View Full Version : hybrid monks, from the old days
im back playing as a monk again these days, as hybrids are fun for me atm as they once where.
but one thing that i never really got, from start of retail, it was hybrid monks, there may of been a few non hybrids, but they were proberbly PPU(FMN from pluto and Mikau on saturn to name 2).
so basically 99% of monks where hybrid, and i think anyone who played them had fun as one.
so why did KK instead of balancing the hybrids as they where take the class in 2 and try balancing from there.
i mean imo the game would of been a lot more balance if they had worked on hybrids to balance rather than nerf them to hell then create 2 more classes that imbalance the game.
ok i know hybrids had to be nerfed(no matter how much Hinch might not like it)as when you have a single char who can happily take on several opponants at once theres a problem.
so why did KK seemingly just decide to create these 2 classes instead of balancing the one that was there.
imo hybrids would of been more balanced to the game than the ppu apus.
on one hand you have a class who ya they do great damage but cant even heal themselves.
while you got the major imbalance class the ppu whichmakes anyone look godlike.
instead of a one man army, you ended up with a 2 man army :rolleyes: go team play
and ya i am missing my old hybrid :( why o why did i delete him
It would have been far easier to balance the old hybrids. With only one class drawing on PSI as a mainskill things would be far easier, instead of the 3 we have now, one of which with several variations.
I think KK just really liked the idea of PPUs and APUs and more class diversity. But it was definitely a mistake.
so why did KK instead of balancing the hybrids as they where take the class in 2 and try balancing from there.
i mean imo the game would of been a lot more balance if they had worked on hybrids to balance rather than nerf them to hell then create 2 more classes that imbalance the game.How do you know? If they would've tried to balance hybrids, it still could've gone wrong.
The problem was you got the best of the both worlds. Godlike protection and insane damage. They have been balanced quite well now, especially since they unnerfed the stats.
Hybrids are quite playable now, but they are no where near as strong in the respectives skills that the APU/PPU have and that is how it should be.
How do you know? If they would've tried to balance hybrids, it still could've gone wrong.
it could of but it still would of been easier to balance one than to balance 2.
The problem was you got the best of the both worlds. Godlike protection and insane damage.
yup they did, but instead of balancing it at that, my reducing the godlike power of them, they made 2 more classes
it could of but it still would of been easier to balance one than to balance 2.
yup they did, but instead of balancing it at that, my reducing the godlike power of them, they made 2 more classes
They didn't make two more classes - they balanced the two that were originally there.. the two classes they had originally designed and planned for.
Hybrids were an unforseen "consequence".. as they had never intended the game to be played this way. Particularly when they were so powerful.
Eddie
it could of but it still would of been easier to balance one than to balance 2.YOu mean balance 3, APU, PPU, Hybrid ;)
Clownst0pper
15-06-04, 17:34
The monk situtation is out of control in terms of balance.
Ive spent hours trying to think of a way to "fix" the problem, and its almost impossible, reduce shelter? reduce heal? Give chips with both + apu + ppu? get rid of pures?
It is out of control, and I honestly dont think KK know what to do about is, at atm, PPU's are still to hard, and far to important.
And I wont even go into why damage boost and parashock exists...
-Good thread ezza
yup they did, but instead of balancing it at that, my reducing the godlike power of them, they made 2 more classes
They did balance hybrids. Try playing one now. Its fine, you are just restricted from the very high level spells.
clownstopper, adapt or die. If your still having problems with PPUs then the problem is probably yours.
adapt? interesting word in a game of limited freedom confined by your class choice.
They did balance hybrids. Try playing one now. Its fine, you are just restricted from the very high level spells.
clownstopper, adapt or die. If your still having problems with PPUs then the problem is probably yours.
What, adapt as in reroll to either PPU, APU, or use spirit modded SH? I'd like to see you kill one of the better PPUs as a Tank or pistol Spy.
Richard Slade
15-06-04, 18:05
The simple solution IMO is to reduce all PPU stuff by 50% and up the reqs for all APU spells that actually make dmg by like 10% or something.
OR just add one skill for each type of dmg. Then you'd have more choices.
Choices are always good. Many of them.
And honestly. The PPU spells need to go down a few notches..
They did balance hybrids. Try playing one now. Its fine, you are just restricted from the very high level spells.
clownstopper, adapt or die. If your still having problems with PPUs then the problem is probably yours.
i do play a hybrid now
YOu mean balance 3, APU, PPU, Hybrid aye thats what i ment :p
clownstopper, adapt or die. If your still having problems with PPUs then the problem is probably yours. clownstopper isnt some noob who doesnt know what hes talking about
They didn't make two more classes - they balanced the two that were originally there.. the two classes they had originally designed and planned for.
Hybrids were an unforseen "consequence".. as they had never intended the game to be played this way. Particularly when they were so powerful.
Eddie
You're missing some history about monks, Eddie. Up until a few months after US Retail/Pluto's opening Every Monk was a Hybrid. That was simply how the class was setup. We were one class, with no such thing as a pure monk. Some monks specialized in ppu, but were still hybrids. You had 4 stats under PSI: PPU, APU, EPU, and PPW. EPU required sinking lots of points into it just to use Damage Boost and Ressurect. It had no other spells and most monks ignored it entirely. The few that did take it up were very popular : ) Then KK replaced EPU with MST, a requirement for all spells. They expanded the PPU line of spells and created the idea of a Pure PPU Monk. It was obvious this was supposed to be the Cleric type role in Neocron, to offer a new style of gaming. APU's were created at the same time, but suffered from lots of problems which made them virtualy unplayable. It wasn't until later that they became a viable class to play. For a long time Hybrids outnumbered Pure's by a lot. We were in fact often ridiculed for being so specialized : ) Then KK made a big push to convert us to Pure Monks, with patch after patch of Hybrid Nerfs. They effectively demolished the original Monks and forced everyone to pick a new Pure type.
Ezza: The answer is really simple, as to why they did this. It wasn't to balance hybrids, though that certainly needed to be done. Monks are the guinea pigs for KK's experiment on Specialization/Team Based Gameplay. In Early retail and Beta we had much more freedom to choose our setups, you did not hafta specialize in combat to be good at it. Since then they've been making subtle changes here and there to encourage specialization and teaming. Really the introduction of the PPU was like a big signpost saying "Welcome to the New Specialist Neocron: Soloing Strongly Discouraged"
Dribble Joy
15-06-04, 18:24
If you know what you are doing and don't mind switching PAs and have a friend to psi3 you, you can have a HL/Holy H/S hybrid again.
I like hybrids, however,I still think they are too powerful. Its still almost impossible for 2 (let alone 1) person to kill a hybrid before he kills them. The "solution" to me is relatively simple, and theres 2 parts:
Nerf damage boost- or make the quality actually affect something besides rof. Once your damage boosted by a hybrid, you can kiss your ass goodbye (unless you have pills, of course.) This option would be the least liked, but this is what causes the massive dmg hybrids have (in tandem with the second part)
Nerf the ROF of lower level spells. DMG boost + capped energy halo > holy lightning in a fight between hybrid and pure apu. A pure might have a small chance if he has capped rof on his hl, otherwise, the dmg boost and capped rof on a energy halo will toast him (and many other classes).
A hybrid should NOT be as good as a pure, otherwise there is no point in psi specialization (which i know some people are against anyway, but bite me :cool: )
well, imm on my lunhc break so i just kinda typed this up in 5 minutes so it prolly doesnt have much backing to it, heh. oh well, ill be back with my rebuttle after work ^^
Dribble Joy
15-06-04, 18:35
Even an apu-biased hybrid with 440% odd dmg and near capped rof on his HL can db, making him potentially far more powerfull than a pure (solo).
One thing that would help, would be to make DB a tl 55 spell, which means the ppu biased hybrids can still use it, the only 'problem' is that it takes db away from PEs, though personally I don't think that's a bad thing.
If you know what you are doing and don't mind switching PAs and have a friend to psi3 you, you can have a HL/Holy H/S hybrid again.
relying on someone to constantly psi 3 you should not be condicered a normal setup, though i see what you are getting at
but its not really that viable.
nothing was as fun as the 116 112 monks as they where back then(iirc been a while not 100% sure if that was the number configuration) instead of reducing the shelters etc they brough ppus apu.
i mean one patch they made it so you couldnt use HL(or FA) and para, then the next they bring in MC5s which enabled it to happen again, some of the monk decisions have been crazy to say the leest.
i suppose the community didnt help much.
always shouting nerf nerf instead of looking(beyond a few people who did look at what the problem was)at why they were so powerful and reducing that power, and then the powerful hybrids would say no to the nerf and nothing else for fear of having there power stripped from them
yeh he is
bahh ok he is then, what do i know :p
clownstopper isnt some noob who doesnt know what hes talking aboutyeh he is :p
anyways not to look like a silly spammer (:0)
since I started monks have been a problem, I remember the monks in my clan (BETA) complain after every patch when they had to redistribute their points again. I was never a allmighty hybrid when those rules the neocron world. was only a nooblet level 45 hybrid back then. Still they were hella fun. You could just easily solo everything in the game. The ones not playing a hyrbid had it hard though (libby did 0 damageto them, and you would be dead in 2 shots rofl).
ppus are a little bit hard still, but with all the anti shelter toys [slowly] making their way in the game it's getting better. the leveling doesnt change tho, you can solo most places but places like the tunnels and mc5; a ppu is a necessicity. which is a shame.
right now, I feel the hybrids are pretty balanced, when you capped PSI and have 90+ ish INT
I like hybrids, however,I still think they are too powerful. Its still almost impossible for 2 (let alone 1) person to kill a hybrid before he kills them. The "solution" to me is relatively simple, and theres 2 parts:
Nerf damage boost- or make the quality actually affect something besides rof. Once your damage boosted by a hybrid, you can kiss your ass goodbye (unless you have pills, of course.) This option would be the least liked, but this is what causes the massive dmg hybrids have (in tandem with the second part)
Nerf the ROF of lower level spells. DMG boost + capped energy halo > holy lightning in a fight between hybrid and pure apu. A pure might have a small chance if he has capped rof on his hl, otherwise, the dmg boost and capped rof on a energy halo will toast him (and many other classes).
A hybrid should NOT be as good as a pure, otherwise there is no point in psi specialization (which i know some people are against anyway, but bite me :cool: )
well, imm on my lunhc break so i just kinda typed this up in 5 minutes so it prolly doesnt have much backing to it, heh. oh well, ill be back with my rebuttle after work ^^
ive only come across one hybrid who gave me major trouble since the nerfs and that was monsoon, not sure on what his setup is but his ability to remove your sheilds helped him.
yes he was quite powerful but then i was doing ok against him on my tank and my aim sucks.
im sorry but if 2 people cant kill them then they have a problem
if a hybrid is not as good as a pure, then what th epoint in them existing full stop, personally i can live without pures and just having a well balanced hybrid.
and unlike pures hybrids really need to be almostcapped/capped to pvp(well)
You're missing some history about monks, Eddie. Up until a few months after US Retail/Pluto's opening Every Monk was a Hybrid. That was simply how the class was setup. We were one class, with no such thing as a pure monk. Some monks specialized in ppu, but were still hybrids. You had 4 stats under PSI: PPU, APU, EPU, and PPW. EPU required sinking lots of points into it just to use Damage Boost and Ressurect. It had no other spells and most monks ignored it entirely. The few that did take it up were very popular : ) Then KK replaced EPU with MST, a requirement for all spells. They expanded the PPU line of spells and created the idea of a Pure PPU Monk. It was obvious this was supposed to be the Cleric type role in Neocron, to offer a new style of gaming. APU's were created at the same time, but suffered from lots of problems which made them virtualy unplayable. It wasn't until later that they became a viable class to play. For a long time Hybrids outnumbered Pure's by a lot. We were in fact often ridiculed for being so specialized : ) Then KK made a big push to convert us to Pure Monks, with patch after patch of Hybrid Nerfs. They effectively demolished the original Monks and forced everyone to pick a new Pure type.
Ezza: The answer is really simple, as to why they did this. It wasn't to balance hybrids, though that certainly needed to be done. Monks are the guinea pigs for KK's experiment on Specialization/Team Based Gameplay. In Early retail and Beta we had much more freedom to choose our setups, you did not hafta specialize in combat to be good at it. Since then they've been making subtle changes here and there to encourage specialization and teaming. Really the introduction of the PPU was like a big signpost saying "Welcome to the New Specialist Neocron: Soloing Strongly Discouraged"
hmm, ya its not hard to see hybrids/monks as the guinea pigs, god knows howmany patchs i had to sit though seeing what thy have done with my class(as it was then as only playd the one char).
its a shame they feel the need to force us to team.
though if they really want us to team, just remove everyone else ability to cast heals etc and leave it to the monks.
sucks tbh, was good fun as the hybrid monk.
Dribble Joy
15-06-04, 18:52
The only real problem I have with hybrids is the ppu biased ones.
Hybrids ARE a combat class, and no combat class should be able to out heal any of the others.
As it is, you can (with PA switching) use E-beam and blessed buffs. Or a halo without switching.
Meaning all but the most detirmined apu or tank is going to beat down your blessed shelter and heal, while you can quite easily out dmg thier poxy tl3 heal.
It would be nice if very APU biased hybrids could use a tl3 heal without having to spend 50 points in ppu to counter the -ppu from apu imps/pa
One thing that would help, would be to make DB a tl 55 spell, which means the ppu biased hybrids can still use it, the only 'problem' is that it takes db away from PEs, though personally I don't think that's a bad thing.
Well, then the Spy would probably be the class to chose. Atm its possible to take as less damage as a PE PLUS stealthtool PLUS spirit sh etc. If PEs couldn't DB anymore what would be the difference between Spy and PE?
and ya i am missing my old hybrid :( why o why did i delete him
They effectively demolished the original Monks and forced everyone to pick a new Pure type.
Ah, some of us never gave up on Hybrids :p
Only think i regret now about the nerfs is the fact i cant use a swirly, which therefore means i cant tell anyone to
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/daniel_rogers1/forum/suckmahswirly.jpg My old sig from awhile back
As it is, you can (with PA switching) use E-beam and blessed buffs. Or a halo without switching.
For PA switching it means that the Hybrid has to almost max out their carrying load, gimp for transport which takes away from force resists. Not to mention carrying 2 armors which cost a fortune.
Id say the holy lightning/dboost combo is about the only balanced hybrid setup atm. But, blessed/holy hybrids are really nothing but weak ass ppu's, so its not really all that big of a deal anyway.
I dont know how many times Ive tried to make a setup where I have to swap pa, and every fucking time Im just so let down with the setup. Let these people sit and switch apu/ppu armor just to use the spells in their quickbelt-- they wont last long. Eledhbrant had a holy buff/halo hybrid who could use holy lightning/etc with a psi buff, and apu pa3-- but with apu pa3, he couldnt cast a blessed heal... Do we really need to worry more about these weak ppu's when if they are in "attack" mode they cant even heal?
I like hybrids, however,I still think they are too powerful...A hybrid should NOT be as good as a pure
hmm, for playing a hybrid I'd say they are pretty much fine as is. And why shouldn't a hybrid be just as good as a pure? I mean he can heal himself (whether it be tl 3 or blessed) and buff himself and have a dmg output, seems reasonable to me that hybrid should be able to do that and be decent (or is there some rule that says 'thou shalt have crappy hybrids who can't do much' :p ). The setup I have at the moment is the equivilent of a PE's psi defenses with holy lightning and trust me it is possible to kill a hybrid. Might take a ton of effort (or a ppu) but it is possible and not as bad as you seem to say it is.
Shadow Dancer
15-06-04, 21:37
Yea KK should have just stuck to balancing hybrids, and not create the monster that is ppu/apu.
bah
The only problem right now is that I think the defense of bless hybrids is too good.
Id say the holy lightning/dboost combo is about the only balanced hybrid setup atm. But, blessed/holy hybrids are really nothing but weak ass ppu's, so its not really all that big of a deal anyway.
I dont know how many times Ive tried to make a setup where I have to swap pa, and every fucking time Im just so let down with the setup. Let these people sit and switch apu/ppu armor just to use the spells in their quickbelt-- they wont last long. Eledhbrant had a holy buff/halo hybrid who could use holy lightning/etc with a psi buff, and apu pa3-- but with apu pa3, he couldnt cast a blessed heal... Do we really need to worry more about these weak ppu's when if they are in "attack" mode they cant even heal?
It's still holy S/D, even with only a TL3 heal. And holy lightning if they get a psi 3. Two of them together can do that. Then you have essentially a PPU/APU combo, except they are both interchangable and the S/D is selfcast as opposed to foreign cast, even if only 300% or so that's better than a foreign cast.
then you antishelter them and take them down
then you antishelter them and take them down
Gets kind of hard as a pistol pe/pistol spy/tank usually. Heading back to the needing a team to take down a hybrid mentality again. Needing an APU or spirit mod to take out a PPU is bad enough without it applying to hybrids too. I haven't actually fought Eledh's hyb yet, and given I hardly play Saturn now I probably won't any time soon, but it still sounds a bit worrying.
Clownst0pper
15-06-04, 22:30
I was purely stating that as long as the reliance on PPU's is as heavy as it is now, the game will never be balanced.
Having and playing a PPU isnt a supporting role, its a gaurenteed lifeline, to even the worst of players.
It doesnt even boost your defence, it most cases, with a good ppu, and a good tank/apu, as a team its almost unstoppable, and at the end of the day, it comes down to the holy shelter, and holy heal, which are far to important in this game.
When was the last time a fight lasted an hour? Or when was the last time an OP war lasted more than 10 seconds without a PPU?
Sadly, at the end of the day, the monk is the problem in this game, and it needs to be addressed.
Hybrids should be 100% viable, with a fine balance of buffs/heal and offensive spells, atm, its lob sided, with over ppuing, or over offensive, or dribble suggestion which is just madness. :)
Hell, what do I know, I need to adapt and stop being a noob
I would make a hybrid anyday if they didn't require a DS to be any good...Now where is that guy who gives community ideas to KK?
Gets kind of hard as a pistol pe/pistol spy/tank usually. Heading back to the needing a team to take down a hybrid mentality again. Needing an APU or spirit mod to take out a PPU is bad enough without it applying to hybrids too. I haven't actually fought Eledh's hyb yet, and given I hardly play Saturn now I probably won't any time soon, but it still sounds a bit worrying.
That hybrid would be powerful -- iirc eledh's monk got 90/min and 460 or so dmg on his holy lightning with apu power armor on. But the point is that he is going to have to change pa's to heal... I dont really see that as too much of a problem.
Eledh has since lommed his hybrid to apu I believe
I wasnt around for beta, and i missed the Whole EPU, which is a shame cos i gotta admit i love the idea of it....
let me ask a question if i may, Would yu like to see the return of the EPU e.g. (dunno if this was how it worked btw)
APU - as it is now
EPU - heals, ressurect, Soulclusters
PPU - Shields, Shelters, Resist boosts, Combat boots, Damage boost
THE BIN - Parashock
I wasnt around for beta, and i missed the Whole EPU, which is a shame cos i gotta admit i love the idea of it....
let me ask a question if i may, Would yu like to see the return of the EPU e.g. (dunno if this was how it worked btw)
APU - as it is now
EPU - heals, ressurect, Soulclusters
PPU - Shields, Shelters, Resist boosts, Combat boots, Damage boost
THE BIN - ParashockJust so people know, the old style APU/PPU/EPU system:
APU: All fire, energy, poison and parashock spells.
PPU: Shelter, Group Shelter, Shelter Sanctum, Heal, Group Heal, Heal Sanctum
EPU: Damage Boost, Damage Boost Sanctum, Resurrect
*Waits for a few hundred people to storm in and 'correct' it*
i wouldnt mind that change, however im not sure it would make much diffrence, would we still have Psi power to use if this was changed?
i wouldnt mind that change, however im not sure it would make much diffrence, would we still have Psi power to use if this was changed?
i would say yes mate, cos then it would be something that all varities of hybrids/pures would have to consider in their setups, cos mana pools vary from monk to monk
the PPW would be he central stat tho for both % damage and mana pool so 'pure' hybrids (those with points in ALL 3) would have a lower pool, allowing for a greater diversity in player setups
Create a special line of Hybrid spells
Make the reqs both ppu/apu then make these spells unaffected by the ppu/apu nerf thing that they could reimplement to stop people using the non hyby spells. Make all the duel combo line malus free but all the non duel combo line (ie ppu 110 or apu 130 etc) have the reduction for opposite skills like the original nerf
Get things like...
Hybrid Pa : Adds say psi use 5/10 points in each apu/ppu
Hybrid Heal : Cures around the amount in between Blessed and normal
Hybrid Shelter/Deflects : Resists the same as say the normal shelter maybe a tad less or a tad more.
Hybrid Dmg boost : Amplifies dmg by same 5% or sain
Then like specilised dmg attacks
i think creating a new line of psi modules for a hyb is prolly a easier way of balancing things as you could adjust there actual tools then rather than 3 seperate classes in one go :(
heh my 2 cents anyway it sounded okish to me :/
im back playing as a monk again these days, as hybrids are fun for me atm as they once where.
but one thing that i never really got, from start of retail, it was hybrid monks, there may of been a few non hybrids, but they were proberbly PPU(FMN from pluto and Mikau on saturn to name 2).
so basically 99% of monks where hybrid, and i think anyone who played them had fun as one.
so why did KK instead of balancing the hybrids as they where take the class in 2 and try balancing from there.
i mean imo the game would of been a lot more balance if they had worked on hybrids to balance rather than nerf them to hell then create 2 more classes that imbalance the game.
ok i know hybrids had to be nerfed(no matter how much Hinch might not like it)as when you have a single char who can happily take on several opponants at once theres a problem.
so why did KK seemingly just decide to create these 2 classes instead of balancing the one that was there.
imo hybrids would of been more balanced to the game than the ppu apus.
on one hand you have a class who ya they do great damage but cant even heal themselves.
while you got the major imbalance class the ppu whichmakes anyone look godlike.
instead of a one man army, you ended up with a 2 man army :rolleyes: go team play
and ya i am missing my old hybrid :( why o why did i delete him
What was your highest ranking for a hybrid? Mine was 128/63 :)
Jackie Chan
16-06-04, 16:34
i am remamber my old hybrid Monk :eek:
What was your highest ranking for a hybrid? Mine was 128/63 :)once again..
Isn't 127/ the highest?
once again..
Isn't 127/ the highest?
damn..maybe it was like 123 or something, you are probably right..the account has been deactivated for a few months, it was just re-activated 3 months ago, and the PPU was lommed...after that, somebody else had the password somehow, account hack I guess, if that's possible...over 200 Mc5 parts, cabinets full of rares for every class, over a thousand identified techs in like 20 apartments...all gone..we (my roommate and I, the guy I bought the account off) abandoned Wakeup in anger (thankfully, DS and other imps were still there, PA's and magic as well)...I just re-activated him a month ago..
Anyway, the whole point is that I might be a bit confused, it's been a while, but he was in the 120's...I used to solo Chaos AND Mc5 quite frequently, no bullshit.
(on Venus, you don't get blasted in the back by people like Vett :)...
(Anyway, sorry to tell my sad story..I'm still hurting from it...lol)
Now, I can't any of this alone anymore, i'm capped and bored. That sucks.
I'm trying to build a 50/50 hybrid now, since the nerfs, at what level do I concentrate more on putting points into PPU? or do I do it evenly all along?
I have a pe defense hybrid, 130 in apu just to put on the 3rd PA.
thats without a DS (changed into a temp item:mad: ), so incredibly weak to force..
I'm nopt p[laying him untill the loot is somewhat fixed, because I dont like getting pieces of glass or pipes in my chasers.
(rank fires up to 82 when I switch to my shelter)
gotta admit i never really cared about my rank back then so dont think i got any shots of my rankage
A hybrid should NOT be as good as a pure, otherwise there is no point in psi specialization
and if a hybrid cant be as good as a pure whats the point of a hybrid? o_O All classes should be equally as good as each other in a perfect game, hybrids should be equally as good as pures and vice versa, just for different reasons.
Imo hybrids atm are pretty balanced, the problem with hybrids in the past was that they were able to outheal and do alot of damage, now they can have pe type defense and do good damage and not be able to out heal or they can almost out heal alot(blessed heal) and do damage which most classes can almost out heal (holy halo). Yes you get people with wierd combos to allow them to use holy buffs and hl etc but they cant heal while useing hl and so they arent overpowered, the diff in defence between a well setup pe hybrid and holy buff one imo isnt so huge that its over powering, the only thing that would be is if a holy/blessed heal could be used too. As long as blessed heal and a decent attack spell (eg beams) cant be used without pa swaping etc in battle i see no problems with hybrids as they are atm.
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