View Full Version : Allied Vs Allied Faction - Continued
Maloch Octavia
12-06-04, 07:54
http://forum.neocron.com/showthread.php?p=1418874#post1418874
Well, the Moderators locked the last thread, which is fair enough, it was getting a bit one sided.
After some evaluation, I admitted the truth, and that we all know who's to blame.
So lets argue this out in a different style, and lets see if they can justify themselves in the Game World.
Follow the link for some In Character discussion of the matter.
Lets be nice about this. :)
(It happened again today, ruined an entire night of gaming for six of us.... Fucksake)
Gotterdammerung
12-06-04, 08:44
[ edit ]
I'll give this thread 1 good chance for everybody to discuss it smartly and keep it in your pants.
Will the same-old/same-old get this thread closed again or will everyone rise to the occasion and try to keep this above boards ?
lets give it a try !!! Ok campers ??
ResurgencE
12-06-04, 08:59
Fine by me. Its a good thing you locked the last thread, or my final response would be devastating. ;) I pm'd my refutation to the parties involved already, since it concerns no one else except him and myself, and it was stupid of me to bring it to the forums.
Now, in regards to this thread. What exactly is to be discussed here? Are we looking for ways to prevent killing allied members who do not consent to fighting, or re-thinking the SL loss so that we CAN do it...Or what?
I agree, good job last thread was closed, i think i may have got a temp ban or something, i dont know.
Anyway the only thing ill say about the last thread is obviously some people don't know me to well to call me a carebear, just because i don't go around pking allied players, doesn't put me in that catagory, but im far from carebear trust me on that, I only come back to this game time and time again coz i miss the PvP, its the best thing about the game, hands down.
Anyway moving on, suggestions and answers on how a sensible fix can be found to this common problem, one which would make both "sides" of the fence happy to live with.
So, we all know that sometimes even allied players can be annoying to such extreme's that you will pull your gun and waste them without a word, but even this must come at a cost, but not the silly one like the SL system when you have some idiot who will taunt you into going red SL over and over.
No this needs to be based on Faction symp, not SL, because obviously you can kill someone in a warzone, it should still have its punishment.
Suggestions so far have been tougher penalty on symp loss, maybe tougher for your clan your in? what about unclanned runners doing this? maybe after a time they get booted from the faction? this happens now to a point, people go factionless, but are then still allied to all factions? not 100% sure on that as never been factionless.
Ok so lets say runner X kills runner Y, both are allied and it don't matter what type of zone they are in.
Runner X takes a symp hit, losing say 10 points, nothing to major, they also lose say 5 points to all allied factions with runner Y
Lets say runner X was at 50 symp with his faction, he is now down to 40, its nothing major, can do some missions or something to regain it if he/she so chooses. Now Runner X is trigger happy, he doesn't like people coz he has problems with being around people, so he goes on a rampage, killing 5 allied runners, he loses a total of 50 points in his faction, and 25 for all allied factions from runners Y......and so on.
X is now at 0 symp, and possibly -25 with allied factions to runner Y
In time although this won't stop the killing 100% it should limit the people who do it for kicks to those who want to RP that type of murderer, give the killers something to RP with, killing.
Now lets take it further, say runner X repeats the process over and over in a few weeks, in the end he goes to something below -50 symp with his faction, if he is unclanned he gets booted from his faction and is KOS to the guards from it, also by now all the allied factions are obviously on alert for him for being a wanted man, Public enemy No 1.
He risks death now from several factions, is classed as red to all Y factions as it should be tbh, im sure if you got gangs and turf war and a certain member was killing people from the other gangs, hell yes he would be KOS to all those gangs without question, regardless of his past, its what he is doing at the point in time.
But we need a flip side to it, like Jest pointed out, if we ride the F6 train, we must also be allowed to regain the trust of a faction "in other words a sensible way to regain symp without resorting to a mule char killing at a GR to gain symp"
A slight increase in faction symp gain when killing a enemy to your faction only, and only enemy to it, you get nothing from allied people or neutrals, obviously.
So you kill a enemy runner, maybe something like the epic rule, combat ranks permitting to something like 10<---my rank---->10, just like epic kills, that way we don't get abuse of the system of a GR killing, and it encourages the combat even in warzones to gain some symp, after all your obtaining a outpost for your faction, not just for your clan to GR somewhere or that blob on the map, its the faction that you should get the reward from, don't we want more better rewards from factions and outposts?
So lets say they have combat rank near yours, war goes on and you kill a enemy, obviously you get nothing in a hunting ground, but anarchy and warzones you get something like 5 points?
This is just a idea, trying to get the convo going and some suggestions to it, what you all think, killers and victims ?
Liebestoter
12-06-04, 12:07
Step One - Impose harsh punishments for killing a runner on an allied faction.
Step Two - Allow clans to declare war on allied clans, temporarily turning each other red and making themselves exempt from said harsh punishment and SL hits. Only three or four such wars should be allowed at a time.
Step Three - Profit.
greendonkeyuk
12-06-04, 14:16
1,2,3,4 i declare clan war.
Step Two - Allow clans to declare war on allied clans, temporarily turning each other red and making themselves exempt from said harsh punishment and SL hits.
i agree with that
Only three or four such wars should be allowed at a time. disagree here, if the clan wishes to fight many allies then they should be allowed to if they declare it, remember the enemy still has to accept the war delaration, when both sides agree to fight i think there should be np with it, if a clan wants 100 allied clans as enemies and they all agree then they should be able to have it
Just cos some1s in an allied faction doesnt mean that they cant be killed!
yes their in an allied faction but, they themselfs are not allies. :eek:
And BD are ment to be allied with noone or atleast they are not ment to be trusted ;)
Doc Holliday
12-06-04, 17:35
Just cos some1s in an allied faction doesnt mean that they cant be killed!
yes their in an allied faction but, they themselfs are not allies. :eek:
And BD are ment to be allied with noone or atleast they are not ment to be trusted ;)
its idiotic posts like that that give black dragon its charmin reputation on saturn. implement clan wars. dont put a limit on it about how many active wars. punish the allied clan killers. raise the symp gain for killing enemy runners too. warzones are warzones. they are fine as is. as stated above 1234 i declare clan war. also the ability for clans to be booted out of the faction and become factionless is a must. have a min sympathy the clan has to retain to stay with it. that way if too many arseholes cause too much trouble they get booted. that stops kids and idiots hiding behind we are bd we are criminals so we must mindlessly pk. it started with all of these asshats who had to do this being tg on the servers due to the fact hi pops brought in new people who went pro city straight away as it was deemed safest. now its moved to blackdragon as they have the most anti city enemies amongst the anti city factions. its still not p.c or even considered cool to be pro city at this time it seems.
Just cos some1s in an allied faction doesnt mean that they cant be killed!
yes their in an allied faction but, they themselfs are not allies. :eek:
And BD are ment to be allied with noone or atleast they are not ment to be trusted ;)
Where are you getting your information from? It's not accurate.
When I refer to my handy dandy wheel of sympathy it clearly shows that Black Dragons are allied to Biotech, Crahn, and Protopharma. TG is clearly the most hard core faction with only 2 allies on the wheel. :p Just because current populations of the game are low doesn't justify killing allies.
So I will refer to my statement in the original thread. You should not be able to hack ops from allied factions. Neither should you be able to be at war with them. If allied factions hold all the ops, and you don't like the established clans in those factions, but you still want to have ops, then you should have to change factions to do so.
And allied factions should not be targetable by weapons. Interfaction relations > your clan's problems with other clans. Clearly KK must remove friendly fire as some people can't handle themselves on a higher sphere of interfaction relationships.
The reason that we have allied factions is so that it is not total war. You're expected to be at least cordial to your allies so if someone from an allied faction is taunting you or being rude just put them on ignore and ostracize them. Notify your clan leader and let him talk to their clan leader and if a resolution cannot be reached just put their whole outfit on ignore. Or move to a faction that is allowed to do something about it ala that one clan that left TG to become BD so they could stomp on TG.
Richard Blade
12-06-04, 18:34
Thanks for a second chance Gotter.
Warning, I'm at work and typed this up over the last couple hours. Kinda wordy.
@ YoDa-UK
I agree with most of your stuff with some additions or subtractions.
No this needs to be based on Faction symp, not SL, because obviously you can kill someone in a warzone, it should still have its punishment.
Absolutely, couldn’t agree more strongly. Although, warzone killing should have a lighter penalty, but not so light it can be abused.
Suggestions so far have been tougher penalty on symp loss, maybe tougher for your clan your in? what about unclanned runners doing this? maybe after a time they get booted from the faction? this happens now to a point, people go factionless, but are then still allied to all factions? not 100% sure on that as never been factionless.
Factionless should be a bannable offense until / if they add a “murderers faction”. Which I don’t agree with.
In time although this won't stop the killing 100% it should limit the people who do it for kicks to those who want to RP that type of murderer, give the killers something to RP with, killing.
If the “killer” in question is truly acting the part of a murderer, this is good. The controls have to be in place to prevent griefing behavior just because they can.
But we need a flip side to it, like Jest pointed out, if we ride the F6 train, we must also be allowed to regain the trust of a faction "in other words a sensible way to regain symp without resorting to a mule char killing at a GR to gain symp"
As Luke Skywalker knows, it’s easy to go to the darkside. It’s much harder to come back. And, I’d like to see it that way here too. To come back to the good grace of their faction, and allies, should be a measure of hard work. So, losses need to be steep to prevent the actions in the first place. Gains should be low so that it isn’t a yo-yo effect and turn the original “punishment” into a joke by being able to kill and enemy of X faction to raise Y sympathy.
So you kill a enemy runner, maybe something like the epic rule, combat ranks permitting to something like 10<---my rank---->10, just like epic kills, that way we don't get abuse of the system of a GR killing, and it encourages the combat even in warzones to gain some symp, after all your obtaining a outpost for your faction, not just for your clan to GR somewhere or that blob on the map, its the faction that you should get the reward from, don't we want more better rewards from factions and outposts?
The paragraph above kinda covers this too.
Nice analogy, and proposals.
@ Liebstoter
I hope they can implement a clan warfare system soon. Or, finish the one that is there and make it work right.
@Ezza
If a clan is at war with all it’s allies and faction clans as well, then they shouldn’t be in that faction. As they aren’t furthering their factions goals by fighting with friends and business partners.
@L3mon
Just cos some1s in an allied faction doesnt mean that they cant be killed!
yes their in an allied faction but, they themselfs are not allies.
And BD are ment to be allied with noone or atleast they are not ment to be trusted
People aren’t saying they can’t be killed, but the repetitive killings don’t follow the structure of the game, and make RP impossible. There would probably be more people outwardly roleplaying if they knew they weren’t going to be slaughtered when they thought that they were in a safe place with allies near. ( not safe zones )
Everyone has their own interpretation of how their faction is meant to be played. Maybe we should all go back and read the information provided about the factions we choose to play in. Your interpretation of who is and isn’t allies might be a bit strict. Someone you don’t know is your ally by way of the structure of the game, not because they are in an enemy faction and are your best friend / pk’ing buddy.
@ DonnyJepp
And allied factions should not be targetable by weapons. Interfaction relations > your clan's problems with other clans. Clearly KK must remove friendly fire as some people can't handle themselves on a higher sphere of interfaction relationships.
LOL This is a perfect way to stop the guys who are PK’ing with their factionless characters. Since they are allied to everyone, they wouldn’t be able to aim at anyone.
I stated on the nearly last post on the closed thread that KK would need to decide if this game is to be a roleplay, or FPS type game. Some people don’t want RP forced on them, the rest don’t want what I call “Quake” style play. I love opfights with my spy. He’s the one I use the most. I don’t actively PK or raid with him. It’s not worth it to me. But, that’s just how I play. My friends and I roleplay occasionally but not as much as we could. We would more if given a more stable political environment. Read as: Not being killed by allies.
I’ve seen several good ideas so far in this thread, I hope KK takes them into consideration.
And allied factions should not be targetable by weapons. Interfaction relations > your clan's problems with other clans. Clearly KK must remove friendly fire as some people can't handle themselves on a higher sphere of interfaction relationships.
yes there are some good ideas but thats just silly and will never work.
But at the end of the day unless clan wars come into the game BD and anyother fac will still kill people in allied facs. Its part of the game allways has allways will be.
But i wish clan wars would come into the game, solve alot of problems imo
@Ezza
If a clan is at war with all it’s allies and faction clans as well, then they shouldn’t be in that faction. As they aren’t furthering their factions goals by fighting with friends and business partners.
they may have reasons maybe they dont, but its still there choice.
since you HAVE to be in a faction, then you chose a faction you like, you can choice the people in your clan but not the faction, if you dont like them, then you fight them, thats how i look at it
Shadow Dancer
12-06-04, 20:11
Look, ezza made a great point. Since you HAVE to be in faction, he said.
That's a problem IMO. Their should be a murderer faction. Or "outlaw". And no I don't mean Anarchy Breed ffs. :rolleyes: This murderer faction should just be considered scum and untrustworthy individuals. Players should be kicked to this faction, and always appear red(like a RED sl individual) to all other players.
yes there are some good ideas but thats just silly and will never work.
But at the end of the day unless clan wars come into the game BD and anyother fac will still kill people in allied facs. Its part of the game allways has allways will be.
But i wish clan wars would come into the game, solve alot of problems imo
Apparently I am not making a dent here. Let me try it again.
As a member of faction X you agree implicitly to abide by that faction's rules which include honoring alliances between said green factions. In a real life situation (tenuous argument I know) your own faction members would kill you to prevent you from disrupting relationships with their allies because alliances > your wish to kill someone that pisses you off. By killing allied faction members you are being insubordinate to the leaders of your faction and that would not be tolerated. Clans, clan leaders, and clan members > faction leaders and storyline-imposed faction relationships.
The standard rebuttal seems to be that "har har we'll kill whomever we please, then run some missions, and everything will be kosher again." and I'm saying that this is completely unrealistic and the attitude is to the detriment of all players of the game. You don't have the ability to affect interfaction relations because they are locked at this time by the storyline. What you're doing by disregarding this is disrespecting the playing field that KK has staged for us. If you have no respect for the game, it says something about your own personal character as a player of Neocron.
When I read in the storyline that faction X is allied to faction Y, but then faction X's players seem to operate in total disregard to those facts, then obviously something is wrong with the current implementation.
If interfaction relations worked on a sliding scale such that if the majority of faction X's players attacked allied faction Y's players then it caused an adjustment of the allied status to neutral and eventually hostile, that might alleviate the problem. But the majority of players seem to like the current arrangement of letting the storyline and their faction's NPC leaders decide whom they're allied to and enemies with.
@Shad I tend to agree however the murderer faction should not be allowed to have clans or hold ops.
Apparently I am not making a dent here.
Because the fac system doesnt work end of.
Yes you are making a good Argument to prove your points but when it comes to it ingame it just doesnt work, i wish it did.
I and other people dont go around killing fac allies cos were bored, its because for example; there could be a history with another runner and so we kill him what ever fac hes in, most of the time i dont look at the faction tag i look at the name and its the same for most people.
Shadow Dancer
12-06-04, 21:00
Lemon, I don't think the threadstarter is referring to that. I think they just mean totally unprovoked hostility from an allied runner whom they don't know or haven't wronged. I don't think they are referring to the situations where X runners hates and knows Y, and kills him no matter what.
At least I don't think they are. Some players DO go around killing allied players for reasons other than the one you stated.
Some players DO go around killing allied players for reasons other than the one you stated.
This is true. I dont :angel:
@Shad I tend to agree however the murderer faction should not be allowed to have clans or hold ops.
Perfect answer, but dont make it to easy coz you again end up with faction hoppers coz their m8's joined it, we see to much faction changing going on all the time, where is the loyalty!
Killer faction, the scum, outlaws, doesn't have to be RED SL, but it could be RP'ed like that, with the Jail in there too as a sort of base?, a sort of break away section of BD and TS who don't like thier faction leaders keeping them under control, they have to kill people in this way and risk death over everything else to be dumped into this semi faction.
But totally agree, no outposts and no clans are allowed with it, would give people something to think about i reckon. After that a cash system can be put in on those players heads, making the "good guy" or Law abiding people hunt them down, wow talk about RP and high end content! :eek: ;)
Shadow Dancer
12-06-04, 21:15
Lemon, I believe you. :cool:
@Shad I tend to agree however the murderer faction should not be allowed to have clans or hold ops.
I agree 100%.
Perfect answer, but dont make it to easy coz you again end up with faction hoppers coz their m8's joined it, we see to much faction changing going on all the time, where is the loyalty!
Killer faction, the scum, outlaws, doesn't have to be RED SL, but it could be RP'ed like that, with the Jail in there too as a sort of base?, a sort of break away section of BD and TS who don't like thier faction leaders keeping them under control, they have to kill people in this way and risk death over everything else to be dumped into this semi faction.
But totally agree, no outposts and no clans are allowed with it, would give people something to think about i reckon. After that a cash system can be put in on those players heads, making the "good guy" or Law abiding people hunt them down, wow talk about RP and high end content! :eek: ;)
Yea that's what I had in mind. I just didn't go indepth. :p
Maloch Octavia
12-06-04, 22:58
I once made a lengthy and detailed post on a solution to this on Brainport. Guess what happened to it? :)
Now please read all of this, it looks complicated, but I think it can work.... I really do..
Okay... Some of the following changes are mainly cosmetic, but keep things realistic:
Change Faction Sympathy to Faction Loyalty, it better explains what it means.
Faction Loyalty (From hereon in- FL) works on a scale of Minus 100 to Plus 100.
-100 Means that Faction despises you, you're marked as Wanted on their Bounty Boards, and you stand very, very little chance of ever getting back into that Faction.
Zero means you are either a new Runner to the Faction, or that you are on Neutral standing with the Faction, they neither love you nor hate you.
+100 Means that Faction loves you to bits, you're honoured as one of their best. Benefits include maybe cheaper prices on Faction related products, and a harsher punishment for anyone that might attack the Factions beloved Runner.
At Zero point, if you sink into the Minus, you are immediately kicked out of the Faction. You recieve an email at your term, stating you are no longer welcome within the Faction, and that if you wish to appeal, contact the HR Manager. (Depending on your Minus level, he will give you various difficult Missions to do, that regain your FL)
Now, the mechanics..
If you are +100, and you kill someone in the same Faction, if they are in one of a set of fields, 0-10, 11-20, 21-30, and so on, you will take an FL hit.
Lets say that for the first level, you'll take -11, then the second, -22, so for every level, you'll take a further eleven points. So that if a +100 player, kills a +100 player, they will lose 110 points, and get kicked out of the Faction.
Now, when you get kicked out of the Faction, you are Barred from reapplying to join, for a set period of time.
If you are -10, it's one week, -20, two weeks, and beyond -50, you cannot reapply, until you are above -50. So the countdown to be able to even ask to rejoin, doesn't start until you're above -50. What this means, if you're -10, you've got one week to work it up to zero, before you can rejoin the Faction.
When you reapply, you get set Missions, as I stated, depending on your level, and you then have to work up. These are not Aggie Missions, or Cyclops Missions, these are complicated, lengthy Missions. Lots of running around, not so much on the killing. You've pissed off the Faction, they're going to use you as their work monkey for the low stuff. No fun Pk'ing here.
Now, if you just lose points, and you are still in the Plus, you can work back up by again doing Missions, but maybe these could be your normal Term Missions, maybe something a bit more challenging.
They are designed in levels too, so you need 'X' FL to apply for them, and for FL 90+, they become stupidly difficult, and give you only one or two points. Make it a challenge to reach the top, for reasons I'll mention later.
You now have a functioning Faction Loyalty system.
This in turn, is backed up by a Faction Reputation. The Reputation is a purely 'Faction side' score, and doesn't really come into play. It basically logs how many Faction Runners you have killed, that belong to that Faction, or an Allied Faction, and quite simply, when you hit a set number, you get kicked out too.
So if you are +100, and you kill lots of First Level people, losing 11 points, building up, rinsing and repeating, your kill tally at the Faction office will be climbing, and eventually you'll be kicked.
This prevents people from abusing the system. You can only go so far before you are punished for your crimes, no matter how hard you try to cover them up.
That is the one big abuse closed off.
Now, from reading above, you can see how people within your own Faction will be punished, if they kill each other, and what they risk by doing so.
As for people from Neutral Factions, attacking Neutral Factions, if you attack people that are in levels one to five, as in, no higher than +50 FL, then you get small rewards to your own FL points, nothing much.
However, if a Neutral Faction Runner kills another Neutral Faction Runner from a different Faction, that is above +50, then they will lose FL from their own Faction.
Why? Well, you're bringing undue notice now, to the Factions, and risk the Neutral basis upon which they operate. Your Faction doesn't mind you bumping off low FL Runners from other Neutral Factions, but when it gets to the high FL Runners, that Faction starts taking notice, and contacts your Faction complaining.
Now, if two Hostile Factions attack each other, then for Level one to five, you'll gain maybe five points per kill, to your own FL, but if you kill someone of say, FL 100, then you'll get maybe thirty or so points. A good way to climb up the ladder.
You will also gain points for a Neutral or Hostile kill, depending on how their Minus FL is to your Faction. So you can't have a high score within your own Faction, and keep everyone elses at zero, just to prevent people getting kill points.
So there you have a Rewards and Punishment system, using Faction Loyalty, and how it interacts. With little room for abuse.
As for Soullight, it could be theoretically removed, with Faction Guards, Bots, and NPC's reacting to your Faction Loyalty instead. IE: Faction Guards wont let you in if you have crap FL, you might not get into the City if you've crap FL with Cityadmin, etcetc.
Now for those that are kicked out of their Faction, they now have choices.
You have two other groups you can join.
One is the Outlaws, and they are the nasty, nasty people, that are Hostile to everyone, and have no punishments for killing anyone.
However, these people have no access to Neocron nor Dome of York, neither side want criminals in their cities. They also have no access to TechHaven or Military Base, same applies here.
They might be allowed to get into certain parts of TG Canyon, but that's up for debate.
These people essentially have to live in the Wastelands, the only storage space they'll have will be their GoGo's, and there will be bonuses for killing these people, but on limited numbers.
These will essentially be the Bounty Board people. If someone goes Outlaw, they get listed, you kill them, you get 20k, and the chance to hack their belt, as well as FL Bonuses for their Minus level to your Faction.
They will be permanently hunted, but their fun will be in being able to kill anyone.
That way the CityAdmin with their Copbot Runner armour finally have a job, and can patrol the Wastelands!
The other Group will be the Nomads, and these Runners simply aren't interested in the rat-race anymore. They are Neutral to everyone.
These people cannot enter Neocron or Dome of York, but have full access to the secondary bases, Military Base, TechHaven and TG Canyon. These are considered the Traders of the world, and will be treated as such. To kill these people, you recieve no bonuses, no benefits, nothing. You will however, have their deaths added to your Faction Reputation, and this will work towards you being booted out of your Faction. Your Faction doesn't appreciate you killing harmless Traders. (Unless of course you're an Outlaw)
If the Nomad Runner tries to kill however, he'll find himself kicked out of the Nomads in short order. They don't want their harmless reputation ruined.
Then it's only the Outlaws, or whatever Faction they have FL with and can join.
I think... I think that's everything......
It seems complicated on paper, but this is more or less ideal, and gives everyone the chance to do what they want.
*Breathes deeply*
Richard Blade
13-06-04, 04:01
Maloch, that's pretty interesting.
I've been working an LE's droner for a couple days. He has taken hits to soul light and sympathy for using AoE in the wrong spots. (one time, a nib was killed by a PK'r. That pissed me off more than when another nib got killed by a mob. As the first guy would have survived all the attacks of the mobs, but he didn't stand a chance against the PK'r.)
So, my point being that KK really needs to fix the AoE drone bugs. Otherwise, there will be a lot of droners kicked from all their factions.
I also think they introduced some more drone damage bugs this last patch. My droner took a sl and symp hit even though he wasn't using any AoE drones. None. I haven't been able to reproduce it, so, no sense in sending it in.
At any rate, I like your suggestions.
tomparadox
13-06-04, 04:35
Factionless should be a bannable offense until / if they add a “murderers faction”. Which I don’t agree with. why thats stupid O_o, Maby some people dont like haveing a faction? i personaly dont like being in a faction, its anoying. make it a bit more harsh though if you are no faction, like your hated by all , you have no allys, or no nuturals, all red, because if your factionless IMO it meens your whanted, no faction whants you...
and another reason is, it shouldent be bannable because you can get it on accident, i loged on one day and was faction less, i was on an alt, left a clan, and became faction less, if you get low symp in your faction, you become factionless... its to easy to do for it to be bannable...
edit: also, what if some dude thats allyed to you, say your CA, and some BT is talking trash about you/ saying your a nOOb and crap, and you dont like it. if what some of the sugestion you say come true, you wouldent be able to do anything about it...
Richard Blade
13-06-04, 05:16
why thats stupid O_o, Maby some people dont like haveing a faction? i personaly dont like being in a faction, its anoying. make it a bit more harsh though if you are no faction, like your hated by all , you have no allys, or no nuturals, all red, because if your factionless IMO it meens your whanted, no faction whants you...
and another reason is, it shouldent be bannable because you can get it on accident, i loged on one day and was faction less, i was on an alt, left a clan, and became faction less, if you get low symp in your faction, you become factionless... its to easy to do for it to be bannable...
edit: also, what if some dude thats allyed to you, say your CA, and some BT is talking trash about you/ saying your a nOOb and crap, and you dont like it. if what some of the sugestion you say come true, you wouldent be able to do anything about it...
Some people might not like having a faction. Ok. Maybe something can be worked out for DoY, but right now, it's being used to exploit certain traits in the faction and soul light system. It's wrong. Odin or Nid said that factionless people should report to a GM and have it fixed. It's a bug, not a "cool feature". It's been around long enough for people to know that they should have it fixed. That's why it should be a bannable offense. Basically, if it "just happened" then they should get it fixed. But, if a guy decides to go taunt several of his allies to attack him, and then lets them kill him, just so he can drive their symps down..... grrr. That's the guy to ban, not someone that just had it happen.
I would really love to be able to kill who I want with out losing soul light but the idea often gets put down alot but why wouldn't there be real murders?
I say we should scrap the mad all item drop when your at -32 soul light and just have them on the ncpd list and there not allowed in the city . People keep flaming pkers but some people want to play the game this way and should be able to hell If I could I would kill every one I see apart from my own faction
Edit
I also like these ideas of a faction that does that with out clans and can't hold outposts i'd be happy with that I'm not intrested in outposts I just like to find people to fight really
Yes they should definately end the drop 6 items rule for neg soullight. It's tremendously biased against the tanks with their AOE at op fights. I can personally name about 3 tanks that have lost their entire kits from accidently GRing into town after an op fight where some stupid vendors got killed by an errant Malediction or Doombeamer shot.
The old KK copout of "well you shouldn't kill vendors it's RP" doesnt cut it and never did. If KK hasn't figured out yet that it costs them customers then they probably never will.
Murderer faction = no clan, no outpost, no safety.
Also being in that faction doesn't give you any safe slot either, nothing that normal law abiding citizens of Neocron gets passe on to you and those in that faction, you get increased costs on GR's, your wanted, you need to keep moving as players will be able to track your last known location on the city com and hunt you for rewards.
About the neg SL thing, -32 and losing all that items is stupid, its happened to me before and its not nice, and i know countless people who quit over it, i would say a little change, maybe still dropping a belt but lower the amount of items with no safe slot to 2, and put limits on where they can GR to, say no return to their Apt and inner city areas being closed off to a murderer. That way when someone has been a bad boy/girl, they are seen on teh city com and are not just afk in their apt's getting SL back, but they must work for it back and they are out there somewhere doing it.
This could be tied into the bad faction thing, but its a good way to sort out the SL system, we also need to see a lower hit when you kill someone than going from +50 SL to -8 in one kill
But lets not sidetrack, there needs to be a balance with killing a allied player, a system that can't be abused "players find out ways all the time" and some sort of way to return with very hard work to your faction.
So what is the "appropriate" way to handle an ally who is buffing and assisting an enemy of yours who happens to be an ally of them.
Basically, FA PPU + BD tank attacking TG...
FA PPU lose FS with FA, its simple as that, even if he isnt teamed then somehow it must register that the PPU buffed the BD guy which then killed you.
I have no idea on how to do that.
[edit] besides that FA ppu is a cock, exactly the type of person im talking about.
tomparadox
13-06-04, 09:33
Some people might not like having a faction. Ok. Maybe something can be worked out for DoY, but right now, it's being used to exploit certain traits in the faction and soul light system. It's wrong. Odin or Nid said that factionless people should report to a GM and have it fixed. It's a bug, not a "cool feature". It's been around long enough for people to know that they should have it fixed. That's why it should be a bannable offense. Basically, if it "just happened" then they should get it fixed. But, if a guy decides to go taunt several of his allies to attack him, and then lets them kill him, just so he can drive their symps down..... grrr. That's the guy to ban, not someone that just had it happen.
you have some good points, but what about DoY? some people whont go to DoY, i will, but some whont. IMO they should work something out now...
Maloch Octavia
13-06-04, 12:48
My system would be soooooo much easier........... :)
Shadow Dancer
13-06-04, 19:48
Murderer faction = no clan, no outpost, no safety.
Also being in that faction doesn't give you any safe slot either, nothing that normal law abiding citizens of Neocron gets passe on to you and those in that faction, you get increased costs on GR's, your wanted,
This is the only part that makes little sense, no offense.
I don't consider TG or BD to be normal law abiding citizens of NC. Yet they keep safeslots........
trigger hurt
13-06-04, 20:21
However the last post turned out...I'll make my one comment here and that's that.
If you want harsher penalties for killing allies, then I want the following.
1- No Penalty for killing Twilight Gaurdian. They are Terrorists in the eyes of the city factions (except pp) and killing them should not be penalized...doesn't matter where you kill them. If they die, you dont lose any sympathy, except maybe with TG and TG allies, but you lose no soul light (why should city admin care if you off'd a terrorist) and maybe you get some cash. Kill enough TG, maybe you get some type of reward or faction medal.
2- City Mercs can kill anyone and have no penalties. Now, they have to accept a contract on the person/person's that they want to attack to keep from losing massive amounts of faction sympathy, but once a contract has been signed and paid for, the target is fair game until they are killed. Second part of this is Mercs are not allowed to hold outposts. They are mercenaries...why do they need to hold outposts? Their weapons are supplied to them by Tangent. Their Transportation is given to them by NeXT...What else do they need an op for?
3- Black Dragon/Tsunami/Crahn are the back-alley scum of Neocron. City Admin doesnt care if you kill a BD/TS/CS runner, so if you kill one...no penalty to you, however, with these additions:
- If a BD/TS or CS runner attacks you and wins, they receive a severe loss of faction sympathy if you were allied to their faction.
- If a BD/TS or CS runner attacks you and win, they receive a substantial increase of faction sympathy if you were hostile/neutral.
- If you attack a BD/TS or CS runner and win, you receive a severe loss of faction sympathy.
- If you attack a BD/TS or CS runner and lose, they receive no penalty.
For the above, reverse the scenarios to match up. Basically, if you attack an allied/neutral first, huge penalty. If you are attacked first and lose, they get the penalty. vice versa, etc etc.
As for the city factions, they really don't kill each other all that often. I see biotech and tt hanging out together all the time.
trigger hurt
13-06-04, 20:55
Lemon, I don't think the threadstarter is referring to that. I think they just mean totally unprovoked hostility from an allied runner whom they don't know or haven't wronged. I don't think they are referring to the situations where X runners hates and knows Y, and kills him no matter what.
At least I don't think they are. Some players DO go around killing allied players for reasons other than the one you stated.
But that's not a stipulation they are placing on this Shadow. Sure there are some people playing who will kill anyone, anywhere, so long as they get to kill them...whatever and that's who is being addressed here. But if you make the changes that some of these people think are great ideas...it only makes things worse. Because now, I cannot defend myself against these people or it will go into the "factions naughty book" and eventually, I'll be kicked out...for defending myself.
This would all be solved by defining who is the aggressor and who is the victim...i doubt kk can handle that though as they have enough to do already.
Fact is, without turning this game to an online version of chutes and ladders, there isnt a good fix that is easily doable. All of the suggestions here reak of "I got shot by that meanie biotech guy I want him kicked from his faction". There's bias on both sides and the ideas and comments are being horribly skewed.
ok lets start fresh, leave the system as it stands right now, but give a faction council the ability to kick someone from their faction.
Also with DOY coming up, KK should start very soon the story line of making certain factions at least neutral to eachother if they are gonna be on the same side, we got crahn and FA at war and we got BD and TG at war, plus D and TS and more TS at war with Crahn, these lot should at least made neutral to eachother for now.
Also the Pro city side should goto hostile or neutral, those that are neutral right now should goto hostile and allied should go neutral, like CM and FA need to move to hostile, and TT and TS hostile and so on.
But i know this would not stop allied killing, but at least it would give people more choice on enemies so they don't get bored and go about pking allied people.
I guess if no punishment comes into play for this, then we gotta put up with it and in the end fight back, which is really stupid but if thats what we need to do then so be it, it really screws up the gameplay and RP side of it and no one will be safe anymore, remember what MJS said once about DOY, Faction > Clan, but at this rate we are looking at who do you trust, only your clan at this time.
CLans should never have been put in, it should just have been factions you joined, and the ability to kick people from factions and for factions to declare a war on another for some sort of wrong done.
Bah
ok lets start fresh, leave the system as it stands right now, but give a faction council the ability to kick someone from their faction.
sry but giving people the power ti kick from faction is not good idea, all you need is a bunch of assholes on the council and they would be kicking people left right and centre just cos they can or cos they dont like someone.
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