View Full Version : Vehicle combat
Now, today I was going to MB bunker to lvl my psi on my H-C/melee PE. When I got out there the situation told me it was time for some heavy trike fighting. So there I am driving like a mad man shooting my rockets then suddenly I got a bogey on my six. The amount of damage I can sustain only go so far so as the hits are coming in I find it best to split. Now this bogey wont let me go this easy, I drive down to cover, try to conceal my self in trenches and behind hills as go, pedal to the metal, but the bogey wont let me go. He is still on my tail hitting me and hitting me again. I jump of and throw on a desperate heal, re-enter the trike and head for safety to the next zone. I get away.
Sound exciting?? Well it would be if the bogey on my six had been another trike, but in this case it was a monk. Running after me spamming me with poison stacks. WTF do I need a car for? Packing more hardware. K granted, that point is fulfilled. Getting around faster? Not a chance. That monk could have run after me to the end of the world, almost, spamming his poison on me. This is making my head ache and my blood boil. Goddamn, trikes need a speed boost or runspeed needs a nerf. I cant take this anymore.
was it fun? if the answer yes, dont complain xD
Stamina Booster > VHC
hope they nerf them to psi booster style some day
I killed someone in a heavy trike once. Trikes are quite faster than people running, so i ran, turned around and killed. I saw a red 113 fly off the head of my opponent after one burst :D
Maloch Octavia
13-06-04, 21:38
No, he's completely correct. Same happened to me in my Rhino the other day, an APU was chasing me, spamming me with HL, and I simply couldn't shake him. Every time I had to turn, or take a hill, he caught back up with me.
Now Challenger MkII battle tanks can go at about 30-40mph, I can run, max, at about 16mph, before falling flat on my face, so why is this not the case in Neocron? It should be fixed, they are simply far, far, far too slow.
Yet if you nerf Runspeed, you'll make a lot of people unhappy, so it's time to nerf Stamina Boosters. The fact that you have people saying: "Don't bother with End, just use Boosters.." Tells you it's fucked up.
Totally agree with you Maloch. The ability to run fast should be something you would have to manage with some thought behind it.
fix Stamina boosters to recharge. Slow down stamina recharge a bit. Have more points you put into END affects the regen rate so it's worth putting points in
ADJUST acceleration of certain vehicles . ..the max speeds could do with a little tweaking but if you hit something and stop or what not it takes a bit to get up to speed.
I agree, increase vehicle speed and acceleration (except hovertech).
Talking about that, i once got killed in the clan apt. by a hybrid, okay zone bug, thats the first, i couldent c him, so i just went in, suddenly i got a energy halo on me, and there was not even one i local, i looked the apt. arround and there was nobody o_O then i got killed and run up there again and saw him still up there and hammerd him, but before that he was invicble to me.
Maloch Octavia
13-06-04, 22:27
The acceleration idea I like, so if you're panning it across a flat space, you belt it along after a few seconds, with what, 0-35 in eight seconds?
To argue against the SBoosters, and why they're wrong, just now, I'm training to join the UK Armed Forces. I don't go out jogging and think "If I get tired halfway round, I'll just pop some pills..."
I need to go with: "The longer and farther I run, the higher my endurance, the longer I can run for, rinse and repeat."
Besides, any drugs I took would take a few minutes to kick in, not instantly.
(Don't do drugs kids, they give you a smally willy and destroy your heart and brain)
Talking about that, i once got killed in the clan apt. by a hybrid, okay zone bug, thats the first, i couldent c him, so i just went in, suddenly i got a energy halo on me, and there was not even one i local, i looked the apt. arround and there was nobody o_O then i got killed and run up there again and saw him still up there and hammerd him, but before that he was invicble to me.
:wtf: Is it just me or does that have nothing to do with this thread :wtf:
Anyway. IMO Vehicles need to have 150% of the speed they currently have. Not including the hovertec which I think in it's current state is good.
Although personally i tink the hovertech shoudl strafe with left and right keys and turn with the mouse. It makes more sense. Wheeled vehicles can't strafe but the hovertechs should.
whats the point of speed boosts if the zones are as big as a ice cube? speed nerf all the way, gentanks need to be way way slower, and so does every other damn class. Monks should't be able to sprint as fast as a car, in my opinion they should be really slow speed should be:
Vehicles > Spies > PEs > Tanks > Monks
Stamina boosters needs to be REMOVED period. Endurance should increase regeneration rate AND capacity. MC Tanks and HC Tanks move way too fast for the damage they deal. Monks are okay but they still move a bit faster then they should considering they are meant to suck in the agility sense. Spies definetely should run fastest because they are light, and low armoured. PEs should come next to a spie but should get a slight nerf as well.
I know it sounds harsh but all PAs should bring an agility nerf, including the spie ones. It encourages people to not use PAs, and opens a lot more selection for the vest slot.
In general speed nerfs would fix a lot of issues, however there are so many balance issues I don't even know where to start. Maybe start with nerfing melee and giving rifles a boost.
and keep the vehicles same speed and slow everything else down.
It really sucks that op fights which can be something so grand with vehicles and a fine interaction of different class roles, are only a huge brawl between tanks and monks nowadays it makes me weep.
Things that need to be brought to use in the greater picture: PEs, Spies, rifles and vehicles.
jesus screw holovests. neocron is broken in so many ways I only realized when I started playing something else.
Yesh.
Good idea Ammy... (sorry)
Why should spies be faster than PEs?
Yesh.
Good idea Ammy... (sorry)
Why should spies be faster than PEs?
Spies have less armour, and health (well slightly anyway), and they are meant to pack a lot more agility. though I agree the base problem is that a well setup spy has literally PE like defences.
but why should spies not be faster then PEs?
Well, because spies have alot less cons than PEs, and need to specialise more in PC/RC to cap their rares so their average runspeed is likely to be less than PEs.
yea but judge what they are talking about and I think would be good though it would need alot of other changes for balance is a HARD run cap per class. Meaning there is a max number of points you can put in for running. Of course mabye you can use imps to increase speed but that sacrifices something else which would be fine. defense and natural resistance to certain things would need to be added to classes imo if that happened.
Anyhow let's be realistic right now and just talk about vehicle speeds :P although stamboosters working like psi boosters will help with the problem.
oh yeah and I think it should be
vehicles - spys - PEs - monks - tanks
Although tanks should be able to take ALOT more punishment and move slow but deal moderate dmg with AOE weapons but if you get right next to them they will do insane dmg that will be sure to destroy most any class in no time. I think Tanks should be the heavy fighter that's a force to be reakon with but moves up slowly but holds their ground.
easy enough to fix.
change it to:
Athletics + strength = runspeed
Agility + dexterity = strafe speed
Endurance + constution = stamina regeneration rate and stamina level,
I have no problem with stamina boosters but they should make them psi booster style, gradual recuperation.
They also need to increase the general polling rate of the client <-> server relationship. Nerfing runspeed will help but vehicles still move too fast for the rate at which the client samples your current status and updates the server. That won't help people that play via dialup or in the US (200ms pings anyone?) but it will do a lot to alleviate the problem with warping.
Well, because spies have alot less cons than PEs, and need to specialise more in PC/RC to cap their rares so their average runspeed is likely to be less than PEs.
I did say they "should" not they are faster. PEs should have more endurance compared to spies, so spies can only run very fast for a small amount of time. I have no idea how it would be implemented, just a suggestion but tanks should have highest endurance. Thats if they follow the remove stamina booster thing.
Thats the way I see it spies should be excellent for light quick scouting and pulling distances from enemies quickly for example a melee tank, while PEs should not be able to do it as well as a spy, instead he on the other hand can stand a few more shots and last longer for prolonged sessions. As the spy should not be the class to be in long fights.
however the balance is well screwed up now, because the damage output and monk foreign cast shiels makes the situation a lot worse. I won't bother explaining for the 500000 times why removing foreign cast shields and improving rifle damage would balance the game.
My ultimate balance project:
I think we should have a hard cap on agility for every class, and the athletics should be nerfed so it only affects forward runspeed, and jumps. So it means that agility is for strafing, and backwards as it should be. It would make perfect sense for the spies to be able to strafe a lot better then the tank.
I suggest nerf the pistol damage down ridiculously. It should be the weapon with worst damage.
Whilst slowing down speed of people, I highly suggest that we impose a base class agility gap. Then afterwards I suggest we make shields self cast only. This would put everything into balance. At least everything I can think of. e.g melee tanks will be slow as mollases now, however HC tanks would still be slower due to the PA agility negative. this opens opportunity for the Pe and Hc melee which can run faster but do lower damage. APUs will not be the foot soldier anymore, they need to play support now they will do the highest damage, but cannot afford to be hit. So people need to take care of the APUs as they do the damage and antibuff, instead of the demigods they become with ppus right now.
I don't see how my idea would be unbalanced, any suggestions would be welcome cause there must be something wrong with it.
metalangel
13-06-04, 23:24
I know what you mean about this, it's insane, I was once chased across three zones by an APU being halo'd in my Wheeler, I only managed to shake him when I got onto a road and was able to accelerate to top speed on level ground. It was NOT fun, it was sheer panic, because we all know how well the vehicles in Neocron climb hills (not very).
Movement-speed nerfs are needed, I agree, this game is as fast as many pure-deathmatch FPS games in terms of pace but the rest of the game doesn't support this speed. Unfortunately, properly fast vehicles would have to move at just about the speed of the Hovertech... which means zones will be crossed in under 30 seconds... under 15 if you're lucky or have the wind at your back :D
Maloch Octavia
13-06-04, 23:28
Hmmmmmmm.... Had a think and realised an issue...
We need to focus on the Stamina Boosters. Nothing else.
We need to get rid of them, or turn them into the equivalent of Psi-Boosters with the slow regen.
Why?
Because if we tamper with the runspeed, we risk destroying the PvP element. That fast and furious death-match style will be replaced with static turret combat, as you wont achieve anything by running around.
So the Runspeed is fine, but we simply need to increase the vehicles by half what they do now (Except Hover), and make the Stamina Boosters more reasonable, forcing people to get End.
metalangel
14-06-04, 00:17
It's not really death-match style if you run in circles around each other for 30 seconds frantically stabbing medkit and boost keys, get killed, and spend the next 20 minutes in Plaza shouting for a poker.
Maybe I'm getting old, but I prefer the somewhat less manic pace of BF1942 over the lightning rounds of stuff like Quake.
(Don't do drugs kids, they give you a smally willy and destroy your heart and brain)
Silenteye looks down... That must explain, why!
Heavyporker
14-06-04, 01:39
I agree with maloch - just focus on vehicle speed and stamina booster gain-rate.
Trying to tinker with more than that just spins out of control. Not to mention many of those other ideas really put me off.
I got a worse story than ya guys - My H-C PE just specced to use a heavy trike about two, three months ago. He was at the MB finishing up some cyclops missions when a pker comes up and starts shooting. I land a couple hits on the first run-by, since he was in front of my escape route, so I keep on going. Pedal to the fucking metal, curving around hills for cover. Bad news.... he keeps running and shooting at me. I soon die, and my trike blows up shortly.
What pissed me off so much about this? he was a H-C gentank in PA! Blue PA, no less. With CS out. Now tell me what's wrong with this.
Nerfed stamina boosters will completely knack both M-C and H-C tanks. Endurance under CON isn't an option, with no shelter, Tanks depend on their CON completely, and can't afford to start spending points in endurance. Besides, everyone would just switch to tech weapons which don't drain stamina, so it would only really nerf Tanks and low-tech weapons. Monks wouldn't even notice it at all. If you made it so you couldn't regen as fast as it drains from sprinting (which is probably the central part of nerfing it) then a Tank simply wouldn't be able to move and fire at the same time. Granted, perhaps they shouldn't be moving and firing at the same time, but that's a core NC combat issue. You can't just change that overnight - it would need a complete overhaul of the combat system.
EDIT: Er, Heavy, when Tanks had blue PA, vehicle speed was dependant on FPS.
Heavyporker
14-06-04, 02:58
I mean the level 2 pa, I still refer to them as blue pas. The gentank's level made it pretty clear he was using the level 2.
... Tanks depend on their CON completely, and can't afford to start spending points in endurance. .....
lol, yea better support cookie cutter setup them support those poor guys spending 100 skill points to VHC :wtf:
or better say it this way. drivers dont like to die AND loose their mainweapon when all other just die. hmm and no i dont like that idea of free VHC and no i donl tlike the "my bike return to ASG when destroyed" option.
Right now, rhino's are outrun by most classes, trikes can be kept up with, and the thing is people without a vehicle seem to zone in faster then the ones with, so, each time you zone, they catch up.
The only thing that it feel outruns people is the hovertech.
I suggested having nitro boosters on vehicles, atleast only for a quick fix. Nobody seemed to like that idea.
lol, yea better support cookie cutter setup them support those poor guys spending 100 skill points to VHC :wtf:
or better say it this way. drivers dont like to die AND loose their mainweapon when all other just die. hmm and no i dont like that idea of free VHC and no i donl tlike the "my bike return to ASG when destroyed" option.No, you don't understand my point. If you nerf stamina boosters, two things will happen.
1) Spies and PEs will switch to energy based weapons, e.g. Healing Light, Disruptor, Beam of Hell, Slasher, because they don't drain stamina. Judge also doesn't drain stamina. So they only use up stamina from running, and with a full pool they would probably manage a full 1v1 with one booster and never have to stop.
2) By contrast, all H-C weapons use 10 stamina per burst (well, it used to be 10 and was reduced a while ago to about 8, but I haven't checked it exactly). So Tanks won't be able to switch to non-stamina draining weapons, because they don't have any. Combined with running, it means H-C Tanks currently have to pop a stamina booster roughly after every clip. Because of the way the system works, it is flatly impossible to empty a Gat cannon clip while running, which renders Gat cannons effectively useless in PvP.
Currently Tanks vs PEs and Spies are fairly balanced fights. The CS is currently balanced vs Exec and Slasher, so PEs using Judge and Lib are at a disadvantage, but otherwise it's pretty much even. This proposal will completely shaft that. To get any worthwhile return in end requires a lot of investment. If every Tank suddenly has to lose 20 in every resist or 100 HP, that's a massive nerf to their defence, which means Tanks will be completely wasted by Spies and PEs in combat. That's before even considering M-C Tanks, which I understand now drain their stamina faster than H-C.
So my point is, if you go ahead with the stamina nerf, then Tanks are going to be rendered either very weak defensively, and thus wasted in combat, or be forced to stop after firing a clip, perhaps even only fire while stood still, which means they'll get wasted in combat vs. Spies and PEs who are less affected.
Therefore, if you want to do it, then combat between Tanks, Spies and PEs will have to be rebalanced all over again.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.3 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.