View Full Version : THREADS MERGED - Spies are abusing the Spirit Mod Mechanics
In the last two or three days... I've seen things I never thought I'd see before. I've seen spies become more powerful than APUs when fighting PPUs single-handedly.
In the very short time we've had this last patch, I have seen three spies single-handedly take down a PPU using a spirit-modded sniper rifle and then use another weapon to finish them off. I've also seen two or three PPUs hit at OP wars, which then proceed to go down INSTANTLY with no warning of what's happened to them.
Do you know what the problem is with this? They're all doing it at point-blank range.
Spies are ABUSING the mechanics of the spirit mod and the sniper rifle.
The Silent Hunter is no longer a sniper rifle designed to hit quietly from a distance, allowing you to snipe your ammunition into their unprotected flesh.
Do you know what it is now? It's a two second anti-buff, with NO effect for the PPU to look out for. There's nothing to warn in his head, "Uh oh, time to re-shelter".
I always rallied for spies to become more powerful on the battlefield, I have a spy that I started on December 25, 2002 that I have yet to delete. I love my spy, and I'm always asking for things that might help level the playing field for him. At first, I was happy to hear about something like this, but after seeing these results, I'm extremely dissapointed in KKs decision to move it from Deflector to Shelter.
I suggest moving the effect back to Deflector. I know there's already a ton of nerf threads, but this NEEDS to be dealt with. Spies now have the absolute best anti-buff weapon in the game, topping out at a total time of two seconds, with no visible warning to the PPU.
Has anyone else witnessed the things I have talked about yet?
Shadow Dancer
12-06-04, 19:18
O_o
I'm sorry, but I question the skill of those ppus. Yes there's no big yellow disco ball or sign that says "YOU'VE BEEN ANTIBUFFED", but if a ppu is being attacked by a RIFLER and DIES before getting his shelter up, then I seriously question the ppu's skill.
Now if it was HL that was attacking him after the spirit anti, then I could understand. But another mere rifle? And the ppu dies to that 1 spy? Pfffttttt.
How on earth does a ppu go down "instantly" from one spy? Sorry I don't buy it. I think you're exaggerating. O_o
I think it's fine the way it is. Spies now can actually be feared in op wars. ONOS!
I thought the ammo couldn't be cloned anyways?
Well, knowing when to reshelter when hit by a spirit modded SH is about as easy as knowing when to rebuff when you have about a hojillion poison stacks on you...except something can be done about the poison stacks...so yes, I don't think its current implementation can last.
Shadow Dancer
12-06-04, 19:20
Well, knowing when to reshelter when hit by a spirit modded SH is about as easy as knowing when to rebuff when you have about a hojillion poison stacks on you...except something can be done about the poison stacks...so yes, I don't think its current implementation can last.
Yes but you can notice your lack of shelter when you start getting hit by FL or Disruptor. And FL/Disruptor does not kill a ppu "instantly". If a ppu can't heal/shelter before a FL/Disruptor kills them, then something is wrong there.
trigger hurt
12-06-04, 19:25
I'd say it might be bad if:
1- It wasnt a spy who you said killed the ppu. That ppu must be really bad.
2- Are spirit mods that popular that everyone has it and it's going to throw the balance of the game way off?
Psychoninja
12-06-04, 19:26
A ppu has more on his mind than himself, try everyone else at the OP war.
I really think some people should play a PPU to know how much of a pain it can be to manage buffing 3 - 5 people by yourself at a fight, and trying not to forget about buffing yourself.
Shadow Dancer
12-06-04, 19:31
Yup you're right. And?
I'm glad there's another method to take down PPUs. Finally, not just apus anymore.
GO SPIES!
I have seen three spies single-handedly take down a PPU using a spirit-modded sniper rifle and then use another weapon to finish them off
How is that amazing? its 3 vs 1 and they are using a ultra rare item.
This is not abuse... Its about right.
Richard Blade
12-06-04, 19:40
Spies at op fights will no longer be ignored with contempt.
The way I usually see things go, the spy is ignored until they make themselves a severe pain. Then, some apu backhands them a couple times and they drop.
A spy with a sniper rifle is very obvious. If a ppu see's one, watch your shelter. [Edit-- A lot of people are on TeamSpeak, just tell your mates a rifle spy is present and they'll kill him.]
A lot of things get changed in this game. Some of those things take people by surprise. It just takes a little getting used to.
Let's not nerf it before it has a chance to get into the evolution of fighting.
Oh, I have two spies, pistol and drone.
Shadow Dancer
12-06-04, 19:42
Let's not nerf it before it has a chance to get into the evolution of fighting.
Amen. Everyone thought antishelter would be the "end" of ppus, and blah blah blah. Let's give this a chance.
hehe
I shit you not, aside from one of them at MB, they were all very good PPUs. I think they died because they had absolutely no idea it was coming. The fact is, a monk drops very fast without shields, whether they be APU or PPU.
And no, I wish I was exaggerating here.
I don't even have a PPU. I actually despise them. But this just feels wrong on so many levels. When a PPU is trying to take care of 6 people in an OP fight, and he's hit by a spirit bullet, how is he to know his only line of defense to FIRE, ENERGY, and XRAY has just been taken from him????
And by the way... Spirit ammo is VERY clonable. I was recently given 250 clips of it, from a friend who hunts a lot, and now has around 5,000 clips, he guessed.
Some shit needs to be changed here.
EDIT: God, I meant on three different occasions. I agree that if there were three spies on him, he probably would have deserved to die.
Underground
12-06-04, 19:47
d1sh0n3st says:
ok im canceling my accounts again
Underground says:
You only reactivated yesterday lol...
d1sh0n3st says:
this game is more fucked up now then it was
d1sh0n3st says:
when a fucking spy can do twice the dmg as a tank its not right
d1sh0n3st says:
spirit modded SH + a god damn rog is just fuckin insane
d1sh0n3st says:
1 fucking spy killed wakka because of a long synch
d1sh0n3st says:
so they are getting canceled again because thats just complete bullshit
*sigh*
Shadow Dancer
12-06-04, 19:48
Nvidia, there have been times when I surprise debuffed a PPU and started pounding on him with HL. I mean like totally caught them off guard, and sometimes they manage to shelter up even though I'm hitting them every single hit and not missing.
Now you wanna tell me, that "very good" ppus died to ONE spy(as you claim)who wields RIFLES? Even my apu can take some punishment from rifles. Now a ppu who has more health, somehow dies before he can get a heal or shelter off to a frikkin RIFLE? Come on man help me out here. I trust your judgement, but this I just can't buy. I'm talking about the incident where you said 1 spy took down 1 ppu who is "very good". I can understand the op war situation(and even then I think it's ok), but damnit man singlehandedly?
Remember this is a new method of debuffing. I'm sure once the good ppus get used to it, they'll be dancing as always. ;)
Did the PPU have a HH running?
If so he should have had enough time to re-shelter.
If not why not?
If it was one-v-one - In the time it takes the spy to swap back to SH, fire and swap back to other weapon the PPU could get a parashock on the spy no probs and in the mean time his heal will get him back to full or near-full health. Once the spy is shocked the PPU is in control of the fight and can fight or flee as he sees fit.
If it was many-v-many then he should have turned his team loose on the spy while he kept his heals running.
If it was many-v-one then it should take a skilled player to win but a PPU has at least as many ways as any other to do so.
I wouldn't go as far as to say the ppu outright sucked if he died because of this, but I have to agree with SD that it would be counterable if you pay attention. I have played a ppu inside and out for a long time and I know how hard it is to keep track of people's buffs in the middle of a fight, but I also learnt that if there was someone in the area who could potentially be a threat, I would keep more of an eye on my shields, unless you have poison stacks filling your screen, you are going to notice the ammount of buffs on you dropping and you suddenly taking more damage just after. If you can see a spy attacking you with a sniper rifle in his hands at close range, what do you think he is going to be doing with it mmm? ;)
Personally I would welcome this kind of new threat on the battlefield, it makes things a little more interesting. Perhaps not as an instant hit, maybe with a small stack timer like anti-drugs but either way is good (although ppus not being relied upon in the first place would be better but meh :p ). People dying so quickly now is only because it's something new people aren't used to, give it a lil while and the genuinly good ppus will be able to handle it fairly well. The only problem is, a lot of ppus rely on their shields to cover themselves, so their resist setups aren't exactly uber, hense some of the worse ones go down like a sack of shit, trust me it IS possible to survive long enough to re-shield, even after a de-buff you didn't see coming (in most situations that is).
How many spirit mods are there per server anyway?
Underground
12-06-04, 19:56
How many spirit mods are there per server anyway?
Probably more then there should be :rolleyes: :(
Shadow Dancer
12-06-04, 19:59
I wouldn't go as far as to say the ppu outright sucked if he died because of this, but I have to agree with SD that it would be counterable if you pay attention. I have played a ppu inside and out for a long time and I know how hard it is to keep track of people's buffs in the middle of a fight, but I also learnt that if there was someone in the area who could potentially be a threat, I would keep more of an eye on my shields, unless you have poison stacks filling your screen, you are going to notice the ammount of buffs on you dropping and you suddenly taking more damage just after. If you can see a spy attacking you with a sniper rifle in his hands at close range, what do you think he is going to be doing with it mmm? ;)
Personally I would welcome this kind of new threat on the battlefield, it makes things a little more interesting. Perhaps not as an instant hit, maybe with a small stack timer like anti-drugs but either way is good (although ppus not being relied upon in the first place would be better but meh :p ). People dying so quickly now is only because it's something new people aren't used to, give it a lil while and the genuinly good ppus will be able to handle it fairly well. The only problem is, a lot of ppus rely on their shields to cover themselves, so their resist setups aren't exactly uber, hense some of the worse ones go down like a sack of shit, trust me it IS possible to survive long enough to re-shield, even after a de-buff you didn't see coming (in most situations that is).
YES exactly. I don't think they sucked, i'm just saying that very good ppus wouldn't have died. Or maybe ppus just need to get used to this. And you're right, alot of ppus don't have good resist setups because they depend so much on shields.
I wish Carinth would post here, he's always talking about that. :p
Everyone needs an audible, positive feedback warning when they've been antibuffed and/or when their buffs wear off. Those icons are too out-of-the way and when one of them disappears it is often simply overlooked. You may say something like "ooo get some skills and learn to watch your buffs" but it is not at all easy watching both the action and then watching for an icon to disappear off the bottom corner of your screen. Its headache inducing.
Loss of buffs, whether by antibuff, spirit gun, or them simply wearing off, should provide an effect that is visible both to the person losing the buffs and the people around him. A disappearing icon is simply not enough feedback.
This is a change that everyone would benefit from, not just PPUs, because it would be more apparent when to request rebuffs, when to rebuff yourself, all that.
my $.02
if this is so even y did they make HAB / HAS have big fuckoff lines coming out of ur hand and a 3 second cast time tell u what lets make it invisible and instant?
Also the fact that a spy can fire one of these every what 2 seconds? can u imagine a antibuff every two seconds
Antibuff..Recast..Antibuff...Recast...Antibuff...reeedead
and?
whose bloody ppu's deserve a slap in the mouth.
and a sniper rifle is the true theng!
bloody buffs on them, took 2 melee's 3 tanks and a pistol PE about 7 seconds just to kill one :lol:
c'mon guys, start screaming nerf, you know you want to..is this gonna be today's ``nerf em`` thread?
Underground
12-06-04, 20:10
and?
whose bloody ppu's deserve a slap in the mouth.
and a sniper rifle is the true theng!
bloody buffs on them, took 2 melee's 3 tanks and a pistol PE about 7 seconds just to kill one :lol:
[ edited ]
Its not that it can kill PPUs, its just that you cant hear it being fired, you cant see it being fired, and you get no indication of your shelter being stripped other then the icon dissapearing.
The gun is being used like its a manual shotgun, then they are switching to ROG or Healing Light and with a Xray mod, they _WILL_ take down a monk really fast...
no this is gonna be todays put it back to they way it was it was fine thread
If there was a spy in an op fight who had the oppertunity to constantly debuff the ppu all the time then his team isn't doing it's job properly. Ppus are the ones looking after their teams, but their teams need to look after them as well. If an apu is debuffing a ppu, his team should help look after the ppu while he recovers, because in the end if he dies, they are likely to die as well. I can't really see spies silently debuffing as being very strong argument IMO, it's not like they're overly tough to kill and it's no different to an apu doing a long-range debuff.
the debuff itself may be instant, but the situation from the ppu's perspective is the same. A spy shoots the ppu with a spirit bullet - shelter gone. An apu starts a debuff at a distance and moves behind a wall, the ppu is most likely too busy at the time to notice something like that so he still gets debuffed as if it were 'instant'. He is taken just as much by suprise, only with both shields and a heal being removed. It's been done a lot more times to me in the past than I care to count and I know some apus in my teams have done it to the enemy as well. Apu debuff range is a lot longer than most people realise, in a lot of cases you can debuff someone from halfway across an outpost if you do it right, and if your inside a building nobody is likely to notice the pretty white lines coming from their hands.
I stand by my previous opinion, the better ppus will learn to handle things like this and will survive them, the worse ppus will complain that it is overpowered, it's the same in almost every major change like this in neocron.
How many spirit mods are there per server anyway?Actually more than there are SHs...the spirit mods were researchable for some time. o_O
Lucid Dream
12-06-04, 21:05
Hmmm well, im kinda impartial, as I uh.. use one... but..
This game is not condusive to sniping, the game mechanics, and the terrain in most places do not allow for propper sniping, so, you have to use the gun in relatively close range. realistically, if the de-shelter attack was changed to de-deflector it would be 100% worse. As it is now, if you want to hurt a ppu on your own, you would have to snipe with SH, then switch to another rare energy based weapon, and start hammering with that. If it was changed back to de-deflector, one hit with spirit sh would drop the ppu 150+ health. 3 shots max and the ppu goes down, thats what, 5 seconds? SH doesnt show blood spatter if you are a decent distance away, so the same ppu that wouldnt notice shelter going down wouldnt notice their health dropping...
Probably more then there should be :rolleyes: :(
Yeah, I just got the gen on this over MSN. There is an exploit issue here and it needs fixing last week. (@SorkZmok - I don't know if that's true or not. I think it's not though.)
@DonnyJepp - Agreed. A text warning when any buff ends just over/under the crosshair would help a lot. Maybe even a 5 second countdown.
Dribble Joy
12-06-04, 22:31
The number of mods per server is irrellevant, just because few have it doen't make any less 'over powered'.
Using snipers at close range is an issue that needs to be addressed.
The problem is that sniper rifles don't make a noise or set off your deflector when they hit you, you have no idea you are being shot without constantly looking at your hp.
Spirit mods also do way to much dmg, almost the normal amount, personnally I think they should not actually do any dmg.
Leave the rifle spies alone ffs... So what if they can kill PPU wth a bit hard work+2 rares in the belts. They still are weak compared to the pistol spy.
The number of mods per server is irrellevant, just because few have it doen't make any less 'over powered'.
Using snipers at close range is an issue that needs to be addressed.I would agree if range meant anything in this game. As it doesn't I see no problem. If KK want to differentiate weapons on range they need to make it mean something.
The problem is that sniper rifles don't make a noise or set off your deflector when they hit you, you have no idea you are being shot without constantly looking at your hp.
Spirit mods also do way to much dmg, almost the normal amount, personnally I think they should not actually do any dmg.I thought they did very little damage but I haven't checked. If they are close to normal then that may be an issue.
I agree some kind of warning would make sense but I still think a PPU that gets caught out this way isn't paying attention though.
Using snipers at close range is an issue that needs to be addressed.
There is no range in the engine right now. Beyond 500 to 800m, the client can't see anything. For a rifle with supposedly 1500 to 3000m range, ANYTHING shot at right now is "close range".
If the mods were researchable and buildable, they should be wiped from the servers (preserving all rifles that have them fitted already).
If the shots "turn off" the shelter Psi icon, then it's up to the PPU to monitor those icons. I do it when I'm down in Storage or the sewers working on my hybrid. If you can't pay attention to those icons, it's your own fault. If the icons don't "go away" right now, then KK's gotta fix that.
it all depends on the situation.. when i was on my hybrid i was fighting a spy lol.. he hit me with SH and i forgot about the spirit mod.. he was hitting me alot with rog after that and did some good damage but i outhealed it with a blessed heal... then realized my shelter was out about 5-10 seconds later recasted and it was all good.. its not overpowered imo.. just be aware of your surroundings and whats going on.. nooo problem :rolleyes:
Needs adjusting...one simple piece of coding and it looks like this
- Spy Class
This weapon is overpowered....you didnt even test it...you released one patch then i remember reading xantor post "why isnt SH removing shelter?" and a couple hours later another patch with SH removing shelter.
If you havent already seen a PE wielding one of these then you have no idea and no reason to post comments in this thread. Put it back to removing deflector, it was ok like that but with it removing shelter it makes a PE/spy more dangerous than an apu towards a ppu...nevermind another PE who cant heal at 70hp a second and recast shelter in no time.
Of course there will be people in favour of keeping SH as it is and i can name some of them if they come into this thread, XaNToR/BLACK SOUL/Naru....all have spirit modded SH's...all PE's...all unbeatable 1 on 1 now, the lowest i could get xantor was to 100hp trying my very very hardest.
We have apu's...we dont need another apu with better resists, let spies have it...most spies suck and the ones that done deserve to have such a good weapon.
Anyway not like KK have ever even posted a comment on my idea's of balance but i can always try o.o
you saw how much dmg a spirit SH does without deflector? O_o
Amen. Everyone thought antishelter would be the "end" of ppus, and blah blah blah. Let's give this a chance.
hehe
I think your being pretty naive...since when is it just a spies weapon...when you see a PE rip another PE up in a few seconds (a PE is weaker than a ppu unbuffed) maybe you will change your mind...at least HAB takes 3 seconds to cast and pretty much emptyies your mana pool to do any serious damage to anyone bar the person you antibuffed.
You know WHY this weapon is overpowered beyond ppu's are? It does the same fucking damage SH does anyway AND removes your shelter...
I want my apu's HAB to do 150 dmg and remove s/d/heal because its an APU that SHOULD be able to kill ppu's the easiest...not a fucking spy or a pe :mad:
its an APU that SHOULD be able to kill ppu's the easiest...not a fucking spy or a pe :mad:Please explain why.
Yeah, i forgot to mention that it does 100 damage to my PE buffed...i only have 400hp anyway...im down to 200hp by the time i cast shelter back on, given i dont fail cast as i wont be just normally stood still and my overpowered oponent is still at full hp.
So let me see... ahh.. it seems the Spy card has been picked this time... How lovely.. o_O o_O
Give it some time ffs. It's like when the antibuff came and my PPU had to adjust to it. Did I whine everytime I was killed cause you didn't think of the antibuff? No I didn't... I gave it time and adjusted myself.
Let's have this discussion when people are getting used to the spirits instead.
Please explain why.
you got a pe?
Apu's are supposed to be that way...it isnt rocket science...man i dont even give a shit...im not going to say spies because ive yet to see a spy with one...only PE's and PE's have resists better than tanks....deal the same damage and now rifle ones can remove shelter from anyone.
Silent Hunter ... quietly
These words can not exist in the same sentence.
I haven't seen it in action yet (and I have one on my spy) so I can't comment on whether it should remove shelter or deflector. However, the fact that it is being used by PEs and even spies as a point-blank combat tool definitely seems contrary to its intended role.
Here’s an idea…
The de-sheltering technology is powerful and draining: perhaps it should parashock and fully drain the stamina of the person who fires it! If you are using it to snipe from afar it won’t bother you that much but if you are right in the thick of it, it can be devastating.
you got a pe?
Yes, two, what does that have to do with anything?
Apu's are supposed to be that way...it isnt rocket science...man i dont even give a shit...im not going to say spies because ive yet to see a spy with one...only PE's and PE's have resists better than tanks....deal the same damage and now rifle ones can remove shelter from anyone.
I see far more spies with SH that PEs. In fact, besides myself, I can only think of one or two I've seen.
What do you see as PE's role exactly?
The problem is not so much what it does as the effect it (does not) create, and the fact that sniper rifles were NOT designed to be used in 0-20 meter combat.
They were implemented to give spies a chance to attack from a distance, but now we have people taking the best of both worlds.
Take current-day combat... how often do you see snipers using their .50 cal Barrets at point blank range to fight the enemy? It simply doesn't happen (and if they did, there would be a VERY messy hole through the enemy :lol: ).
Dribble Joy
13-06-04, 01:37
A spirit modded sh still does 100 dmg to a buffed PE, I saw a crisp 141 come off the head of one PE tonight after he was dbed.
If range meant anything in NC then that point would be relevant.
guess you didn't see two page thread about the spirit mod then? :p :p
Shadow Dancer
13-06-04, 01:44
Spirit SH using pes are unbeatable 1v1?
:wtf:
Dribble Joy
13-06-04, 01:47
Spirit SH using pes are unbeatable 1v1?
:wtf:
They hit you with the SH, then pull out a HL and kill you in 3-4 hits.
Less if they DB you.
Clownst0pper
13-06-04, 01:47
If a player has there shelter removed, just rebuff :confused:
A good PPU should never ever die to a lone spy with a silent hunter, if you do your shit, and why shouldnt a PE be able to use a silent hunter with spirit mod?
OH and besides the fact its like rocking horse shit to get the ammo - Or is it cloneable now?
Shadow Dancer
13-06-04, 01:49
I think your being pretty naive..
No I'm not. I'm just talking about spies. I didn't say it was a spy only weapon, but that's what this thread is about. I'm only talking about spies ATM.
...when you see a PE rip another PE up in a few seconds (a PE is weaker than a ppu unbuffed) maybe you will change your mind...at least HAB takes 3 seconds to cast and pretty much emptyies your mana pool to do any serious damage to anyone bar the person you antibuffed.
You know WHY this weapon is overpowered beyond ppu's are? It does the same fucking damage SH does anyway AND removes your shelter...
I want my apu's HAB to do 150 dmg and remove s/d/heal because its an APU that SHOULD be able to kill ppu's the easiest...not a fucking spy or a pe :mad:
HAB doesn't empty your mana pool. I have 373 mana, I have like 150 mana left when HAB is done.
If it's really that much of an issue with SH, I'm sure they can make SH spy only. I'm not suggesting they do, I'm saying that COULD be done. So all you pes out there, don't flame me. :D :D
Like I said before... Spirit Ammo is VERY clonable right now. I don't even have a mod and someone gave me 250 clips. I was kinda surprised and asked how much more he had. He told me, "About 5,000 clips. I've been cloning like mad since the last patch."
Now, if you couldn't clone this ammo, it wouldn't be a problem really. But now everyone has a couple thousand clips of ammo. It wouldn't matter if they changed it back now because everyone still has enough to last em a character's lifetime.
If they make it unclonable, I suggest wiping the ammo except for 5 clips or so and having people start over again.
It actually is quite amusing/sad to see just how quickly a spirit SH using spy can take down a ppu. I saw the incident at MB today first hand. ONE spy versus ONE ppu. I can't even imagine how fast the ppu would have gone down if the spy had an apu with him. In 1vs1's, i don't see how a PE could kill a spy. IMPOSSIBLE at the moment. Hit the PE once with the spirit mod, and then pull out a healing light and suddenly the PE goes down just as fast as an apu. Do i think this should be removed though? NO. Reworked? Yes. As a ppu, a spirit mod weilding spy is scary as all hell :)
Shadow Dancer
13-06-04, 01:57
If they make it unclonable, I suggest wiping the ammo except for 5 clips or so and having people start over again.
:rolleyes:
Why should one of the rifle spy's special skills be so damn rare? That is silly. Make holy heal and holy shelter that rare then. FFS, the apu's antishelter is frikkin STOREBOUGHT!
Shadow and Nvidia:
As much as your ideas work in theory, i think changing game mechanics to work based on limited amounts of a certain item or ammo is the wrong way to go about it and will never work. Or even making something spy only in this case just won't change the fact that it is right now out of sorts.
Shadow Dancer
13-06-04, 02:00
Shadow and Nvidia:
As much as your ideas work in theory, i think changing game mechanics to work based on limited amounts of a certain item or ammo is the wrong way to go about it and will never work. Or even making something spy only in this case just won't change the fact that it is right now out of sorts.
Huh? I never said make it rare.
I don't think it is out of sorts right now. Although AliG brings up an interesting point now. But as far as spies vs ppus, I don't think it's out of sorts.
lets give every silent hunter with a s pirit mod on it a giant electric blue disco ball that stretches acrossed the entire zone, just so ppu's don;t have to manage their buffs. :rolleyes:
Shadow Dancer
13-06-04, 02:12
lets give every silent hunter with a s pirit mod on it a giant electric blue disco ball that stretches acrossed the entire zone, just so ppu's don;t have to manage their buffs. :rolleyes:
HAHAHHAHAHA
Exactly, sheeesh. :lol:
1# Spies can shoot it with no loss if they miss
2# They basically anti buff for no reason hows a bullet going to take off shelter?
3# PE's can use it yes and cap it just like a spy can this is so abuse.
KK make spirit take deflector off instead of shelter this is lame
kthxbye
1# Spies can shoot it with no loss if they miss
2# They basically anti buff for no reason hows a bullet going to take off shelter?
3# PE's can use it yes and cap it just like a spy can this is so abuse.
KK make spirit take deflector off instead of shelter this is lame
kthxbye
What he said and its either him or his bro that has a spirit modded SH on his PE (i think).
Clownstopper....you cant just rebuff at the click of a button on a PE...the MAX you can get is 37/min (ALL psu in int) which yes, is pretty damn quick (im 33/min) but then we take the 330% ~ pe's can get MAX on shelter (unless they use BR2)
When i was fighting xantor...he hit me, pulled his healing light...shot me some..i was rebuffing at the time (lost 100hp, already lost 100hp from being hit from SH anyway) ...i dbed him...pulled my weapon while he had SH out again...i managed to hit him quite alot...then i got shelter removed again ...had to rebuff...failed my shelter. I was dead. This is a setup fight..where i have full mana before fight, to recast shelter/incase i fail shelter and it was one of the hardest fights ever...i never thought id have to take a ppu's fucking role and add it along with my pe's role of killing.
As im sure there are to many people with spirit modded SH's on there pe's im sure it will never get put to Spy class only because of the few spoilt kids that have them now so i think this would work - 2 nerfs : numero 1 ) It removes shelter with zero damage. Numero 2 ) it has no reticle unless in Zoom mode (Has no recticle in 3rd person Zoomed or not zoomed), THEN it is a fucking snipe weapon and not a pistol.
Huh? I never said make it rare.
I don't think it is out of sorts right now. Although AliG brings up an interesting point now. But as far as spies vs ppus, I don't think it's out of sorts.
I was referring to your post of making it spy only.
Here’s an idea…
The de-sheltering technology is powerful and draining: perhaps it should parashock and fully drain the stamina of the person who fires it! If you are using it to snipe from afar it won’t bother you that much but if you are right in the thick of it, it can be devastating.Any comments on this possible solution?
i would suggest to nerf xanthor :0
Shadow Dancer
13-06-04, 04:26
Any comments on this possible solution?
If it's gonna have that ENORMOUS penalty, it should take away heal and deflector as well.
:angel:
If it's gonna have that ENORMOUS penalty, it should take away heal and deflector as well.If you are sniping from a distance, it won't really matter if shooting the Spirit mod drains your stamina and parashocks you. You have time to pop a booster/drug or wait for it to wear off. However, if you are using it point-blank as Nvidia said spies and PEs are doing, then being parashocked and losing all stamina from each shot is indeed devastating. I think this would definitely stop people from using it as a dueling weapon while still allowing sniper spies to have a very powerful effect as part of a team fight.
Shadow Dancer
13-06-04, 07:07
If you are sniping from a distance, it won't really matter if shooting the Spirit mod drains your stamina and parashocks you. You have time to pop a booster/drug or wait for it to wear off. However, if you are using it point-blank as Nvidia said spies and PEs are doing, then being parashocked and losing all stamina from each shot is indeed devastating. I think this would definitely stop people from using it as a dueling weapon while still allowing sniper spies to have a very powerful effect as part of a team fight.
Yes but parashock is annoying, and being forced to take a stupid drug everytime you shoot with the SH would be annoying.
How about making it so that SH only works in zoom mode? Or maybe that's annoying too. hehe
Lucid Dream
13-06-04, 07:19
Yes but parashock is annoying, and being forced to take a stupid drug everytime you shoot with the SH would be annoying.
How about making it so that SH only works in zoom mode? Or maybe that's annoying too. hehe
Christ no, even at long ranges i dont use the zoom..
problem is, this game does not work with ranged fighting, it just dosnt. OPs with good sniping or even just good rifleing places are few and far between, you are usually forced to shoot from on top of the hack room.. often, you HAVE to play in close range, its not abuse of mechanics, its juse use of mechanics.
Shadow Dancer
13-06-04, 07:22
Christ no, even at long ranges i dont use the zoom..
problem is, this game does not work with ranged fighting, it just dosnt. OPs with good sniping or even just good rifleing places are few and far between, you are usually forced to shoot from on top of the hack room.. often, you HAVE to play in close range, its not abuse of mechanics, its juse use of mechanics.
I agree with you, which is why I think it's fine atm.
Maybe all the weapons in the game need to have their range toned down SIGNIFICANTLY? But still, as long as runspeed stays the same it will still be a problem, perhaps even moreso.
Would an APU tank be abusing mechanics for not using heal....
And if you actually do move, then NO ONE can hit every shot with a SH, and let´s face it.. a spy isn´t really that hard to kill..
So no, they are not abusing the Spirit Mod.... They are adjusting to the things they have to help them.
The spirit mod is in my opinion only a fair addition to the world of the spy, and the gimped pe.
If you fear the SH shots of a spy/pe... then just go take him down first..
Yes I honestly mean that... If they are such a threat to you in combat.. then take them down first...
Hell, 1v1, a spy shot my /42 PPU at MB a few days ago, with SH, and he couldn't kill me. That's not a problem.
It's op fights. Watching 6 other people's buffs, health, etc PLUS watching your OWN buffs/heals, it's hard to keep your team alive while your constantly fucking watching your OWN buffs to make sure some pissant spy doesn't use a spirit mod on you mid-fight.
I'm all for giving spies a bigger role in fighting, esp. op fights.
And to the person who said 'rifle spots at ops are few and far between', you just have to use the terrain, your stealth, and some anti-stealth drugs to move around, take your shots, run off and find another spot. Always keep moving.
Maybe if you can't keep your team buffed and whatnot despite the actions of a petty spy, you need to rethink your character? All you need to do is keep moving and bob throughout the crowd and the sh using spy is going to have one good time trying to target ya...
Why should one of the rifle spy's special skills be so damn rare? That is silly. Make holy heal and holy shelter that rare then. FFS, the apu's antishelter is frikkin STOREBOUGHT!
yes, but we are talking bout spies here. Spies are not allovved to kill nibbish Iwanttogodmodeandroflonoeskos@myenemy ppus.
tomparadox
13-06-04, 08:50
i agree with shadow, spys arnt real good for anything else but snipering/tradeskilling, unless your one of the few out there who can actuly use a spy to its full potential...
btw 2ply please read your PM :)=p
A thought just came to me, why is it when something happens to a PPU, everyone jumps on the bandwagon "they must be a shit ppu" ?
I mean seriously it takes time and good knowledge of the game to become a polarity or another great ppu, there are a lot of people in this game today are not like that, but do play a ppu, does this mean that the game is designed for only the uber ultra hardcore pvp'ers? the one's that know everything about the game to such extreme's to get one over on another player, or should the game be good and balanced for everyone, regardless?
I say the later, you can't expect every single player to know everything in this game, and to think such is pointless, so when we see something hitting a ppu and they die, do we automatically think they are shit? wasn't there another reason? maybe something is to powerful, maybe something wasn't thought through before being implemented into the game "like thats not happened before" Sure if a ppu is completely buffed up to the eye balls and they die to a single player, something is wrong with their setup maybe, but when you got a ppu who has played for at least a few months dieing to something that is badly added to the game without thought and a care, and never tested on the test center, then thats wrong. If it takes something like this to hit retail before people pipe up about it then KK and those players who use test center are not doing their job, nothing should hit retail without a proper testing on all angles of it.
Are you telling me that no one tested a SH using spirit mod on test center up close on a ppu to test the speed in which they are debuffed? of course they did, and as per normal more than likely kept it to themselves in the vain hope to get one up on their enemy, such a sad way to play.
If we must see another class get one over on the ppu, then at least give the ppu warning just like the anti buff, a sound effect i would suggest, as it is meant to be a weapon used from a distance, so some sort of scream maybe for when they are up close can be heard by the ppu and others around them. Otherwise leave it as a distance thing for the SH, after all the spy is meant to be using this at range, allowing them to be pointblank range in a right with a SH is unbalanced yet again :rolleyes:
Great thinking by great minds KK, well tested yet again
........the power of immortality requires skills....
personally I don´t have a problem with this.
So yes.. my vote would be that.. if you don´t practice enough to be uber elite hardcore extreme PPU, then you just aren´t ready to go PvPing with that char.
Train Train Train Train Train Train Train Train...
tomparadox
13-06-04, 09:13
i have a ppu thats almost imposible to kill, iv stood in the lvl 3 tunnels, with everything shooting me, and i still lived... ppus need a nerf, because if someoen takes the time to make a setup for one like i did, mine has 99% fire/enr/xray and about 60 or so poisen resist, with the resist buffs and combat buffs i have over 400 health. i can runcast ANY spell in the game, holy rezz cath sanct... and i cap EVERY spell that i know of... if someone takes the time to make a setup like that like i have, and is good useing it, its almost imposible to kill them... thats why we should have spys with spiret moded SHs
Spy using SH at point blank range with no warning to anyone = wrong
Spy using SH at distance with no warnign to anyone = right
Spy using SH at point blank range with warning "graphic or sound" = right
Spy using SH debuffing PPU faster than a APU = wrong
Exploiting is what this is to me, be it a fact that KK have no tested this properly and people are going to use it to its fullest now untill KK do something about it, its not meant to be like this, people know about it and will use it.
ITs like the old UG turrets, we know about it, used it, people moaned about it, it destroyed a part of the game, KK knew about it, said it was a exploit, took ages to fix it, but i bet it was on test center for ages and no one tested it.
Same thing here.
But i do agree with you para about PPU, they can be impossible to kill, even with a crackteam of APU's stagger debuffing, a solid PPU will keep himself alive, but you know my old theory, foriegn cast holy heal anyone? :eek:
tomparadox
13-06-04, 09:44
But i do agree with you para about PPU, they can be impossible to kill, even with a crackteam of APU's stagger debuffing, a solid PPU will keep himself alive, but you know my old theory, foriegn cast holy heal anyone? :eek:
nah, keep heal the same, make def/shelt self cast only, IMO the def and shelt should be for the PPU only to keep himself alive. get rid of the damn para, and jest make it heeals, resist bosters caths and crap that are castable on others...
Spy using SH at point blank range with no warning to anyone = wrong
Spy using SH at distance with no warnign to anyone = right
Spy using SH at point blank range with warning "graphic or sound" = right
Spy using SH debuffing PPU faster than a APU = wrong
Exploiting is what this is to me, be it a fact that KK have no tested this properly and people are going to use it to its fullest now untill KK do something about it, its not meant to be like this, people know about it and will use it.
ITs like the old UG turrets, we know about it, used it, people moaned about it, it destroyed a part of the game, KK knew about it, said it was a exploit, took ages to fix it, but i bet it was on test center for ages and no one tested it.
IMO thats all there good for almost is tradeskilling and snipering/spirect moded SH, take a buffed pistol spy, buffed apu, the apu will win, even if its a rifle spy the apu will win...
the problem with apus is, the ppu can see the debuff spell casted, so he has time to start casting his shelter then deflector, so then right when its done casting, his buffs go up again... an apu vs a good ppu, the ppu can jest stand there the hole time, and not wory about anything... in other words the apu will run out of sta bosters before he can kill the good ppu, even if he has anibuff, why? because the ppu is good for 1, but 2 is because his anti buff spell gives him away, it takes longer than a HL, looks diferent from the rare enr barrel, so the ppu *should* know what it is, and start recasting buffs...in the time it takes the apu to switch weapons, and actuly start hiting the ppu after anti buff, the ppu already has his buffs up... i rarely see people use anti buff because its useless agensed a good ppu, but spiret mod, is more frequent, because it + teaming the ppu is sometimes the ONLY way to kill him. i meen shit, iv stood on my ppu unbuffed, and outhealed a rifle spy, i buffed, and he was doing about 1 dmg, when it actuly detected he was doing dmg :)
i agree with shadow, spys arnt real good for anything else but snipering/tradeskilling
I disagree, for fuck sake, my spy has defened outposts with one PPU in my ass and killed 7 or 8 attackers who had a PPU and a vehicle there.
Why does spirit strip shelter anyway? Make it pierece through s/d not reducing damage, but not stripping them.
I don't have a huge problem with the mod, but I haven't been in combat with the new one. The old one was not a problem for me. IMO It's a huge annoyance, and will probably result in my death a few times. *shrug* However, I think there is a huge imbalance between spy anti-shelter, and apu anti-shelter.
Spies, take 2 seconds, while apus take a bit under 4 at best.
Spies, do this silently, while apus have a near rez animation.
Spies, could theoretically move more than apus, while debuffing.
Spies, have the ability to stealth when in trouble and with drugs/ppu buffs, really good resists. Apus could possibly get up there with drugging spies, but still can't stealth, and have less hp.
It's not feasible to go after the spy, who'll stealth, wasting valuable time as their team starts to take you apart. Especially if the spy is debuffing EVERYONE. To me this only says if they have a spirit mod spy, people need to bring more ppus O_o
Basically if it's going to stay as shelter removal, I'd like to see some of these things to be balanced out. I would be very happy if they made it deflector though :)
I haven't seen the Spirit Mod in action, but as a Spy I can say that I'm happy that I no longer feel completely and utterly useless in OP fights.
Before I was only there to hack, and maybe take a few potshots at a PE or something, but if the enemy ever decided to start shooting me I was dead. Now, when spies get ONE advantage over everyone else, ONE THING that they can do to help in a fight, everyone is up and bitching about it.
Anyway, like I said I haven't seen it in action yet, but please, ffs, don't nerf it to the point where spies are only good for hackin' and tradeskillin' again. And don't give me that crap about certain spies who pwn melee tanks in PvP and stuff. Those guys are the EXCEPTION, whereas basically every other class in the game stands a good chance versus any other class without having to be godlike at PvP.
sh = 24 min at cap which takes about 210 rc, however most spies to my knowledge get 20-22 rof on it, which has the possibility of being faster than the oh so fast 21/min cap on hab... which makes them both about 3 seconds give or take a few milis
i have a ppu thats almost imposible to kill, iv stood in the lvl 3 tunnels, with everything shooting me, and i still lived... ppus need a nerf, because if someoen takes the time to make a setup for one like i did, mine has 99% fire/enr/xray and about 60 or so poisen resist, with the resist buffs and combat buffs i have over 400 health. i can runcast ANY spell in the game, holy rezz cath sanct... and i cap EVERY spell that i know of... if someone takes the time to make a setup like that like i have, and is good useing it, its almost imposible to kill them... thats why we should have spys with spiret moded SHs
LOL - please show us all a runcast ressurect.
@Yoda - It's not an exploit, it's just a new way to play. If people cry "nerf" every time anything gets added/changed and before they've even tried to adapt the game will go nowhere.
or a runcasted cath... rezz dance is easy but it doesnt allow much range in movement outside a circle...
Where do you get spirit mods from? :o
heh alig, u regret being pistoler now ? :p
i must admit, the spirit bullets are very strong , but they finally give PE and Spies the option to kill stupid PPU with 2 even good PPU and that gives me a feeling of contentedness
btw alig, spirit mods should have removed shelter from beginning it was just a bug to remove deflector
that spirit bullets finally give me the chance to take about an apu ppu team if the ppu is too crack-handed
Ok i admit that huge dmg is a bit overpowered lower it for 50 % as it was before , but else .. i dont know ... i wouldnt like to see the spirit bullets being nerfed to dead, because that mods doesnt have everyone, and they finally give a rifle PE the right to participate at some op wars...
Actually Phlith, I was talking about aiming time, since you usually don't debuff in succession, at least to a single target anyway, although yeah they're about the same if you do. But for the first shot, SH wins if you've got the aim.
I
In the very short time we've had this last patch, I have seen three spies single-handedly take down a PPU using a spirit-modded sniper rifle and then use another weapon to finish them off.
Is that 3 spies vs a PPU or one on one each time? The insanely slow reload time of the silent hunter is what makes it a pain to use close up.
But yea, using it close up as an anti-buff tool is a bit lame. There should be something on the mod to force the spy to only attack from long range.
if someone takes the time to make a setup like that like i have, and is good useing it, its almost imposible to kill them... thats why we should have spys with spiret moded SHs
So post your setup. You probably wont because like someone said already, there are people who prefer to get the one up.
Simple fact is, a majority of PPUs do not have your setup, nor your level most likely.
And just because you can stand in the tunnels and take the damage doesn't make you a good PPU.
I've seen some really, really far res dances... the lower lifts at TG - from one edge of the 'room' to the other.
I've seen some really, really far res dances... the lower lifts at TG - from one edge of the 'room' to the other.
Rez runcasting is somewhat easy. The secret is to only run so far from the spell cast point and then return to that point before the spell finishes. It is a little more tricky now because the rez bubble tends to disappear before the spell actually takes effect but good PPUs know the time limits on their spells.
Pure high level PPUs though I have seen Rez from a good distance away. But that was a while ago, not sure if the spell has been nerfed since then.
Maloch Octavia
13-06-04, 14:27
For those Spies that cry that they felt useless in Op Wars...
Be a Droner
We kick ass!!
RAWWWWRGH!!
Especially when there are five or six of us in a group. Aaaah the terror!!
RUN!! RUN MY NIBLINGS!1!!111!
The secret is to only run so far from the spell cast point and then return to that point before the spell finishes.
That's pretty obvious. My point was that the distance in question has been rather far for some very good PPUs.
I have a problem with Silent Hunters being used as short range shotguns to anti-buff PPUS.
Thery should not function at close range imo.
Otherwise I have no complaints.
greendonkeyuk
13-06-04, 15:04
*GESTICULATING WILDLY*
NERF NERF NERF! errrr NO!
Absolutely no problem whatsoever here with spies using spirit mods at any range to remove shelter from ppus. Anything that makes ppus killable is fine with me. Yes i have one by the way. At the moment you NEED an apu to kill a ppu, for anyone else it is a waste of effort/ammo. sure the tl3 heal thing works some times but its not a viable countermeasure. with this change the spy works in the same way as the apu. How many times have the spies been referred to as Dex-apus in recent months? Lots. Therefore why shouldnt spies have this function. Pes using it.... well i can think of 3 who do, 3 out of all the pes going, well probably the only 3 rifle pes who are left on uranus use this setup, the only other good one i know sadly left recently but he was lowtech so anyway. I digress.
Seriously though guys, it was the same with the antibuffs, people whined cried and threatened to quit. If youre on your ppu now and you see a spy with a non-swirly weapon out in front of you isnt that goin to immediately make you think ooh antibuff time? I know it would me. To all the people saying lets have an indicator when our buffs are dropping... sorry but if you got your buffs timed then you know when your teams buffs wil be falling by judging your own. Thats part of being a ppu. If yours fall, yes you have to rebuff, that does fuck up ur timings i admit but as someone else said, Team speak is teh win. Personally i love playing my ppu. I also love playing my spy. Im not a godlike ppu but i do see this as a benefit to the spy class so im all for it. It is a new addition to the game, people will adapt. if they dont well its tough shit aint it. Sorry to be so harsh in this post but i never thought id see the day when someone said nerf the spies.....
If anything could be changed about the spirit mod by the sounds of things i think it should be made as similar to the HAB as humanly possible. IE remove the damage on it. If the spies as posted are using the sh/hl combo then surely it would even things up to remove the damage from this particular round. it would at least give the ppu the extra split second needed to sort out his shelter. Ok its slightly faster now than the apus cast time of 3 seconds but sh rof isnt massively different really. Proportionately the spy doesnt have the raw damage power of the apu.
With this change i think wed see apu/ppu/spy combos now rather than jus apu/ppu. I dont see anything glaringly wrong with this at all.
My 2ps worth.
If anything could be changed about the spirit mod by the sounds of things i think it should be made as similar to the HAB as humanly possible. IE remove the damage on it.
Spirit mod does little to no damage. I had Mr Morietti plug away at me for a while (I had no shields, rarely use them) and he couldn't kill me.
The problem is with the range. I am sure people have no point getting hit if the rifle was used as it was intended. In fact I think the SH should do little to no damage close up, or fail to get a lock if you are too close to your target (within close PvP range).
With the APU spell the PPU has some chance to realise what is happening and counter it, the APU also has to expend PSI points to use the spell so they can't spam it and hurt easy. Where as with the SH you can keep using it over and over.
tomparadox
13-06-04, 16:17
LOL - please show us all a runcast ressurect.
nah, cba to log on, unless you have TS, and dont give me the bull saying that TS is diferent from retail, and dont try to pin testing a setup on me because i dident...
bah this thread is attracting the type of people who just want either S/D removed or PPU's nerfed to high hell :mad:
I don't even play a PPU anymore, yet i think this is cruel, a capped HAB is 4 seconds flat, and like has been said it gives out such a big "HEY IM HERE DEBUFFING YOU" effect its pretty much pointless unless its mop up time at the end of a fight, saying that i have used my HAB to good effect in the past few days, but thats against tanks and other apu's, NOT PPU's.
I still think its wrong for a type of class that is using range to exploit a fact of close range fighting, with no drawbacks at all, and potentially cripple and kill the most defensive class in the game single handed without any sign of it other than a dead PPU or other class that the spy wishes to fire on.
This will go further, you will end up with APU's and Dev tanks stacking poison and the spy using this spirit mod to strip shelter, the poor sods won't even know whats happened untill they see the GenRep selection box appear.
Its wrong, flat out wrong, I don't play a PPu, its wrong, at this time im currently lvling a mid lvl rifle spy, its STILL WRONG. Plus how can you say to people to adapt, adapt to what? death? how do you adapt to something you can't A. See, B. Hear, and C. fight back.
I didnt read the 6 pages of whatever but all i can say is omg a ppu might die at an op fight, thats good news. More ways for other char classes to be usefull at op fights.
Now only if a pe's were more.... well whatever they are.
Dont forget now you need an apu or spy to kill a ppu quickly. Either with a sketter or sh spirit mod. both have drawbacks and advantages.
i agree with anima and as for GOD like tomparadox reckoning he can run cast cath sanc rofllmfao course u can son
Shadow Dancer
13-06-04, 19:46
I didnt read the 6 pages of whatever but all i can say is omg a ppu might die at an op fight, thats good news. More ways for other char classes to be usefull at op fights.
AMEN.
Btw Yoda capped HAB is 3 seconds not 4. :p
This is the result which has been predicted by many for several months now. I've been saying it repeatedly, Carinth has mentioned it with almost every post. PPUs refuse to accept that anything could possibly be unbalanced about them, and therefore won't accept any changes at all, so KK are effectively going in blind - and this is what they come up with.
i think spirit modded sniper rifle should have a tracer effect, like a trail of smoke or whatever from the gun to the person the spy hits, a bit like the sniper off halo so the enemies know where the spy is and the spy will have to move around more and it will be a weakness, so this way they might not abuse the use of it as much, because it is very powerful.
i think spirit modded sniper rifle should have a tracer effect, like a trail of smoke or whatever from the gun to the person the spy hits, a bit like the sniper off halo so the enemies know where the spy is and the spy will have to move around more and it will be a weakness, so this way they might not abuse the use of it as much, because it is very powerful.
That would only punish those who try to use it from range.
Ranged combat is already fucked enough without something that daft.
tomparadox
13-06-04, 22:04
i agree with anima and as for GOD like tomparadox reckoning he can run cast cath sanc rofllmfao course u can son
erm? have you even been on TS to watch me? when they make the research loms actuly lom skill again come on and ill prove it to you, till then shut up about what you have not see, jest because you have not seen it dosent meen its not true...
I Got Teh Perfect Solution!!!11
Remove Ppus!!!!!111
I Got Teh Perfect Solution!!!11
Remove Ppus!!!!!111
My opinion nerf the PPU's :)
They are waay overpowered.
Interesting... but let me tell you it takes skill to aim SH when a target is moving.
the fact is PPUs are so used to being all powerful they just stand there and don't move. If a PPU starts strafing around here and there he can't get hit. Xantor has tried pulling a SH hit when I was running around on my Rifle PE and he can't hit me at all with it, and xantor has good aim :/
Also oh wow PPUs are getting killed....its the end of the world nooooo.
Interesting... but let me tell you it takes skill to aim SH when a target is moving.
the fact is PPUs are so used to being all powerful they just stand there and don't move. If a PPU starts strafing around here and there he can't get hit. Xantor has tried pulling a SH hit when I was running around on my Rifle PE and he can't hit me at all with it, and xantor has good aim :/
Also oh wow PPUs are getting killed....its the end of the world nooooo.
Heh. I dont think so, its just as hard to hit one shot with SH as it is to hit heal or shelter or deflector or damage boost...the list could go on forever.
Ask anyone and they will tell you my pe is fucking rapid and xantor hit me first time with SH...took two shots the second time, SH has no different aim than any weapon does. Its overpowered in the hands of a PE nuff said.
Hell i dont care if ppu's die from it...good but put some sort of restriction on it...why should a PE/spy be able to debuff a protection character faster than an apu when a PE can take a shit load more damage than an apu and so can spies (unless they are noobs)...there is NO logical explanation for it...HAB is pretty much a stand still for 3 seconds while you debuff ....then you loose 200 mana (most people have 300 - 350 mana) ...its fucking ridiculous that weapon is...they should never of made such a shite mod for any weapon.
Dribble Joy
14-06-04, 01:11
...they should never of made such a shite mod for any weapon.
My sentiments exactly, it should never have been introduced, but now it's here.
So now we get the excuses of 'It's part of the game, you can't change it and there's nothing wrong with it'.
O_o
My sentiments exactly, it should never have been introduced, but now it's here.
So now we get the excuses of 'It's part of the game, you can't change it and there's nothing wrong with it'.
O_o
Yup exactly or the "lets give it a try" let everyone get used to it and soon everyone will have one + a rifle pe and it will be harder to get rid of it than freeze is. :mad:
Lucid Dream
14-06-04, 05:08
Why not just uh.. give a spirit modded SH a swirly?
Everyone needs an audible, positive feedback warning when they've been antibuffed and/or when their buffs wear off. Those icons are too out-of-the way and when one of them disappears it is often simply overlooked. You may say something like "ooo get some skills and learn to watch your buffs" but it is not at all easy watching both the action and then watching for an icon to disappear off the bottom corner of your screen. Its headache inducing.
The audible alert I 100% agree with. In the sound.pak files, they have sounds for like Reserach Processes Start/Complete, Construction Start/Complete, I'm sure they have sounds for say "PSI Powers" or whatever.
Hopefully they will fully implement sounds in BDoY, if not sooner. I bet their is over half the game just wasting harddrive space in the .pak(s) that are never used ingame.
Amen. Everyone thought antishelter would be the "end" of ppus, and blah blah blah. Let's give this a chance.Exactly my point. It's just a new element added to the game mechanics, just like in the world today, if something changes or something is added/removed for either good or bad, people adapt and adjust to the changes. The game world needs to adapt and adjust to the changes as well.
I don't even have a PPU. I actually despise them. But this just feels wrong on so many levels. When a PPU is trying to take care of 6 people in an OP fight, and he's hit by a spirit bullet, how is he to know his only line of defense to FIRE, ENERGY, and XRAY has just been taken from him????
Only line of defense? try resists. cases like the one u mention is what separates the smart ppu from the not; smart ppus keep a high mind up for resists; those points well alocated in CON will save your life when your buffs go down.
but other than that i'd have to say i really like it how spies can actually kill ppus these days; and yes i have a near capped ppu and capped spy and believe me, it defintely adds to the excitement.
tomparadox
14-06-04, 06:40
Only line of defense? try resists. cases like the one u mention is what separates the smart ppu from the not; smart ppus keep a high mind up for resists; those points well alocated in CON will save your life when your buffs go down.
but other than that i'd have to say i really like it how spies can actually kill ppus these days; and yes i have a near capped ppu and capped spy and believe me, it defintely adds to the excitement. i agree...
you know, everyone fucking bitches that PPUs are so overpowerd, and i agree they are, but here KK intruduces something to the game so that you dont HALF to have an APU to kill a fucking ppu, so that a apu is about the only way to kill a ppu, and you people come and a bitch to high hell about it like, 3 months + after the damn things have been introduces, WTF?
would everyone rather PPUs run around with godmode on? or go back to that stupid antibuff wich dosent work worth a damn in the first plase?
EDIT: actuly howbout this, wipe the stupid spiret mods like you did the books, redo the GM thing that gives them out, then maby every stupid clan whont have so many of them to give to there sniper...
Only line of defense? try resists. cases like the one u mention is what separates the smart ppu from the not; smart ppus keep a high mind up for resists; those points well alocated in CON will save your life when your buffs go down.
Sorry but that is BS. Yes the resists will stop you from dying the first time, but you still have to keep your buffs up or you will die. So the PPU casts Shelter again and signals to the spy "Hey hit me with the spirit mod again". Even holy heal won't keep you alive permantly without shields.
Try seeing if you can stop an attack without putting shelter on at all.
* Edit: Btw, it it took 3 vs PPU to take him down then it is not a problem.
How is that amazing? its 3 vs 1 and they are using a ultra rare item.
This is not abuse... Its about right.
I agree, noone is forceing those PPU's to stand still, and put up a sign "Hithere, my name is TARGET, please shoot me". If they are that stupid and stand still in plain sight in a warzone - they deserve to die.
A synchronised attack by those 3 (or more) snipers should toast that PPU in a few seconds anyway; When the PPU is hit by spirit ammo and thinks about sheltering up, he is hit again by a storm of bullets from the rest of the snipergroup.
Original monk
14-06-04, 10:05
I Got Teh Perfect Solution!!!11
Remove Ppus!!!!!111
atleast youre being honest and you tell us flatout youre opinion ... in contrast with all the rest that whine and whine about everything surrounding them but actually yust want the same as you do ...
Ok remove the mods, remove HAB too, see how far you get trying to kill someone with full buffs on, you do jack shit dmg to people if they setup right, tanks don't get hurt one bit from APU's HL.
So answer?...............................without the debuffing spells, we need to remove the buffs yeah? so now we gotta remove PPU's, this is what you guys really want, so KK just do it and lets see how long these lot last in any fight without any sort of shields on them, fucking amazingly they will die even before they get inside a outpost gate, one moonstriker hit to any monk or spy without sheilds and they are gone, a couple of bursts froma CS and down goes the rest. How fast you wanna run about with HL up your arse? I know how fast you will die, I've debuffed tanks who have the highest resists in the game, and without shields they drop like a sack of shit, so PLEASE stop with the whinning PPU's are overpowered and lets nerf them and lets get rid of S/D ffs, like you all say, its part of the game, adapt. :mad:
The simple answer if we gotta have this nontested piece of crap spirit mod in the game is to give a audio warning or somesort and reduce the speed at which this modded gun can fire, IT MUST have anegative effect on the user, APU's already have all their mana taken away and have to stand about for "3" seconds with a big warning to the PPU, so although the SH is meant to be that, this mod isn't, and shouldn't be silent in anyway whatsoever, make is scream or something or a ghosts sound of scream, i don't know but put something in that people can hear easy enough, no trail effect though, at least it might be fun for people to not know who just got debuffed by it, but let people know someone was fired on with it.
We also need a range restriction on the SH, its a sniper weapon, not a bloody shotgun! something like a range < 50ms = nontargetable, range > 50ms targetable.
Here is a solution.
Using the SH with the spirit mod drops your shields when fired.
For a sniper this isn't a big deal as they attack from distance and use that to defend themselves. For a spy close range this would mean instant death.
Now if one spy is sniping and the other is on cleanup, well that is perfectly legal.
Use of a Spirit mod gives 4% Synaptic impairment, just like when a drone gets destroyed.
Lucid Dream
14-06-04, 11:42
Bullshit, 4% SI means that you cant use most of your guns, or your stealth tool, or armor, etc depending on your setup. I am all for some sort of visible or audible info to the person getting debuffed, but making it so the gun is a death sentence to the user is stupid..
If ive said it before, ill say it again, YOU CANT SNIPE IN THIS GAME. The closest you can get is getting on the hack term, or being lucky enough to be at an OP that has a big mountain next to it like cycrow, and even then, everyone knows that snipers/droners use the mountain, so go there real quick to get rid of said people. Because you cannot snipe from a distance in any useful fashion, having the user of a spirit mod lose most of their armor, weapons, and stealth, is absolutely a death sentence.
EDIT:
Here is a solution.
Using the SH with the spirit mod drops your shields when fired.
For a sniper this isn't a big deal as they attack from distance and use that to defend themselves. For a spy close range this would mean instant death.
Now if one spy is sniping and the other is on cleanup, well that is perfectly legal.
I like this.
___T-X____
14-06-04, 14:44
When I played my spy I had to be a Dex Spy and not STR spy to make the SH worth using. To the point that a 4 slotted Commando did better damage.
Just so I understand when using this gun at any % dmg it will remove buffs?
I like this.
Me too. Gets my vote. Easy to incorporate in an RP/logic sense, when the bullet leaves your gun, it obviously travels through your shields and disables them as well.
Heh. I dont think so, its just as hard to hit one shot with SH as it is to hit heal or shelter or deflector or damage boost...the list could go on forever.
Ask anyone and they will tell you my pe is fucking rapid and xantor hit me first time with SH...took two shots the second time, SH has no different aim than any weapon does. Its overpowered in the hands of a PE nuff said.
Hell i dont care if ppu's die from it...good but put some sort of restriction on it...why should a PE/spy be able to debuff a protection character faster than an apu when a PE can take a shit load more damage than an apu and so can spies (unless they are noobs)...there is NO logical explanation for it...HAB is pretty much a stand still for 3 seconds while you debuff ....then you loose 200 mana (most people have 300 - 350 mana) ...its fucking ridiculous that weapon is...they should never of made such a shite mod for any weapon.
APUs have equal defence as a PE and higher then a spy when all have PPU buffs. a PE SH needs time for reticle to close in, SH does not instantly hit like DB or shelter, if you lose aim long enough the reticle will reset. It is not over powered in the hand of a RIFLE PE, since RIFLE PE sucks to begin with I hardly say its over powered, given the choice in an op fight anyone would take an APU, which takes "1" more second to debuff, and can do a heck lot more damage. also apus are natural users of antibuff, PEs cannot use SH without at least 2 drugs.
SH was meant to be a "killing" weapon, now that its finally useful leave it as it it. don't fix it if it ain't broke, whats the use of SH before the mod was added? Sure sniping in the wastelands IF THERE IS ANYONE TO SNIPE!!!!! apart from the lone APU, its ridciulously hard to kill someone with an SH. Albeit SH should nearly be a one hit KO. Spies could previously only peck people in op fights and piss them off, now that they can finally kill you want it to go back to TANKS AND MONKS. OMFG
I can tell you that antibuff is way easier to aim then an SH, provided the target is moving. I have no proof but monk spells are all easier to hit. Rifles are not easy to use to begin with apart from RoG. The aim with the rifle is the hardest in the game, and it sucks for damage. SH is nearly the only reason why people go rifle, so leave it be. In fact after using rifle for solong I go to HC and MC, its piss easy to use. No wonder so everyone flock to those classes. Now that rifle spies have an advantage LEAVE IT ALONE.
IMO shields are the problem in this game, remove foreign cast shields alltogether. then remove the spirit mod, but as it stands now SH is useless when PPU has a shelter and deflector on as with any other class. These two spells are percentage absorbers, which makes them a lot more effective compared to armor.
As I repeated the only reason why a PPU will get killed that easily is because he sees a spie, and ohnoz its a spy and stands still because he isn't used to being threatened by a spy. If the PPU gets his ass moving I doubt its all that easy to kill him.
Spies are fixed now, now fix the PEs! I'm glad to see spies finally having a role in op fights. I hate the brawl betwen monks and tanks in the game and woul love a fine mixture of all 4 classes plus some vehicles here and there. Its not hard to see why so many people are put off playing Neocron after the first month or so.
APUs have equal defence as a PE and higher then a spy when all have PPU buffs. a PE SH needs time for reticle to close in, SH does not instantly hit like DB or shelter, if you lose aim long enough the reticle will reset.
a SH close range can hit the target very easy. It takes a while for the recticle to go down, but you dont need to it to an exact lock to hit, as the SH miss is based on a diviation from range (shots dont go all assways like other guns).
SH was meant to be a "killing" weapon, now that its finally useful leave it as it it.
Stop saying the SH. The problem is with the spirit mod. Not the Silent hunter.
whats the use of SH before the mod was added? Sure sniping in the wastelands IF THERE IS ANYONE TO SNIPE!!!!!
It is very useful in opwars. No one to snipe? Any sniper worth their salt can find targets to kill. It is a silly counter argument.
Spies could previously only peck people in op fights and piss them off,
You use the weapon correctly you can drop people with ease. The problem is that you have to keep your range and hide. While helping at an op war, my record for the number of kills (actual+assisted) = 15. Three of those kills the people didn't even know what the hell was going on. The stupid sniper stands and shoots, the good ones shoot and drop and then move after 2-3 shots.
As I repeated the only reason why a PPU will get killed that easily is because he sees a spie, and ohnoz its a spy and stands still because he isn't used to being threatened by a spy. If the PPU gets his ass moving I doubt its all that easy to kill him.
No PPUs die if they loose their buffs, the good ones can shrug off an attack long enough to rebuff, but seeing as the SH can just debuff them practically instantly it means the PPU will die.
I don't care if you killed 15 people with the SH. People can easily notice the sudden decrease in health and move out of the way. Finding the sniper is hard, but avoiding to be sniped? not at all. In fact if it was such a usefull tactic we'd see a hell lot more sniping going on. With a deflector online the SH damage is not very good. As I said lone APU is the only thing you can about kill.
As for the PPU monk thing I guess i'll have to agree a bit, but still if there are teammates covering and firing at the spy I doubt its a problem at all. Monks also have a large base energy resists, and if corretcly setup most PPUs shoulnd't fall to a disruptor or a FL easily with holy heal online.
What kind of idiot PPU hangs out alone? If he had an APU the aPU can take care of the spy faster then the spy can do anything. As for sniping its bloody impossible unless a PPU is standing right next to a mountain.
Maybe this should make cover and locations usefull for once.
greendonkeyuk
14-06-04, 17:58
Use of a Spirit mod gives 4% Synaptic impairment, just like when a drone gets destroyed.
I like this idea. The only thing is the use of stealth and so a question to the droners i think, what is the minimum dex/tc you have to be to use stealth 1 with the 4% impairment. My maths is unfortunately terrible so i wont try to work this out but this seems to be a reasonable idea to me. The sniper will invariably stealth when he has hit the target, the 4% impairment means that the target has those few seconds to rebuff, it alleviates the "spirit-spam" problem before it starts also. The last thing id like to suggest is expanding on the ghost scream theme, what about if the spirit mod let out a "spirit-wail" for lack of a better word, when fired. An audio effect for all within a given range of the target to hear. That way it gives the ppu a fighting chance to survive whilst at the same time the other side gets a chance of nailing him to the wall.
and a simple
NO
from me.
PPU should be easily killable, that's the only way to balance the ppu buffs advantage. SH spirit bullet, logically thinking, should remove both shelter and deflector (or just every active spell) at once as it removes the spiritual link between the spell and the caster.
Here is a solution.
Using the SH with the spirit mod drops your shields when fired.
For a sniper this isn't a big deal as they attack from distance and use that to defend themselves. For a spy close range this would mean instant death.That is exactly along the lines of what I suggested. However, I suggested it drain the stamina and parashock the user. Either way, the de-sheltering technology is powerful and should have some sort of kickback or negative effect per use.
I agree its a good idea to make spirit bullets rip the shelter off the spy as well, this would make sense and would mean sheltered spies can't fire it at a ridiculously close range.
The problem? well range is screwed right now
Shadow Dancer
14-06-04, 19:02
No PPUs die if they loose their buffs, the good ones can shrug off an attack long enough to rebuff, but seeing as the SH can just debuff them practically instantly it means the PPU will die.
I don't buy that. Many many many times i have seen ppus surprised debuffed by apus and still live. If they don't see that 3 second debuff coming, or they are not paying attention, it's the same as an SH debuffing them. It's a shock and comes quick to them. The difference is an APU can do a hell of alot more damage faster than rifle spies. Secondly, doesn't it take 3 seconds between shots for an SH? Isn't the same as antibuff? Obviously the first shot is "instant", but if you want to spam it............
I think it's rediculous how people want ppus to stay as overpowered and overimportant as they are, then get mad when this is introduced. I think the only person who even has a half-decent arguement is Alig.
The difference is an APU can do a hell of alot more damage faster than rifle spies. Secondly, doesn't it take 3 seconds between shots for an SH? Isn't the same as antibuff? Obviously the first shot is "instant", but if you want to spam it............
You dont spam it, you shoot and switch. The instant switching issue I explained months ago (That pistols were overpowered) also applies to the SH. The PPU cant tell a debuff is coming or a normal shot.
Also the APU casting anti-buff burns off their PSI pool. They can't spam it, and to keep shooting they also also limited. The Spirit mod doesn't have this limitation.
This isn't making the PPU unkillable. The Spirit will still work. It is to stop the likes of Rifle spies have a quick close in combat anti-buff.
Onoz ppu arent immortal anymore!!! The game lost its perfect balance!!! I actually *may* die sometime... oh dear god, please nerf all non ppu classess so the situation become balanced again...
/me wonders what will be tommorow nerfing thread about...
Underground
14-06-04, 19:19
How about making it so that if a target is within say 100 meters you dont get a target reticule on them anymore. If thats possible...
SH was not intended to be used as a shotgun O_o
SH was not intended to be used as a shotgun O_o
and your point is....?
Keyboard wasnt intended to slam your head repeateadly with it, yet i'm pretty close of doing it... Am i right to suspect some heavenly act of NERF which will stop me from this?
Really, i've looked in all this stupid post in this stupidly long thread and never found even one logically valid argument in it. Is it so unbelievably hard to think sometimes?
Nah, it's just me, OF COURSE spies shouldnt be able to use Silent Hunter effectively enough to kill a ppu...
Shadow Dancer
14-06-04, 19:46
You dont spam it, you shoot and switch.
*sigh*
I'm just countering the point about spies being able to spam debuff.
The PPU cant tell a debuff is coming or a normal shot.
So?
Why should the ppu have a big ass warning they are going to get debuffed? I think ppus already have too many luxuries.
Also the APU casting anti-buff burns off their PSI pool. They can't spam it, and to keep shooting they also also limited. The Spirit mod doesn't have this limitation.
Like I said before, if they want to debuff again don't they have to wait 3 seconds because of the rifle's crappy RoF?
And they may not have the limitation of mana when switching to another weapon, but they sure as hell don't have the apu's damage. So it pretty much evens out IMO.
I don't see anything wrong with the whole situation, except maybe spies/pes using it against other pes/spies. But other than that, I think ppus ask for to much to have all these negative penalties applied to the SH.
Underground
14-06-04, 19:49
SD you ever played high end PPU ? I remember you as a /40ish PPU a looong time ago, shortly, then ever since then youve just wanted their downfall at the expense of balance and general thinking...
Why do people keep making ridiculous posts along the lines of "Oh no, a PPU can now be killed?" If you read Nvidia's original post, he is NOT saying the Spirit mod should be deleted. It is fine if used as intended, but not when you have PEs and spies using it at point-blank range.
Why should the ppu have a big ass warning they are going to get debuffed? I think ppus already have too many luxuries.
Lets remove colour twirlies from rares as well so people don't know what the weapon that is going to hit him, or remove Spell effects so people can't tell what is coming. Why only PPUs?
Nearly every item has a give and take to it. The spirit mod should not be used in close range combat. The shields ripped from the sniper would be fine as it would have no effect on snipers.
Shadow Dancer
14-06-04, 20:03
SD you ever played high end PPU ? I remember you as a /40ish PPU a looong time ago,
Woooooooooooooooooooooooooo, that was such a long time ago.
shortly, then ever since then youve just wanted their downfall at the expense of balance and general thinking...
Incorrect, it was a long while after being ppu and totally unrelated to being ppu. As for wanting their downfall at the expense of balance and general thinking, hah that's hilarious. I want ppus gone from this game, but since they are here to stay I want to see them balanced. I'm not suggesting ideas that practically make them useless or crap. I just think their unbalanced and need a serious revamp. And I think this SH mod is 100% fine.
Lets remove colour twirlies from rares as well so people don't know what the weapon that is going to hit him, or remove Spell effects so people can't tell what is coming.
Um ok. That wouldn't really bother me.
But your analogy is flawed anyhow. Let me get a special sensor on my screen that lets me know when someone is about to shoot me. Why only ppus? Tee hee, I can make an analogy too. :wtf:
Nearly every item has a give and take to it.
Lol. SH has enough negatives IMO.
The spirit mod should not be used in close range combat.
Well I guess that's the crux of the disagreement. I still haven't heard one good reason why it should not be used in close range combat.
But your analogy is flawed anyhow. Let me get a special sensor on my screen that lets me know when someone is about to shoot me. Why only ppus? Tee hee, I can make an analogy too.
W..T..F... ? What special sensor does a PPU have? PPU has nothing that other characters don't have.
It is not an analogy if it is total BS.
Also stop interchanging the SH with the Spirit mod. No one is saying the SH is overpowered, it is the spirit mod at close range. This has absolutly nothing to do with the SH.
APUs have equal defence as a PE and higher then a spy when all have PPU buffs. a PE SH needs time for reticle to close in, SH does not instantly hit like DB or shelter, if you lose aim long enough the reticle will reset. It is not over powered in the hand of a RIFLE PE, since RIFLE PE sucks to begin with I hardly say its over powered, given the choice in an op fight anyone would take an APU, which takes "1" more second to debuff, and can do a heck lot more damage. also apus are natural users of antibuff, PEs cannot use SH without at least 2 drugs.
APU's have equal defense to a PE ahhhhahahaha buffed from a ppu a PE is fucking invincible. You got an APU and a 2 PE's to proove me wrong?.
Rifle PE's suck....lol...no your rifle pe sucks (sorry). Ok so SH needs 2 drugs...wow any good hightech pe uses 2 drugs anyway, with SA and my normal drugs my rolh pe is 113 dex takes little damage would wear lvl3 armour and have 190 p-c/125 agl/88 t-c...a rifler pe is the same only they use rifles
If i had the choice between a SH pe and an APU in an op fight i know which one would come...apus can debuff fair enough...we all know they are the fucking devils of NC so they can debuff...wow, did you forget they can debuff once in one set of mana? didnt think so...did you forget they need to use the rest of there mana actually trying to kill the person they debuffed? didnt think so. Did you forget SH fires instantly debuff's and you have ammo to shoot your weapons instead of a set limit psi pool like an apu? obviously you forgot all them vital points.
SH was meant to be a "killing" weapon, now that its finally useful leave it as it it. don't fix it if it ain't broke, whats the use of SH before the mod was added? Sure sniping in the wastelands IF THERE IS ANYONE TO SNIPE!!!!! apart from the lone APU, its ridciulously hard to kill someone with an SH. Albeit SH should nearly be a one hit KO. Spies could previously only peck people in op fights and piss them off, now that they can finally kill you want it to go back to TANKS AND MONKS. OMFG
SH was the hardest hitting weapon in nc before the mod...it was fully capable of killing an apu/pe/other spy/tank unless they ran off so dont talk crap.
I can tell you that antibuff is way easier to aim then an SH, provided the target is moving. I have no proof but monk spells are all easier to hit. Rifles are not easy to use to begin with apart from RoG. The aim with the rifle is the hardest in the game, and it sucks for damage. SH is nearly the only reason why people go rifle, so leave it be. In fact after using rifle for solong I go to HC and MC, its piss easy to use. No wonder so everyone flock to those classes. Now that rifle spies have an advantage LEAVE IT ALONE.
Antibuff might be just a 'click on target' spell but since when do apus hit everytime? then if an apu DOES miss antibuff he has no mana to retry...a SH can just reload...see the difference?. Apus dont have enough mana or resists to be waiting around getting shot while they are waiting for there psi pool to go up ...they have no choice but to pull HL if they miss HAB and kill the person buffed or they WILL die. A pe can run around doing a dance with heal on and try to debuff you over and over in seconds flat.
Right whatever...rifle is the hardest to aim haha yeah. H-C is alot harder to aim than rifle ... ive got a HC tank and ive had him for 1.5 years and 13th--ghost was rifle until last week and i know which is harder to aim. You dont even play so dont come that shit.
IMO shields are the problem in this game, remove foreign cast shields alltogether. then remove the spirit mod, but as it stands now SH is useless when PPU has a shelter and deflector on as with any other class. These two spells are percentage absorbers, which makes them a lot more effective compared to armor.
Heh. log on and direct someone with a spirit SH for a duel on your rifle pe...lets see how long you last trying to recast shelter.
As I repeated the only reason why a PPU will get killed that easily is because he sees a spie, and ohnoz its a spy and stands still because he isn't used to being threatened by a spy. If the PPU gets his ass moving I doubt its all that easy to kill him.
A ppu is just as easy to hit as any other class running, what sort of crap is that?
Spies are fixed now, now fix the PEs! I'm glad to see spies finally having a role in op fights. I hate the brawl betwen monks and tanks in the game and woul love a fine mixture of all 4 classes plus some vehicles here and there. Its not hard to see why so many people are put off playing Neocron after the first month or so.
I agree. Let spies keep the spirit SH's...i dont actually care because i know unless his name is Kid Brainiac he wont kill any of my chars debuffed. (maybe there is more good rifle spies but ive yet to see any come close to kid brainiac) But PE's should definately not have access to that gun....PE's are fucking lethal anyway.
Shadow Dancer
14-06-04, 20:16
W..T..F... ? What special sensor does a PPU have? PPU has nothing that other characters don't have.
Dude pay attention to what YOU write man. lol.
Debuff is a special attack against ppus, although it can be used against non ppus. Now you want some type of warning shot or fire, and then I said "why should ppus have the luxury of knowing when a debuff is coming". Then you mentioned removing all rare swirlies and spell effects. Why just the ppu?
That's why I brought up my analogy. Because we don't have some type of special warning we're about to get shot, unless they are in front of us aiming at us, why should the ppu have some type of special warning when it comes to debuff?
See what I mean now.
Also stop interchanging the SH with the Spirit mod. No one is saying the SH is overpowered, it is the spirit mod at close range. This has absolutly nothing to do with the SH.
How does this have nothing to do with the SH? That makes NO SENSE. First of all I didn't say that people said SH was overpowered. Secondly, spirit mod is just a mod. IT IS NOT A WEAPON. You don't throw the mod at a ppu and debuff them. :rolleyes: So since you're talking about every weapon having "give and takes", obviously I have to bring up the SH's flaws since you can only use spirit mod INSIDE THE SH. Sheeesh.
Lol Alig, you really messed up those quotes. :p
EDIT:Or not. heh
Fixed them now lol...i got carried away :p
Debuff is a special attack against ppus, although it can be used against non ppus. Now you want some type of warning shot or fire, and then I said "why should ppus have the luxury of knowing when a debuff is coming". Then you mentioned removing all rare swirlies and spell effects. Why just the ppu?
???? Again.. wtf are you on about. When debuff is cast anyone can see what is being cast. With the SH in close range you can't tell if it is a debuff or a shot that is going to hit you.
With the APUs spell there are negatives involved, where as a spy doesn't have those negatives. They can continue to keep hitting with the debuff, where as an APU eventually has to worry about a depleted mana pool.
How does this have nothing to do with the SH? That makes NO SENSE. First of all I didn't say that people said SH was overpowered. Secondly, spirit mod is just a mod. IT IS NOT A WEAPON.
It turns a silent hunter into a different tool. Spirit does little to no damage and debuffs. The Silent hunter as what it is is not the issue. It is the effects of the Spirit mod we are arguing about. If it was a general mod that fitted onto any rifle we would still be complaining about the close range use of it.
With it as a ranged weapon, the sniper has to play a support role to someone.
Shadow Dancer
14-06-04, 20:30
???? Again.. wtf are you on about. When debuff is cast anyone can see what is being cast. With the SH in close range you can't tell if it is a debuff or a shot that is going to hit you.
*sigh*
I'm not going to explain it a 3rd time.
With the APUs spell there are negatives involved, where as a spy doesn't have those negatives. They can continue to keep hitting with the debuff, where as an APU eventually has to worry about a depleted mana pool.
Yes, but at the same time an apu has superior damage. It isn't just about the weapon, but also about the class that uses it.
Now you're bringing up another issue, spamming debuff with the SH. So
1.You feel it shouldn't be spammable. An apu can't do it, why should a spy?
2.You feel it shouldn't be used close range.
Am I correct?
I can understand the spammable bit. Maybe make the SH unusuable for like 6 seconds after you debuff someone. You know, make it so that the spirit mod has to recharge or something.
Spamming debuff with an SH is kinda crazy. You can debuff a whole squad easily.
With it as a ranged weapon, the sniper has to play a support role to someone.
Bah, I think it's fine if it's used as close range weaponry. :p
APU's have equal defense to a PE ahhhhahahaha buffed from a ppu a PE is fucking invincible. You got an APU and a 2 PE's to proove me wrong?.
Yes I do have a capped APU, in fact I had 4 accounts so thats hardly suprising. No PEs are not fucking invincible with PPU buffs, foreign cast PPU buffs are essentially the same as self PE buffs, because foreign cast is 50% effeciency. So it means both side have the same defence, any monk with good resist force, in addition to deflector and a PPU backing up. Pain easer is already a no no. when both sides are backed by a PPU the Rifle PE automatically loses in damage.
Rifle PE's suck....lol...no your rifle pe sucks (sorry). Ok so SH needs 2 drugs...wow any good hightech pe uses 2 drugs anyway, with SA and my normal drugs my rolh pe is 113 dex takes little damage would wear lvl3 armour and have 190 p-c/125 agl/88 t-c...a rifler pe is the same only they use rifles.
Frube you don't even have a rifle PE so what do you know, and my skill does not come into discussiong, since I have the exact same setup as Xantor, and even he says he is underpowered. Why are you relating your pistol PE to rifle PEs, no they don't have the same setup. You also helped me point out that an SA is a neccesity for the whole setup to work, and MC5 is well become a bitch now.
If i had the choice between a SH pe and an APU in an op fight i know which one would come...apus can debuff fair enough...we all know they are the fucking devils of NC so they can debuff...wow, did you forget they can debuff once in one set of mana? didnt think so...did you forget they need to use the rest of there mana actually trying to kill the person they debuffed? didnt think so. Did you forget SH fires instantly debuff's and you have ammo to shoot your weapons instead of a set limit psi pool like an apu? obviously you forgot all them vital points.
Your point? I see more APUs still. Also again your own stupidity amazes me, since when did the SH debuff instantly? Did you forget psi boosters actually exist?
SH was the hardest hitting weapon in nc before the mod...it was fully capable of killing an apu/pe/other spy/tank unless they ran off so dont talk crap.
unless they run off.. who doesn't run off after noticing a 3rd of their health gone? Maybe someone like you will not.
Antibuff might be just a 'click on target' spell but since when do apus hit everytime? then if an apu DOES miss antibuff he has no mana to retry...a SH can just reload...see the difference?. Apus dont have enough mana or resists to be waiting around getting shot while they are waiting for there psi pool to go up ...they have no choice but to pull HL if they miss HAB and kill the person buffed or they WILL die. A pe can run around doing a dance with heal on and try to debuff you over and over in seconds flat..
Psi boosters? I don't get what you are talking about. Again the actual fighting mechanism depends on a lot of variables, but people flock to the better classes and so far APUs have been staple in the op fight situation.
Right whatever...rifle is the hardest to aim haha yeah. H-C is alot harder to aim than rifle ... ive got a HC tank and ive had him for 1.5 years and 13th--ghost was rifle until last week and i know which is harder to aim. You dont even play so dont come that shit.
True HC is harder to aim, but when you consider 90% of fights in NC end up face to face HC is hardly hard to aim at all.
Heh. log on and direct someone with a spirit SH for a duel on your rifle pe...lets see how long you last trying to recast shelter.
Thats kind of threatening, but i won't get angry over something small. ok I will die so what? You think my rifle PE can't use SH as well? I can use any rifle in the game. Me losing or being skilless have nothing to do with the discussion. All I am saying is that finally another method to kill a PPU.
A ppu is just as easy to hit as any other class running, what sort of crap is that?.
"as any other class" that means they are as effecient as other classes when moving at avoiding being hit. Which has nothing to do with you being able to hit them at all, or my ability to do so for that matter.
I agree. Let spies keep the spirit SH's...i dont actually care because i know unless his name is Kid Brainiac he wont kill any of my chars debuffed. (maybe there is more good rifle spies but ive yet to see any come close to kid brainiac) But PE's should definately not have access to that gun....PE's are fucking lethal anyway.
Yes Rifle PEs are really lethal without SH, maybe thats why I never see them, because they are so damn good. and it must be the reason why you don't use rifles much on a PE either even if you had one (sarcasm)
Yes I do have a capped APU, in fact I had 4 accounts so thats hardly suprising. No PEs are not fucking invincible with PPU buffs, foreign cast PPU buffs are essentially the same as self PE buffs, because foreign cast is 50% effeciency. So it means both side have the same defence, any monk with good resist force, in addition to deflector and a PPU backing up. Pain easer is already a no no. when both sides are backed by a PPU the Rifle PE automatically loses in damage.
First off all. Dont twist everything i say dude, you started this and you are trying to point it back at me.
We will settle this...but...put it this way...i beat your rifle pe while you was with a PPU on my pistol pe, your PE obviously has shit resists to take any damage while a holy heal is on. Anyway to settle this log in on your apu, get a ppu with capped S/D heal and lets see who drops first stood still being shot from a cs, my PE holy buffed and holy healed or your APU holy healed and holy buffed. I already know the outcome by a long shot but you obviously need teaching in that department.
Whats this about PPU's buffs (foreign casted) are like the same as PE's s/d ROFL wtf? im not even going to comment on that. :lol:
Frube you don't even have a rifle PE so what do you know, and my skill does not come into discussiong, since I have the exact same setup as Xantor, and even he says he is underpowered. Why are you relating your pistol PE to rifle PEs, no they don't have the same setup. You also helped me point out that an SA is a neccesity for the whole setup to work, and MC5 is well become a bitch now.
No i dont have a rifle pe anymore but ive had one for 1.5 years thank you...i know alot about rifle pe's. You dont have the same setup as xantor (not in con at least) and xantor doesnt say he is underpowered so wtf are you talking about again?.
Pistols are better than rifles and YES they do have the same setup just about, except for the obvious P-C and R-C difference. Who cares about what mc5 is like now (takes 2 tanks and 1 ppu, heh HARD you say?)...everyone that needs an SA/herc/DS has one..i dont have one simple because i dont actually need one for my setup...yes i could use one just so im 113 dex if i ever want to mess about with exec/slasher but im already 125 agl/187 P-C/88 T-C...
Your point? I see more APUs still. Also again your own stupidity amazes me, since when did the SH debuff instantly? Did you forget psi boosters actually exist?
The mod has only been overpowered for 5 days or whatever....and i dont actually see more APU's than pe's anymore....
Why am i stupid? fuck sake man get to fucking grips with what SH is, it isnt a god damn spell...it has bullets, it has no negative like the 200 mana HAB takes and the slowness psi pool regains with boosters, considering you cant use a spell to attack if your waiting for your psi pool to fill up. God damnit!.
unless they run off.. who doesn't run off after noticing a 3rd of their health gone? Maybe someone like you will not.
Just an example of the shit your trying to point at me. You said that SH is useless without spirit mod and its weak and I SAY ITS THE HARDEST HITTING WEAPON IN THE GAME and you come out with this shite. Man, wake up and smell the cheese or go back to sleep.
Psi boosters? I don't get what you are talking about. Again the actual fighting mechanism depends on a lot of variables, but people flock to the better classes and so far APUs have been staple in the op fight situation.
An apu needs full undivided attention from a PPU to stay alive against several people. Dude i know, me and my bro's PPU were one of the best APU/PPU on uranus, the only other APU/PPU that ever killed us together was Skuld and Skuid.
True HC is harder to aim, but when you consider 90% of fights in NC end up face to face HC is hardly hard to aim at all.
Errr yeah ok. So H-C is harder to aim but not in close combat, since when did H-C snipe? H-C is a close combat class. Wake up dude.
Thats kind of threatening, but i won't get angry over something small. ok I will die so what? You think my rifle PE can't use SH as well? I can use any rifle in the game. Me losing or being skilless have nothing to do with the discussion. All I am saying is that finally another method to kill a PPU.
That isnt a threat :rolleyes: i am telling you if you think SH spirit modded is so balanced why not log the fuck in and show me. And why should a PE have that role? why should a PE take an apu's role...like i said, i dont mind spies having SH, they are welcome to it.
"as any other class" that means they are as effecient as other classes when moving at avoiding being hit. Which has nothing to do with you being able to hit them at all, or my ability to do so for that matter.
Huh? wtf?
Yes Rifle PEs are really lethal without SH, maybe thats why I never see them, because they are so damn good. and it must be the reason why you don't use rifles much on a PE either even if you had one (sarcasm)
Heh, actually....yeah rifle pe's and pistol pe's are lethal if they use everything to their ability...i would be surprised if any tank could kill my pistol pe while ive got heal sanc on and they are db'ed and frozen by my freezer pistol, taking 50 dmg ~ a hit of rolh or judge. I only take that from CS and thats without heal on OR heal sanc on, So yeah i stick with what i say and PE's are fucking lethal as they are without debuffing guns (how does a gun debuff anyway? does the bullet travel through Hell and back down to earth like HAB does in theory).
Lucid Dream
15-06-04, 01:22
the SH is the hardest hitting weapon in the game... SHOT BY SHOT over time, its one of the least damaging rares.
Richard Slade
15-06-04, 02:48
IMO it's about time we spies got some friggin' love
I don't mind too much the shelter removal, but sniper rifles being used in close range combat by both spies and PEs is a no-no in my book. I think the best solution would be to gimp runspeed heavily any time someone has a sniper rifle out, and make reload time 4 seconds. When switching to a SH, there should be a 3 second priming time after the weapswitch, as well. Those changes would help enforce the 'spirit' of the sniper rifle.
Runspeed with an SH is severely gimped as it is... but I think Archeus' idea about shelter or deflector being removed when a spirit round is fired, makes sense to me anyway.
Runspeed with an SH is severely gimped as it is... but I think Archeus' idea about shelter or deflector being removed when a spirit round is fired, makes sense to me anyway.
A sniper is rarely running with their SH out. It is to stop close combat.
A better solution would be to only allow the spirit mod activate when you are zoomed in.
Ok I read through the whole thread. My head hurts as it is, so I won't get started on trying to quote anything.
Some comments from me however:
* Close range SH. Ok, this can seem a bit ridicoulus I agree with this. If you try to use a sniper rifle at close range you should be automatically be /set kill_self 1 basically :p
* Spy vs PPU. One spy cannot take out a capped and skilled PPU. End of story. Two spies might, if the PPU is afk or not skilled. Three spies - PPU down. I don't see any balance problem with this whatsowever. In fact, I think it's quite balanced.
* Spirit+Any rifle vs Antibuff+HL. This one is quite easy. Sure, the spy's spirit bullet doesn't show, but the damage coming after when he switches weapon is like peas comparing to the damage that comes out of an APU after he/she has antibuffed.
I sense the problem is mainly the close combat thing.
The spirit mod isn't even in the rare pool, not in stores and if you want to get one you have to basically bend over in real life.
Fine, do something about the close range. I support that :)
Erm, Archeus, couple of questions:
1) When was the last time you saw a PPU killed by Antishield? Ask around, it takes them less than a second to recast shelter, and their heal stays running. They'll tell you, Antishield is a joke. It's Antibuff which kills PPUs. Dropping shelter alone is a case of select shelter, fire, sorted. Dropping shelter, deflector, and heal all at once is another matter entirely.
2) Since when does switching and firing work with the SH? Last time I checked, they had exactly the same issue as stealth tools - meaning, if you switch to the weapon, the engine behaves as if you had just fired it, and you cannot fire it after switching until after this time. Notice if a stealth tool fails when you click it, if you keep clicking you don't a second shot at it until EXACTLY the same amount of time you had to wait after switching before it would work. Last time I used an SH I checked this and found exactly the same thing. The only use of switching is when you run out of ammo, and the switch is faster than the reload, or when you have two weapons, and you switch from one to the other when the clip in the first is empty. Unless switching between SH1 and SH2 after every shot works, there isn't a way to exploit it and 'spam' debuff as you claim.
3) Since when did spirit mods become widely available, and since when did the ammo become widespread?
1) When was the last time you saw a PPU killed by Antishield?
Of course an APU can cause insane amount of damage, but only until their mana pools empty. Which is what the spell does. SH doesn't have this issue.
2) Since when does switching and firing work with the SH?
Either you don't know or your purposely refusing to post it, but with all weapons (eg. pistols, rifles) there is a problem where you can get continuous fire/0 reload time. It is not like the stealth tool issue at all. I know how this works, I am pretty sure you know how it works too.
Btw also found out that APU's can speed cast (cast faster then their rate of fire for the spell). Logged it as an SPR. Considering pistol users have the bug above for so long I hope they fix that and this sometime soon -_-
3) Since when did spirit mods become widely available, and since when did the ammo become widespread?
The ammo can be constructed. There are quite a few people with spirit mods now as well, which seems to suggest they can be constructed as well (although originally both could not).
Of course an APU can cause insane amount of damage, but only until their mana pools empty. Which is what the spell does. SH doesn't have this issue.
First, fair enough on the response to points 2) and 3). 3) was a geniune request for info. :)
My point regarding 2) though, is that what you're talking about is an exploit. You can't say the spirit mod is unbalanced based on people using an exploit around it. Since the only way to 'spam' debuff is by using such an exploit, you therefore can't really claim that they can. So by all means campaign for the exploit to be fixed, and you get my full support, but complaining that the spies use an expoit to spam debuff on the PPU is no different to spies complaining about the exploit PPUs use to parashock without the beam appearing.
Now, regarding antishield. I wasn't just referring to the APU solo. Put the APU with a couple of tanks, they still won't kill the PPU if the APU is only using antishield. It's far too easy to counter. Put it this way. It takes just over 1 second for a PPU to recast shelter, and his HH stays running after the spirit mod hit. Are you seriously saying that either 1) the PPUs aren't awake enough to guess that the reason they took fairly little damage from the SH was because it was a spirit round, in which case they are not very good PPUs and therefore not the subject of balancing, or 2) a FL, Disruptor or Healing Light can kill a PPU in just over 1 second, even with Holy Heal running?
yes frube I know you are uber, happy? I don't know why you love putting your skill into discussion so much, your skill has nothing to do with balance and neither has mine, all you are doing is sounding like you are trying to prove something.
Anyways I don't really want to make this go so out of hand, i'll simply say I stand on the fact that SH is fine atm, just make spies lose shelter when they fire it.
and stop arguing with yourself one side you say how immensly powerful pistols are, and the other side you say that SH hits hard and is over powered, unless you got your personal ego in the way, then you should realize that damage wise the drugged up PE pistols are heaps better then the drugged up SH.
also stop saying how I suck I don't care I live in hong kong and have 400 ping constantly, my con setup is similiar to xantors before he upped his health. You live in germany that makes a whole lot of differene when Neofragging, and you don't even use rifles at all and you can judge that rifles don't suck? which xantor said "was overpowered" meaning he "was underpowered".
I don't know if you are talking about rifle PEs or SH in generals half the time. Anyways lets just forget about it. We are diverging a bit too much man.
Lucid Dream
15-06-04, 19:18
It seems the basic underlying problem people have is the ability for the SH to be used in close range, and... i dont see why this is a problem. Why is using this particular weapon in close range frowned upon? Is it role-play based? Are people offended by using a weapon at a range that is not 1/5 of its max distance? (clip is what, 550? max range on sh is like 3k)
I think what people are not getting through their heads, and I dont see why not, is that, while a SH may be used occasionally in close ranges, that is because sometimes, you have to. When a clan realizes their ppu is getting debuffed from a distance, they send out a few people to take down the sniper, as it is now, there are only a few places you can snipe from an op, so you are found pretty quickly if you dont move around a bunch. Because of the constant movement, you never get many shots off, and become ineffective against the enemy clan, so, why not get close in, get some ppu buffs, and stay alive inside the op instead of running around outside waiting to be killed while you zoom in?
yes frube I know you are uber, happy? I don't know why you love putting your skill into discussion so much, your skill has nothing to do with balance and neither has mine, all you are doing is sounding like you are trying to prove something.
Anyways I don't really want to make this go so out of hand, i'll simply say I stand on the fact that SH is fine atm, just make spies lose shelter when they fire it.
and stop arguing with yourself one side you say how immensly powerful pistols are, and the other side you say that SH hits hard and is over powered, unless you got your personal ego in the way, then you should realize that damage wise the drugged up PE pistols are heaps better then the drugged up SH.
also stop saying how I suck I don't care I live in hong kong and have 400 ping constantly, my con setup is similiar to xantors before he upped his health. You live in germany that makes a whole lot of differene when Neofragging, and you don't even use rifles at all and you can judge that rifles don't suck? which xantor said "was overpowered" meaning he "was underpowered".
I don't know if you are talking about rifle PEs or SH in generals half the time. Anyways lets just forget about it. We are diverging a bit too much man.
I dont need to bring my skill into a discussion at all but its to make examples of how the real fucking pvp is and not something random i just think up and post...right you dont even play, but you still stand there (sit whatever) and say SH spirit modded is fine...log in and fucking show me how fine it is...most people havent been hit from it yet because its not even been like that a week yet, so half of peoples thoughts are just guesses on how hard/weak it is....im talking in capitals.
IT DOES 100 DAMAGE, IT REMOVES YOUR FUCKING SHELTER WITHOUT ANY WARNING.
13TH--GHOST WAS RIFLE FOR ONE AND A HALF YEARS (1.5 YEARS) SO DONT TELL ME HOW NOT TO JUDGE RIFLES...I KNOW HOW HARD RIFLES ARE BUT I KNOW PISTOLS ARE BETTER.
Anyway forget it, unless you want to log in to show me how balanced spirit SH's are in the hands of PE's then get the hell logged in and dont say im german. :mad:
Lucid Dream
15-06-04, 20:40
to be more specific, it does 100 damage to an apu, it does about 30 to a fully buffed ppu (and yeah, takes away shelter, but deflector is still up and strong)
it does about 75 to my PE
Well now PPUs actually have a weakness instead of being godlike, so they are crying about it :P
But i would like to see the sniper rifles forced auto-zoom and slow turn rate back to keep it as a long range weapon only...
Shadow Dancer
15-06-04, 21:34
to be more specific, it does 100 damage to an apu, it does about 30 to a fully buffed ppu (and yeah, takes away shelter, but deflector is still up and strong)
30 damage? OH MY GOD, PPUS WON'T STAND A CHANCE! NERF SPIRIT MODSEX!
:p
30 damage? OH MY GOD, PPUS WON'T STAND A CHANCE! NERF SPIRIT MODSEX!
:p
Thats why in close range you switch to a different weapon.
Shadow Dancer
15-06-04, 21:38
Thats why in close range you switch to a different weapon.
Yes. And since rifles do such tremendous damage, the ppu simply cannot heal or shelter before they die.
:confused:
as a PPU that's not constantly laughed at for sucking, I can say that spirit mods can be dealt with just like everything else. People thought raptors would be the end of PPUs because of the antiheal thing. making the adjustment to raptor was one of the easiest transitions I've dealt with yet. All it takes is a period of adjustment. The PPUs that dropped almost instantly to spirit modded SHes were most likely standing there going "hm...a spy...all should be well, I can cast a shelter/deflector on my teammate and toss up a soulcluster to deal with the spy on its own" and didn't even consider the possibility of losing a shelter. Good or not, if you're a PPU and you're not paying enough attention to at least attempt a recast before you get ripped to shreds, you deserved to die. I'll reiterate....I'm saying this as a moderately known and at least semi-respected PPU.
I dont need to bring my skill into a discussion at all but its to make examples of how the real fucking pvp is and not something random i just think up and post...right you dont even play, but you still stand there (sit whatever) and say SH spirit modded is fine...log in and fucking show me how fine it is...most people havent been hit from it yet because its not even been like that a week yet, so half of peoples thoughts are just guesses on how hard/weak it is....im talking in capitals.
IT DOES 100 DAMAGE, IT REMOVES YOUR FUCKING SHELTER WITHOUT ANY WARNING.
13TH--GHOST WAS RIFLE FOR ONE AND A HALF YEARS (1.5 YEARS) SO DONT TELL ME HOW NOT TO JUDGE RIFLES...I KNOW HOW HARD RIFLES ARE BUT I KNOW PISTOLS ARE BETTER.
Anyway forget it, unless you want to log in to show me how balanced spirit SH's are in the hands of PE's then get the hell logged in and dont say im german. :mad:
umm last time you said you live in finland or germany? fine fine i'll log on btw before we start complaining why don't we actually wait and see how it fares first? no?
Spies are ABUSING the mechanics of the spirit mod and the sniper rifle.
Nah. Unless KK/Devs declares it is an abuse, then it is not an abuse. It is kinda funny how any time people in these forums decide they dont like something they cry "abuse" or "exploit". Silly. Neither of those can be true until someone in an official capacity declares that to be the case. In the meantime it is merely making obvious and/or clever use of capabilities provided by the Devs ... no matter how much you may personally dislike what they're doing.
In this particular instance, i dont happen to see anything wrong with the situation. It has existed for a long time. There have been any number of occasions (since SHs were first introduced) where i have known a rifle spy to take out an opponent at pointblank range with a Silent Hunter during a circle-strafing skirmish. Can work real well if you are good at circle-strafing and dancing around. And technically it has validity in real life, albeit rather unlikely. But if KK/Devs wants to disallow pointblank SH shooting, then okay, but be sure to extend that to the other sniper rifles as well for consistency.
But then, technically speaking, shouldnt the accuracy on short range weapons (e.g. pistols) go down as range increases? Sure there are marksmen out there for whom it probably doesnt apply, but if people are going to get upset about sniper rifles and want better realism then it seems appropriate to scrutinize pistols at the same time. ;)
Spook @ Pluto
Decent ppus can work out that they need to re-shelter when they take a certain amount of damage from a weapon.
this is in no way what people think it is I just logged on and checked.
This is the situation SH debuff, ppu don't notice, switch to FL start blasting PPU , PPU notice no shelter with sudden HP drop, runs and then heal and recast shelter, switch back to SH have to wait 2-3 seconds to fire. Repeat infinity.
IMO Removing deflector is even worst. PPUs don't have much base resist force, and will get pwned quickly by a pain easer. However FL or Dizzy? easily resisted, hell even a holy heal can take enough shots from an FL.
the only problem I see is that it would be ridiculously easy to kill shelter reliant classes such as PEs and Spies, on PPUs nah...In fact its more a PE annoyance more then anything, since PEs drop quickly when their shelter is down, and they can't even stealth now. I would think it would be useful on an APU as well but I have said time and time again SH is not piss easy to aim, at close range it gives you a run slowdown more then any rifle, and if the target is moving when you click on the target, even if the second you cliked on it the target is in your reticle it will miss. This works similiarly to Healing light, you can't hit unless you constantly keep aim on the target at least 1 second after clicking unlike monk spells. There is a delay between the firing and the clicking. Only people who use SH a lot knows this. The delay is very significant when trying to hit at close range.
As I said lets give it some time and see how it goes, people god really scared with the raptor was introduced, but nothing happened. We seriously need to work on PEs now.
this is in no way what people think it is I just logged on and checked.
This is the situation SH debuff, ppu don't notice, switch to FL start blasting PPU , PPU notice no shelter with sudden HP drop, runs and then heal and recast shelter, switch back to SH have to wait 2-3 seconds to fire. Repeat infinity.
IMO Removing deflector is even worst. PPUs don't have much base resist force, and will get pwned quickly by a pain easer. However FL or Dizzy? easily resisted, hell even a holy heal can take enough shots from an FL.
the only problem I see is that it would be ridiculously easy to kill shelter reliant classes such as PEs and Spies, on PPUs nah...In fact its more a PE annoyance more then anything, since PEs drop quickly when their shelter is down, and they can't even stealth now. I would think it would be useful on an APU as well but I have said time and time again SH is not piss easy to aim, at close range it gives you a run slowdown more then any rifle, and if the target is moving when you click on the target, even if the second you cliked on it the target is in your reticle it will miss. This works similiarly to Healing light, you can't hit unless you constantly keep aim on the target at least 1 second after clicking unlike monk spells. There is a delay between the firing and the clicking. Only people who use SH a lot knows this. The delay is very significant when trying to hit at close range.
As I said lets give it some time and see how it goes, people god really scared with the raptor was introduced, but nothing happened. We seriously need to work on PEs now.
I seem to be on a totally different wavelenth in this thread. Im not arsed that spies have spirit SH's...its a spies weapon, im not arsed that it debuffs ppu's. What i am ARSED about is it debuffs you so fast, its used by PE's, its used in close range fighting...IT SHOULD NOT BE USEABLE AT THE RANGES PEOPLE USE IT AT, LIKE MY PISTOLS ARE'NT USEABLE AT 1000m's away. It has no time delay between shots (well...not half what an apu has to wait to debuff) and it does 100 damage per shot.
If i had my way id keep this gun in but my apu gets boosted to do 200 damage + s/d/heal removed for using HAB but then people would complain. The only people that think this gun is ok are the ones that 1) dont have one 2) have'nt tried to kill someone using one 3) are ppu's who rebuff at 42/min virtually running full speed and 4) fail to see how overpowered this is compared to the fucking devils holy antibuff at 200 mana per shot THEN they need to use the same set of fucking MAGIC to actually DO FUCKING DAMAGE unlike the SH shot --> gun --> shoot away at your hearts content not having to worry about dying in a few blasts of a gun and not having to worry about running out of magic AND these are the so called JOAT'S of neocron that now have 1) best resists bar a ppu/possibly ppu based hybrid 2) have good damage, Better than h-c tanks after they are debuffed 3) have the 2nd highest psi lvl in the game giving them the option of an even further damage increase, damage boost.
Im hardly new to this whole PE world...ive got 2 and i know they are fucking not underpowered without spirit SH's...hardly any pe's use damage boost even though its 6 psi lvl's under there psi cap and THAT alone makes you hit about 50 (roughly) per judge shot. Hardly any pe's use heal sanctum which makes you heal at about 15 per second with normal heal on. JUST TELL ME A GOOD REASON WHY A PE SHOULD BE ABLE TO DEBUFF PEOPLE, IF ANYTHING A TANK SHOULD HAVE A GUN THAT DOES THAT, NOT A PE.
i didnt think it was gonna be too bad, but i just experianced it
i ran out of the ug, get parad, no to band. the spy dont even bother to move instead just shoots me with a spirit sh then a few hl's and im dead
i didnt think it was gonna be too bad, but i just experianced it
i ran out of the ug, get parad, no to band. the spy dont even bother to move instead just shoots me with a spirit sh then a few hl's and im dead
That could of happened with a HAB too, maybe not as fast, but the shelter would have dissapeared none the less.
I tried my friend PPU yesterday on Pluto (when saturn went down). And i walked around wondering what to do, so i check out PP1 and come across this spy who tries to pull a SH/HL on me. Now, this is the first time EVER i play a PPU monk. As i said, its not even my own. Anyhow, the spy fires his SH, and pulls up the HL, so i heal up and re-shelter. Spy repeats his action and i do the same. Bottom line is, he can't kill me alone. So from a PPU point of stand, the spirit mod is NOT overpowered.
lol alig I think you are just too skilled. One reason for Rifle PEs to be able to debuff, because they don't do anything else and they need 2 drugs to use SH? is that not enough for you?
-=BlackBeard=-
16-06-04, 20:01
i agree the SH is being abused but i still think spys need a bit of an edge in fighting
Lucid Dream
16-06-04, 21:52
Jesus fucktastic christ, it is not abuse to use a rifle in close range!
IT IS NOT ABUSE TO USE A RIFLE IN CLOSE RANGE
No, Fuck this. I've said the same thing 3 fucking times, you can not always fight ranged. YOU CANNOT ALWAYS FIGHT RANGED, here i will say it in spanish USTED NO PUEDE LUCHAR SIEMPRE DE GAMA LARGA. and in french VOUS NE POUVEZ PAS TOUJOURS COMBATTRE DE LA LONGUE GAMME, and in german SIE KÖNNEN NICHT VON DER LANGEN STRECKE IMMER KÄMPFEN. THERE NOW YOU HAVE NO EXCUSE FOR NOT READING MY GODDAMN POST.
If you cannot always fight from long ranges, sometimes you have to fight in close range! CHRIST.
Exacly. If you even think that range actually work in PvP, feel free to stab yourself in the eye with a sharp object.
o_O I agree 90% of neocron fights end up close up. I don't even think this is so much to do with clipping range, but more to do with the game design.
Lucid Dream
16-06-04, 22:42
o_O I agree 90% of neocron fights end up close up. I don't even think this is so much to do with clipping range, but more to do with the game design.
Yes. Yes yes yes. and its more like 95%
I still don't get why people are so against using this weapon so close. If the clipping plane worked properly then I might understand, but I've fought against enemies who have spirit modded SH's among them and personally I find it isn't half as bad as people are making it out to be anyway. It's still perfectly plausable (maybe not easy, but definately possible) to survive the debuff and reshelter again before you loose too much health, if you can't then it will most likely be because of numbers more than anything, that or something like a rhino (I'm determined to kill one of those someday :p ). Personally, I've found being shot constantly with a gattling drone, or debuffed by an apu after seeing it was coming a lot harder to survive than a single shield going in a fight and those have been around for a while now.
It's not just me either, all the clan members I was fighting with found it perfectly possible to survive the spirit mod as well, all we did was try and target the spy and kill him as early as possible. Maybe this was just our lucky day or something, but personally I found it a fun addition to the game rather than the hellish, devil-weapon described here. There are a lot of powerful anti-ppu weapons out there (Terminators/Executioners/Rhino Turrets etc. etc.) all of which can kill a ppu just as easily, yet they aren't complained about half as much, I just don't get it. :confused:
That could of happened with a HAB too, maybe not as fast, but the shelter would have dissapeared none the less.
I tried my friend PPU yesterday on Pluto (when saturn went down). And i walked around wondering what to do, so i check out PP1 and come across this spy who tries to pull a SH/HL on me. Now, this is the first time EVER i play a PPU monk. As i said, its not even my own. Anyhow, the spy fires his SH, and pulls up the HL, so i heal up and re-shelter. Spy repeats his action and i do the same. Bottom line is, he can't kill me alone. So from a PPU point of stand, the spirit mod is NOT overpowered.
no its was deffinatly SH, as i saw him point it at me, and then i felt it hit me :D
HAB there is a bit of a warning, theres the spell effect. if u dont see it theres is time for sum1 on your comms to shout your being antibuffed, but there aint even a swirly on the SH.
the thing i dont like is that the spy didnt even bother to move, just stood still and shot me
later i got sweet revenge with my tank :D
no its was deffinatly SH, as i saw him point it at me, and then i felt it hit me :D
HAB there is a bit of a warning, theres the spell effect. if u dont see it theres is time for sum1 on your comms to shout your being antibuffed, but there aint even a swirly on the SH.
the thing i dont like is that the spy didnt even bother to move, just stood still and shot me
later i got sweet revenge with my tank :D
So what if you were the spy ? Would you move around and strafe, and THEN fired ur SH ? My point is, when u see the shelter come off, jusst put it back up. If you don't pay attention to your buffs, they have won. Nuff said.
This just goes to prove what happens when no one properly tests things like this on the test server... lol
Yes it sucks and should be fixed, why not contact the community rep and get it addressed asap? That would be a start.
-Tank!
So what if you were the spy ? Would you move around and strafe, and THEN fired ur SH ? My point is, when u see the shelter come off, jusst put it back up. If you don't pay attention to your buffs, they have won. Nuff said.
you come out of the ug, zoneing - 2 seconds
take a quick look at the enemy see their position - 1 second
move to a good place to get to your team to heal as the come up - 2 seconds
cast a holy heal - 1 second
total 6 seconds
time for SH to be fired, hl cast twice, fire apoc twice, 2 bursts of dev, 2 different cs burst's - 1 second
All i have to say is i wish it took away deflector instead of shelter.
I mean a piercing bullet takes away the deflector makes sense but not shelter, u have just lost ur important buff :O.
you come out of the ug, zoneing - 2 seconds
take a quick look at the enemy see their position - 1 second
move to a good place to get to your team to heal as the come up - 2 seconds
cast a holy heal - 1 second
total 6 seconds
time for SH to be fired, hl cast twice, fire apoc twice, 2 bursts of dev, 2 different cs burst's - 1 second
Yeah got outnumbered, and any PPU would probably have died in that situation. And there would jusst be a 2 seconds difference if the spy would have been a HAB monk.
Shadow Dancer
18-06-04, 03:22
you come out of the ug, zoneing - 2 seconds
take a quick look at the enemy see their position - 1 second
move to a good place to get to your team to heal as the come up - 2 seconds
cast a holy heal - 1 second
total 6 seconds
time for SH to be fired, hl cast twice, fire apoc twice, 2 bursts of dev, 2 different cs burst's - 1 second
So you want to be able to survive a very large team easily?
Lucid Dream
18-06-04, 04:30
Believe me, you ppus do not want it to be like it was before, previously, it would do 200+ damage to a FULLY BUFFED ppu. as it is now, it's purely a support weapon, change it to the way it was before? and its the most effective PPU killer in the game.
make it more efficiant at range?
(btw last night i saw a spy in bloody pp doing the same thing to a ppu)
you come out of the ug, zoneing - 2 seconds
take a quick look at the enemy see their position - 1 second
move to a good place to get to your team to heal as the come up - 2 seconds
cast a holy heal - 1 second
total 6 seconds
time for SH to be fired, hl cast twice, fire apoc twice, 2 bursts of dev, 2 different cs burst's - 1 second
Zoning - 1.3 seconds
Noticing shelter is gone - .5 seconds
Recasting shelter - .7 seconds
Casting heal - .5 seconds
Casting antidote against Dev poison stacks - .5 seconds
Total - 3.5 seconds.
it goes back to the "experienced PPU" problem.
Clownst0pper
18-06-04, 17:38
SH was not intended to be used as a shotgun O_o
Nor was the ravager intended for close range combat, but when I made a thread about it you all moaned to me saying I should get some skills.
Yet your all the same people know moaning at the SH being used as a shot gun.
This community is nothing but fucking hypocrits
Believe me, you ppus do not want it to be like it was before, previously, it would do 200+ damage to a FULLY BUFFED ppu. as it is now, it's purely a support weapon, change it to the way it was before? and its the most effective PPU killer in the game.
Exactly, prepatch spirt modded SH + terminator or any force damage weapon = bai bai mr ppu.
It is not only spy's that abuse the silent hunter.
Bare in mind that PE's last longer.
I didn't read most of the thread but this is what i have to say.
It sucks arse, when a sniper rifle, a long range killer, is used at close range effectively then it is overpowered,
I ran into the spirit mod for the first time yesterday, I was very very lucky that it was a sucky spy. Out of nowhere my shelter vanished and I was bein hit with Healing Light, he got off about 3 shots before I had my shelter back up. It's a good thing his damage was crap, or else I'd have had no chance. I dread meeting a more experienced spy, ugh.
I'm really getting tired of this attitude people have against ppu's. It's great to have us around when you need to go hunting, we're your best friends when you've got negative sl. But oh no, once we join a fight we're the spawn of satan bent on ruining your game.
It's just like I predicted back when the anti heal drone and spirit mod were first discussed. Between these, tl 3 Heal/Shelter, and APU's antibuffs, there will be a point were ppu's are killed first off in every fight. This will lead ppu's in one of two directions, they will either stop coming to fights entirely and wither away as a boring pvm class. Or the few remaining really talented ppu's will stick around and totaly dominate pvp. That's how it was early on before ppu's popped up everwhere. One or two ppu in only the biggest clans, and that ppu pretty much made the clan.
Making PPU's killable does not solve any of the problems with the class! It only makes the class more difficult to play and less rewarding. We're still way too important in every aspect of the game, simply making us killable doesn't change that.
Shadow Dancer
18-06-04, 18:34
Nor was the ravager intended for close range combat, but when I made a thread about it you all moaned to me saying I should get some skills.
Yet your all the same people know moaning at the SH being used as a shot gun.
This community is nothing but fucking hypocrits
Omg you are so right. I remember that specifically.
Btw, wouldn't a deflector removing SH be much more deadly to a ppu? I mean you could simply wait till the ppu is at half health then shoot his head, :eek: causing mayhem.
I guess it comes down to what you think the problem is. Removing shelter, or it being used close range?
spirit used to do deflector. I dealt with it at close range when it did......it was a pain in the ass and finally killed me, but I held it off for a while...
The silent hunter is better then an APU's debuff in every way, except that APU's can remove both shelter/def at the same time. Even with the low rof on the Silent Hunter, it's still much faster then anti shelter. It is much easier to suprise a PPU with a Silent Hunter then anti shelter. An APU would have to hide aswell as he can to disguise the glowing ball, and/or wait till the ppu is distracted by other hostiles. The Spy can do it whenever he wants, as long as hes not blatantly standing infront of the PPU. In the time it takes an APU to debuff me, a Spy can debuff me twice.
That it's used at close range or wether it does shelter/deflector doesn't bother me. It's that its so much better then anti shelter with very little negatives.
I think this is going to backfire on Spies though, for now at least. PPU's currently only really had to worry about APU's. Melee Tanks are annoying, but we can still handle them. But an enemy APU is trouble, the PPU will be on alert when they show up. Now though, we will add ALL SPIES to that list. If a Spy shows up he will be considered Extremely Dangerous and taken out as quickly as possible. Just the same way we'd treat an enemy APU.
As a PPU I'm a lot nicer then most, I don't participate in a fight unless an enemy PPU is present or we're outnumbered. But the introduction of more ways to debuff me and how aggressivly people attack me, I will soon change my ways. Spies and APUs will not get the benefit of the doubt anymore, they will be shocked, boosted, and sent on their way. Tanks and PE's can be treated a little less cautiously, though they will try to TL3 Heal me, which means I will also be doing whatever I can to impair them. I wish I didn't have too, but I'm not gonna make it so easy to kill me anymore. I think the few PPU's who did hold back before will be doing similar to this and begin to treat everyone as a possible threat. No more Mr Nice PPU : p
Shadow Dancer
18-06-04, 19:52
LMFAO Carinth. I can taste the venom in your post.
:lol:
Lucid Dream
18-06-04, 20:53
We seem to have 2 issues in this thread:
1) (and keep in mind, im merely restating what others have said, i dont necessarilly agree with these) the spirit mod is inherantly overpowered.
2) the spirit moded SH used in close range is abuse
3) there is no downside to using a spirit modded SH
on point number 1, perhaps it is a little overpowered (this is coming from a spy who uses the spirit SH exclusively) it is a bit unfair to expect a PPU to be able to take care of his team, and keep himself alive, with random debuffs from a sniper rifle, in my oppinion, at the least, you should get the damage boost sound when you get hit, indicating you are debuffed... That said, in the numerous op fights ive been at since getting this gun, the only time we absolutely ********** more then a few ppus, was when i was debuffing, and another guy was gunning a rhino.
on point 2, no, it is not abuse. in order for it to be abused, it has to be used in a way not intended for the weapon to be used, and if you remember, the original SH was intended for long range fighting only, it had a zoom on constantly, but it was much much more powerful and effective, then, they 'nerfed' it a bit, did less damage over time and such, but they did that, at the same time making the gun usable at close range! KK conciously made the decision to allow the SH to be used in close range! It is not abuse, if they MEANT FOR IT TO BE THAT WAY.
on point 3, there is no downside to using the SH, yes, i agree, that is a problem. There should be an inherant advantage to using the spirit mod, the thing is godawfully expensive, but it should not be as powerful as a regular SH, and do debuff without some downside perhaps it should stop you from being able to stealth for a given time.. or cause damage to you when you fire it.. or something, but it must not be nerfed so much that it is not worth getting..
how about firing a spirit modded SH inflicting 4% si on the user, just like when drones blow up?
Clownst0pper
18-06-04, 22:01
how about firing a spirit modded SH inflicting 4% si on the user, just like when drones blow up?
Yeah that 4% would then take off your PA (if you have inq setup) stop u using your stealth tool (if you have 80 high tech) and remove your ability to wear any armour what so ever.
Sure...
Thats the worst idea ive EVER heard
Yeah that 4% would then take off your PA (if you have inq setup) stop u using your stealth tool (if you have 80 high tech) and remove your ability to wear any armour what so ever.
Sure...
Thats the worst idea ive EVER heard
the idea is that you'd have to spec to it, rather than use a self sustaining PA. 4% si lasts about 10-15 seconds, if I recall correctly. In any case, if you're a spy and using inquisition 1, you're already speccing outside of your class anyway. The tradeoff to this is that only people that dedicate themselves to the task of being spirit snipers can be spirit snipers.
the idea is that you'd have to spec to it, rather than use a self sustaining PA. 4% si lasts about 10-15 seconds, if I recall correctly. In any case, if you're a spy and using inquisition 1, you're already speccing outside of your class anyway. The tradeoff to this is that only people that dedicate themselves to the task of being spirit snipers can be spirit snipers.
lol Rai draws his own picture of a spy firing an SH, then he suddenly is in his boxers, his gun dissapears and he is peeing in his pants.
Lucid Dream
18-06-04, 23:32
the 4% SI thing really dosnt work.. i mean, ok, using SF SA Bal 3 and Dist 3 which is probably the most common spy setup as far as brain imps, on a completely capped spy, using pa3, and lets say exp back bone, would give 119 dex not including pa, 125 with pa, drop the base stats by 4%, would leave 96 dex.. +SA +SF +Bal3 +backbone gives... uh.. 115 dex, just enough for the PA to stay on.. and most of the battle 2/3 armor would stay on with 4% SI... you would have to spec a bit of t-c for the stealth.. so technically you could be fine with 4%, but more then 2 shots within 30 seconds, and you are fucked, one shot you can barely, just barely stay ok, 2 shots and you are fucked. holy antibuff takes what, 3 seconds to cast? the problem with the spirit SH is that it is faster then antibuff, and it gives no warning right? well, making it take 30 seconds per shot is hardly a solution to making it slower...
instead of fucking a spy as far as armor and such if he happens to fire the gun twice within half a minute, why not just do 2 things, A) make it like it looks like it was originally inteded IE only 1 shot to a clip, and b) make the reload time about 4 seconds?
Shadow Dancer
19-06-04, 00:04
Just curious, for all those who complain about there being no warning....why do you think ppus even deserve a warning when it comes to being stripped of their shelter?
arg now my ppu got killed by a spy who was stealthing and doing it :/
{MD}GeistDamnit
19-06-04, 13:16
Why in gods name must everything get nerfed? :(
SH was fine the way it was, just put it back to taking off deflector. As for nerfing the clip or ROF on the SH dont even go there, that is the shittest thing I have ever heard :mad: The gun honestly sucks as it is now, only the spirit moded sh's are worth using because of the low ROF and small clip.
Why in gods name must everything get nerfed? :(
SH was fine the way it was, just put it back to taking off deflector. As for nerfing the clip or ROF on the SH dont even go there, that is the shittest thing I have ever heard :mad: The gun honestly sucks as it is now, only the spirit moded sh's are worth using because of the low ROF and small clip.
I'd consider jusst getting the spirit ammo clips to 1 shot/clip. But not all the other damage types, as the clip for those allready are too small.
The SH doesn't need a nerf, it's allready a shitty rifle, one among the other shitty rifles. The drugging PE's abusing the SH DOES need one. But thats another discussion.
Just curious, for all those who complain about there being no warning....why do you think ppus even deserve a warning when it comes to being stripped of their shelter?
does the word overpowered mean anything to u? maybe it should u use it enough i have been to two op fites in the last days where ppu's on my side and ppu's on the enemy's just have a spy chasing them constant antishelt and they don't even have time to heal themselves fully cus shelt is gone again
does the word overpowered mean anything to u? maybe it should u use it enough i have been to two op fites in the last days where ppu's on my side and ppu's on the enemy's just have a spy chasing them constant antishelt and they don't even have time to heal themselves fully cus shelt is gone again
A PPU calling something overpowered? :lol:
Why doesn't the PPU just use his fabled 'escape tool' (:rolleyes:) - parashock the spy, and run off? That's what you all claim parashock is for, yet you don't even try to use it because it never really occurs to you to use it defensively.
You won't accept any solutions to PPUs, you won't even accept that there's a problem - and this is what happens. I've been saying it for months now, so has Carinth, nobody listens, and oh look, KK are making life hell for PPUs.
Clownst0pper
19-06-04, 18:37
A PPU calling something overpowered? :lol:
Why doesn't the PPU just use his fabled 'escape tool' (:rolleyes:) - parashock the spy, and run off? That's what you all claim parashock is for, yet you don't even try to use it because it never really occurs to you to use it defensively.
You won't accept any solutions to PPUs, you won't even accept that there's a problem - and this is what happens. I've been saying it for months now, so has Carinth, nobody listens, and oh look, KK are making life hell for PPUs.
People saying PPU's are overpowered! NEVER! ive never heard that once on these forums.
It does make you smile though, the moment something affects the PPU, they all hit the forums, until then, ignorance is bliss, no?
Shadow Dancer
20-06-04, 01:44
A PPU calling something overpowered? :lol:
Why doesn't the PPU just use his fabled 'escape tool' (:rolleyes:) - parashock the spy, and run off? That's what you all claim parashock is for, yet you don't even try to use it because it never really occurs to you to use it defensively.
Best post in this thread. It's soooooooo true.
http://neocron.jafc.de/images/icons/icon14.gif
You won't accept any solutions to PPUs, you won't even accept that there's a problem - and this is what happens. I've been saying it for months now, so has Carinth, nobody listens, and oh look, KK are making life hell for PPUs.
I know right. Every damn suggestion is "destroying the class" or "making it unfun for ppus everywhere". If you tweak ONE spell, suddenly the class is useless. Always exaggerating, and never accepting any ideas.
Then they get surprised when stuff like this happens. Pfftttt
Why doesn't the PPU just use his fabled 'escape tool' (:rolleyes:) - parashock the spy, and run off? That's what you all claim parashock is for, yet you don't even try to use it because it never really occurs to you to use it defensively.
That's not fair, if parashock was that effective then we'd never worry about APU's either. If the ppu is alone, or only worying about himelf, then sure shock the spy/apu and get away. It works as long as theres no enemy ppu to shock you aswell. But the ppu's primary purpose is to support a team, if he's running away he can't well do that.
I can't begin to describe how fustrating it is/will be to play a ppu that can't do much more then keep himself alive. I'm supposed to be a defensive specialist, yet everyone has a means to cripple me. Because I specialized in defense, I can't attack or deter enemies. I'm supposed to be supporting a team, but because of how often I'm debuffed I can't stay near them. Sure I can recover and prolly outlive my team, but that just means it's time to run away again. I did not pick ppu because I like to run away from my enemies.
Now some of that was exaggeration, a good ppu can certainly keep his team alive even with some debuffing going on. But that's were it's heading. I've never been tl 3 healed so many times as in the past week. I'm desheltered by a spirit silent hunter repeatedly (thank god his damage on HL sucks). I'm debuffed by apu's around every other corner. Next I bet the anti heal drone will be fixed up to be useful and I'll have droners after me aswell.
Instead of coming up with more special means to kill ppu's, just make us weaker ffs. Make it so a single person can kill a ppu using their normal rares. The effect will be the same, keeping ppu's out of pvp.
That's not fair, if parashock was that effective then we'd never worry about APU's either. If the ppu is alone, or only worying about himelf, then sure shock the spy/apu and get away. It works as long as theres no enemy ppu to shock you aswell. But the ppu's primary purpose is to support a team, if he's running away he can't well do that. It's not fair for me to get paraspammed by a PPU I can't scratch either - but parashock is still in, on the grounds that PPUs use it defensively.
I do feel sorry for you Carinth. I've suggested and supported ideas about the PPU class, and you've suggested and supported them. Others, like Cannings, have simply said no to everything and refused to even accept there is a problem. The result is that all PPUs are being made to suffer because KK have no ideas with the full backing of the community so they're going about it in the wrong way. I'm OK, because I'm not a PPU. You however, are suffering because of other PPUs ignorance, and that sucks. But until the rest of the PPU world get their heads out of the clouds, things are going to get worse, because they believe that if they say No to every idea posted in the community, they won't get nerfed. And they care a lot more about not getting nerfed than they do about becoming a better support class.
EDIT: Besides, maybe that's the direction KK want things to go in. The PPU provides a massive bonus to his team, but it's all channelled through the PPU. Distract him, make him concentrate on staying alive, and his team will slowly weaken. Perhaps some PPUs' teams just need to realise that if there's a spy chasing their PPU with an SH maybe they should shoot that spy a few times?
EDIT: Besides, maybe that's the direction KK want things to go in. The PPU provides a massive bonus to his team, but it's all channelled through the PPU. Distract him, make him concentrate on staying alive, and his team will slowly weaken. Perhaps some PPUs' teams just need to realise that if there's a spy chasing their PPU with an SH maybe they should shoot that spy a few times?
If so then I kk needs to boost some other aspect of the ppu. Currently we have tons of restrictions/penalties in the form of bugs/imbalances that aren't addressed because "we're hard to kill." Things like how a ppu risks way more then anyone else in pvp, is really the only class that drops valuable loot. If ppu's aren't going to be super defense specialists who're hard to kill, then we don't need all these maluses. I don't like the idea of rampant debuffing, but I can see it as a viable way to leash ppu's. But that ontop of all the existing maluses of being a ppu is too much. We'll have no incentive to play ppu.
Also, though there are PPU's that don't care about balance, I get more resistance from the non-PPU's. They won't be satisfied until a single person can kill a PPU. If they hafta debuff or use noob buffs, that's fine, whatever works. When I point out how that will ruin ppu's and make them so unfun as to not be played anymore, the response is "so? that's a good thing, no more ppu's ruining pvp. huzzah!"
Clownst0pper
21-06-04, 18:19
If so then I kk needs to boost some other aspect of the ppu. Currently we have tons of restrictions/penalties in the form of bugs/imbalances that aren't addressed because "we're hard to kill." Things like how a ppu risks way more then anyone else in pvp, is really the only class that drops valuable loot. If ppu's aren't going to be super defense specialists who're hard to kill, then we don't need all these maluses. I don't like the idea of rampant debuffing, but I can see it as a viable way to leash ppu's. But that ontop of all the existing maluses of being a ppu is too much. We'll have no incentive to play ppu.
Also, though there are PPU's that don't care about balance, I get more resistance from the non-PPU's. They won't be satisfied until a single person can kill a PPU. If they hafta debuff or use noob buffs, that's fine, whatever works. When I point out how that will ruin ppu's and make them so unfun as to not be played anymore, the response is "so? that's a good thing, no more ppu's ruining pvp. huzzah!"
Its a sad thing really. I play a friends PPU quite often, and its becomming tiresom actually trying to PPU your allies, while actually staying alive with the obsene amount of Anti shelters on you.
Mosquito/Holy Anti buff/TL3 heal/Spirit ammo, there needs to be a line drawn as to what a PPU actually is. As atm there not actually a support class, there a lifeline to so many bad, and good players.
Until we create a balance where they are "supporting" rather than keeping alive, there only going to get worse, before it gets better.
It needs nerfing, end of story. With its current effect it will be a nightmare on pluto when kurai comes back (and he has one).
Can not fire any weapon for 4+ seconds, would be a start (as lucid says) or a really BIG flash when you fire it (something like a rez++) or both.
Also, though there are PPU's that don't care about balance, I get more resistance from the non-PPU's. They won't be satisfied until a single person can kill a PPU.
When a ppu can be dropped with ease by one person (regardless of class) is when you can throw the PPU away. How can you support a team if your dead?
Original monk
22-06-04, 11:35
Why doesn't the PPU just use his fabled 'escape tool' (:rolleyes:) - parashock the spy, and run off? That's what you all claim parashock is for, yet you don't even try to use it because it never really occurs to you to use it defensively.
after i went to asg, take my hover, ride up the mountain and am behind the sniperspy then fo sure i will start to freeze and DB em to finally woop he's ass with my ultimated phosphor assault rifle :)
that is if he didnt see me comming from 8 km away and obliteraterd gently to the other side of the zone :)
I find it funny, that the community of months on end requested/bitched/shouted for parashock to be removed... what do they do? they give spys a weapon to remove shelter to help kill the PPU rather than remove the thing that was making life difficult
well its too late now for SPirit mods to be removed from the game as their already in circulation *shrugs* i say keep them like the terminator used to be... RARE AS FUCK i still wish for the termi to be as rare as it was but hey... so much for uniquness
well allow me to be the first to welcome you all to SPYOCRON!
*shakes head* should of just ditched para and given them a rare SC.... why does no one listen
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