system before.
Im just giving my ideas away, you can give your complete description of your spy idea and we would see, thats what this thread is all about.
thats what this thread is all about.
Yup, thats correct - so keep those Spy ideas coming, all of you.
Sure.
but, what i think of is the BDoY with the removal of safezones and so on, it's not gonna be easy to go from your appartment to crytons with your pure tradeskiller. All RP will be gone if just ONE random PKers sets his ass with a rifle in the plaza district.
Yes, a spy should be required to take out other spies at distance, just like hunter killer submarines are required to take out other submarines. If the spy gets too close then we got the close range option of other players.
But, i also want the option of beeing able to escape. I prefer running from enemies then returning with the big guys to fry their asses, as spies have slim chanses of taking other people out. I'm thinking of BDoY when i say escape weapons/toys, because i want to infiltrate the city (NC and DoY) and sneak my way around, steal a secret, then run to the nearest GR.
A bit like the intro scene from "Ghost in the shell"...
Birdman[H.E.]
18-06-04, 10:19
It would be great to have better stealth options, like remaining stealthed for longer time, maybe ever, until someone detects you or you fire a weapon (If you played daoc they implemented a good idea of an assesin, even when the game sux in general).
But the idea of simply banishing in front of the face of an enemy shouldn't be an option, you should be able to drop a flash for example, run some metters and then stealth, but not at 1m distance.
Its good to have decent ways to scape, but you will have to be really skilled and capped to do that from a face to face encounter.
In the other hand if you could remain stealthed longer, until detected, you could scout areas, enter tons of places (walking slower than normal, running while stealthed shouln't be an option).
What do you think?
from "Ghost in the shell"...
I dont believe it - Thermoptic camouflage! :eek:
*ahem*
Richard Slade
18-06-04, 10:33
I'd say all we really really need is
1)Drone luv.. Still much to do there
2)Aim.. Still much to do there :P FL isn't what it should be.
love my drones :D
up and down controlls are a must, so i can keep height and fire at the same time
Neither should a PE then.
Why shouldn't a PE? PE's don't have stealth to escape, they are best at close range, so they need better defense. That was one of the least thought out replies I've ever seen on this forum and there's a long list.
What i want is more ESCAPE weapons/toys. Drop a thing (Maby a Turret or a 70/70 Pink firebreathing elefant) and people back off leaving the spy to run away.
Let the Spy spy.
I'm sorry but if you think you really need that then your a crap spy. There are other people here talking about damage, range etc. All you want is to be able to run away and never die?
Also if you want to be able to escape so easily then why do you need inq or shelter?
Edit: Took me ages to write between jobs. Just seen your later post.
Yeah it would be nice to have extra abilities for sneaking into cities, and you get that with hacknet.
The thing is people wouldn't just use these abilities for that.
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