View Full Version : What do you think guards should be?
awkward silence
03-06-04, 14:32
So... vote well my loves.
slaughteruall
03-06-04, 14:39
But guards should be weak. Lilke what was stated in other threads about this. maybe 70/70 or so. Should not be 120/120 unless they are few and far between. Should not be near zone lines (ie TH) we all know how this game likes to give long syncs.
Slaughter
edit: poll was posted.
Matthew.v.smith
03-06-04, 14:42
How many Organisations can train that many guards up to 120/120 in such a small time :p
I vote 70/70 because thats about as high as a player can get so why not guards?
afterall they are runners as well......well kinda but it's only fair :)
Matty.:angel:
P.S) Plus there should be less. See above :angel:
They should remain as they are, and react quicker to potential threats.
Faction HeadQuarters should be just that; a Faction's HeadQuarters. Not a holiday camp for their enemies (The Military Base immediatly springs to mind). Territorial serregation should be encouraged amongst the Factions.
Peace.
-Moscow
in my own oppinion i think they should be varied, such as 70/70 or perhaps even in the 60's in terms of rank at least outside the Faction HQs (and perhaps have less powerful weapons, Pistols, rifles) and just inside the doors but further into the building near important members of staff such as directors and such there should be and ranging up to 100/100 gaurds with cannons and stuff, but thats just how id like to see them.
I voted 70/70.
Edit for spelling.
as far as TH goes, its way overguarded. granted the first year of this game, TH was a mass murder stomping ground, thats not the case anymore. its just neocron without the safezones. probably the safest place to be. its stupid. i dont know why they had to over do it.
i can only assume that whoever made this happen, has FA characters or something. It surely points to that, but thats just my speculation.
Regardless of that, I GR'ed into TH to be instagibbed with a fully buffed PPU.
I can GR into MB with a paper thin resist APU with no problem. Same with TG. I can gr instantly into TG with my ppu and have a fighting chance to survive. Theres no need to have 6 turrets in one corner of a zone line. its rediculous. You can easily raid MB, TG Pepper park, why does TH have to be some safehaven that no one can get into. Hell you can even fight in the construction club and the next market.
its overkill and needs to be nerfed. there should be no reason that im dead as soon as i zone into TH with a fully buffed ppu with sanctums and heals going.
I tested this before KK implented the rule where heals wont work if you cast and zone. Its rediculous and over looked. MB got nerfed when someone spawned a bunch of extra turrets for its defense since the guards kepts falling into that shaft, why does TH have to have such overpowered defenses. its stupid.
one more thing, the guards were made 120 12o because people would camp the HQ and be able to outheal the damage and outright solo the guards, rendering a fac hq defense ineffective. They were too weak. I think 120 120 is just fine, TH needs to be balanced though, its overkill. The devs recognize this too, in a past post i remember one of the devs saying that runners would have a significant challenge (something to that effect) getting through this certain zone that has 6-8 turrets on the ground in one general area
the guards use rare weapon grade guns with the swirly removed.
I agree with Tratos, rank 60-70ish guards all around the headquarters with the stronger guards being near important people/places.
slaughteruall
03-06-04, 15:10
as far as TH goes, its way overguarded. granted the first year of this game, TH was a mass murder stomping ground, thats not the case anymore. its just neocron without the safezones. probably the safest place to be. its stupid. i dont know why they had to over do it.
i can only assume that whoever made this happen, has FA characters or something. It surely points to that, but thats just my speculation.
Regardless of that, I GR'ed into TH to be instagibbed with a fully buffed PPU.
I can GR into MB with a paper thin resist APU with no problem. Same with TG. I can gr instantly into TG with my ppu and have a fighting chance to survive. Theres no need to have 6 turrets in one corner of a zone line. its rediculous. You can easily raid MB, TG Pepper park, why does TH have to be some safehaven that no one can get into. Hell you can even fight in the construction club and the next market.
its overkill and needs to be nerfed. there should be no reason that im dead as soon as i zone into TH with a fully buffed ppu with sanctums and heals going.
I tested this before KK implented the rule where heals wont work if you cast and zone. Its rediculous and over looked. MB got nerfed when someone spawned a bunch of extra turrets for its defense since the guards kepts falling into that shaft, why does TH have to have such overpowered defenses. its stupid.
Agree 100% with what you said. I also remember having to go get your belt. :lol:
Slaughter
Yes, that would be much better. It's not fun to have 120/120 TG guards 5 sectors away from their HQ.
The ones outside should be set to KOS and they should do massive damage but the ones inside should be like a normal player and make them easyer to kill goddamn
They should run as fast as a player too
Shadow Dancer
03-06-04, 18:40
They should be the same as capped players. Even have ppu guards who buff/heal their friends as they attack you.
slaughteruall
03-06-04, 18:49
They should be the same as capped players. Even have ppu guards who buff/heal their friends as they attack you.
I disagree with this. Your going to make it where a PPU is required to have. I enjoy taking my tank out to PK at TG. I used to enjoy taking my PE out also (rerolled him to a barter).
slaughter
I say keep them at a lower level (70/70 is too low, my spy could solo that, 90/90, about the same as a DoY bot, sounds about right, maybe 80/80 but not lower), then give players the option to create their own defenses...
in a purely military area like the MB, there's no reason that they wouldn't have claymores at the entrances, machinegun nests in critical hallways, tripwires they can activate at a moments notice, ect. If you look the MB is already set up for a nested defense setup, look at all the doors compartmentalizing each 'shell'.
TH is the same, they have every reason to put up laser fences and turrets, but make the players pay for/maintain them, and set them up... that way you get an intelligent setup that is more stratigic. (IE, we can affor 10 turrets for sec-2, rather than putting them underneith the ramp, we will put 3 at each GR, and 4 at the entrances).
Shadow Dancer
03-06-04, 19:38
I disagree with this. Your going to make it where a PPU is required to have. I enjoy taking my tank out to PK at TG. I used to enjoy taking my PE out also (rerolled him to a barter).
slaughter
A ppu is already required for most HQ guards.
If you don't need a ppu for them, then they'll become a joke WITH a ppu backing you up. What then?
I want an option for "Make them insta-kill all enemies." Thanks.
slaughteruall
03-06-04, 21:20
A ppu is already required for most HQ guards.
If you don't need a ppu for them, then they'll become a joke WITH a ppu backing you up. What then?
I do see your point in this.
But i still dont want that i HAVE to have a PPU on my ass if i want to go to TH/MB/TG or what and kill people.
Slaughter
I do see your point in this.
But i still dont want that i HAVE to have a PPU on my ass if i want to go to TH/MB/TG or what and kill people.
Slaughter
This thread like so many others seems to be drifting to the real crux of the problem: the PPU totally unbalances the game, because of the huge yawning gap of difficulty between having a PPU with you and not having a PPU.
Guards, MC5, Caves, Fire Mobs, DoY bots, PvP, etc. All a completely different thing the moment you have a PPU with you. No wonder KK are struggling so hard to keep everything balanced; it's incredible they're succeeding as well as they are.
I'd still love to see a complete rethink of how monks work, from the ground up. Then maybe the guard problem and many others will take care of themselves.
Shadow Dancer
03-06-04, 22:05
I do see your point in this.
But i still dont want that i HAVE to have a PPU on my ass if i want to go to TH/MB/TG or what and kill people.
Slaughter
Are you saying that you can hunt in TH/MB now without a ppu? :eek:
This thread like so many others seems to be drifting to the real crux of the problem: the PPU totally unbalances the game, because of the huge yawning gap of difficulty between having a PPU with you and not having a PPU.
Guards, MC5, Caves, Fire Mobs, DoY bots, PvP, etc. All a completely different thing the moment you have a PPU with you. No wonder KK are struggling so hard to keep everything balanced; it's incredible they're succeeding as well as they are.
I'd still love to see a complete rethink of how monks work, from the ground up. Then maybe the guard problem and many others will take care of themselves.
Yup. I always see how most things end up to the PPU being the focal point.
Maloch Octavia
03-06-04, 23:58
No, keep them as they are.
Why?
Because people that want them lowered, want them lowered for Faction Loyalty purposes, in my opinion.
Make them lower so we can kill more!!
I'm sorry.... They're Guards.... Not targets for your own purposes.
By rights, you shoot one Guard, you should have the entire complex of Guards come storming at you, this doesn't happen, thus the Guards should until such time as that is possible, remain 120/120.
Oh, and TH has such a high Security presence, because Fallen Angels are neutral pacifists, and primarily Tradeskillers, and want to be left alone to tradeskill. They don't have an army, or a heavy armed presence, so they defend themselves in their home with security turrets.
Makes sense.
They should be either back to what they was or removed...they are just an exploit in every zone waiting for them oh so fucking lame exploiters to come exploit them. Remove guards.
Maloch : What a lot of shit you said. If i want sympathy or anyone else for that matter then i make a new character because the way kk have it is fucked up...and boring and slow and everything else that is negative. Theres no way id kill a lowered guard (still like 70/70) to get sympathy when there is much easier ways to go about it. The problem i see is people use the guards as cover for there scrawny asses...they dont actually do anything...they dont do what guards do, they warn you...warn you....warn you...walk away...wash rinse repeat, explain there presence?
It's impossible to raid HQs because the guards are so powerful. You cant roleplay anything. I cant attack tsunami, th, ca, mb, anything. Back in the day when guards could be killed and players made the rules and did the protecting... that was SO MUCH BETTER. I'd wait another two months on DoY if guards went back to 60/60 and cops could be killed by runners again. (Dont let them give any xp)
Couldn't finish the two TH raids I did with GMs and a FC. Not even carebears or tsunami like the tsunami guards. More noobs are killed by the storm bots at Neocrons exit than anything else. You cant pvp there what so ever. Todays event was runied because the storm bots are IMPOSSIBLE to fight. I liked it when everyone called on faction chat "Our HQ is under attack!" The guards gave them something to shoot at until the players arived.
NERF THE FREAKING GUARDS
80/80, so the they are in the same field as a Warbot; dangerous if you are not careful, but no way impossible. Though I agree they should be faster to react to threats, the are a bit of a joke right now. With enough run speed, you can get to any area you want.
They should remain as they are, and react quicker to potential threats.
Faction HeadQuarters should be just that; a Faction's HeadQuarters. Not a holiday camp for their enemies (The Military Base immediatly springs to mind). Territorial serregation should be encouraged amongst the Factions.
Peace.
-Moscow
And I think we shouldnt listen to the opinion of someone whos been around a while but is too afraid to say who they are.
Fantion HQs are just faction hqs... guess what? gangs get wiped out by other gangs in real life, hell, other civilizations have been wiped out by other civs. I say, if FA or CM cant beat BD, then BD gets to occupy their HQ.... thats how things really work. If FA/CM/TG dont like it, why not train, recruit, and rally against BD to push them out?
I vote get rid of guards, if not, give them a MAX rank of 70/70.... a guard should be weaker then a capped player who devotes their life to combat.
guards could be 70/70 if their AI was a little better and movement a little faster. As for now they are standing turrets, with rof around one hit every 5 seconds and speed of a mechturtle (not mentioning they are stumbling constantly and moving rather randomly).
If guards could get a little better AI then sure. But they arent very effective in combat, it's obvious i think. Thus they need to have a little more firepower and hp than normal players to compensate this.
But i agree, guards should be only a support in defense. But now they arent effective enough to play this role. 70/70 guards would be simply ignored by attackers as they couldnt do any real dmg to capped & buffed players (due to their AI and rof, not dmg they could potentially inflict).
Non Existent..
Pay Players to "guard"
Even the copbot/storm roles should be down to players :D
And I think we shouldnt listen to the opinion of someone whos been around a while but is too afraid to say who they are.
If you know me, you know me. If you don't, you don't.
I'm not one who relies on an over-inflated sense of self-worth and ego to get my point across. A reputation, if any, means little to me when I'm dealing with someone.
Fantion HQs are just faction hqs... guess what? gangs get wiped out by other gangs in real life, hell, other civilizations have been wiped out by other civs. I say, if FA or CM cant beat BD, then BD gets to occupy their HQ.... thats how things really work. If FA/CM/TG dont like it, why not train, recruit, and rally against BD to push them out?
If you're going to use "real life" in this, then go all the way, please:
In "real life" a fully stocked, well-equipped Military Base like the one in Neocron wouldn't let any known murderers or enemies get within ten feet; let alone allowing them to run amok INSIDE the walls of their base.
In "real life" a Military Base's personnel would be better equipped, better trained and better funded than a group of street thugs.
In "real life" a Military Base would have hi-tech weaponry, munitions and vehicles to dispose of any dissidents. A single person, even a group of them come to think of it, would be wiped out in no time flat.
In "real life" the Black Dragon probably WOULD have been destroyed by now. Actions such as yours would have easily justified the use of over excessive force by both the CityAdmin and CityMercs to flatten the Black Dragon's operation.
In "real life" chances are people like yourself would've been involved in an "accident" to preserve the safety and power of a faction.
In "real life" arbitary numbers on a screen don't determine how fast you run, how skilled you are nor how many bullets it takes to drop you.
I could go on forever, but all it would amount to is your analogy being flawed beyond all belief.
I vote get rid of guards, if not, give them a MAX rank of 70/70.... a guard should be weaker then a capped player who devotes their life to combat.
Why? How do you know the guards haven't been trained, augmented and altered in a way that perfects their combat ability? A "capped player" relies on killing mutants and over-grown bugs for their fighting experience; faction guards, most of them at least, would go under a professional, gruelling program so they would perform to the best of their abilities.
Peace.
-Moscow
Shadow Dancer
05-06-04, 00:51
If you're going to use "real life" in this, then go all the way, please:
In "real life" a fully stocked, well-equipped Military Base like the one in Neocron wouldn't let any known murderers or enemies get within ten feet; let alone allowing them to run amok INSIDE the walls of their base.
In "real life" a Military Base's personnel would be better equipped, better trained and better funded than a group of street thugs.
In "real life" a Military Base would have hi-tech weaponry, munitions and vehicles to dispose of any dissidents. A single person, even a group of them come to think of it, would be wiped out in no time flat.
In "real life" the Black Dragon probably WOULD have been destroyed by now. Actions such as yours would have easily justified the use of over excessive force by both the CityAdmin and CityMercs to flatten the Black Dragon's operation.
In "real life" chances are people like yourself would've been involved in an "accident" to preserve the safety and power of a faction.
In "real life" arbitary numbers on a screen don't determine how fast you run, how skilled you are nor how many bullets it takes to drop you.
Excellent points Moscow.
One more. In real life it's not so easy to be brave and assault an entire base packed with professional soldiers, because you know if you die you can just reappear at your apartment and be ready to fight in 10 minutes again.
slaughteruall
05-06-04, 01:32
If you know me, you know me. If you don't, you don't.
I'm not one who relies on an over-inflated sense of self-worth and ego to get my point across. A reputation, if any, means little to me when I'm dealing with someone.
If you're going to use "real life" in this, then go all the way, please:
In "real life" a fully stocked, well-equipped Military Base like the one in Neocron wouldn't let any known murderers or enemies get within ten feet; let alone allowing them to run amok INSIDE the walls of their base.
In "real life" a Military Base's personnel would be better equipped, better trained and better funded than a group of street thugs.
In "real life" a Military Base would have hi-tech weaponry, munitions and vehicles to dispose of any dissidents. A single person, even a group of them come to think of it, would be wiped out in no time flat.
In "real life" the Black Dragon probably WOULD have been destroyed by now. Actions such as yours would have easily justified the use of over excessive force by both the CityAdmin and CityMercs to flatten the Black Dragon's operation.
In "real life" chances are people like yourself would've been involved in an "accident" to preserve the safety and power of a faction.
In "real life" arbitary numbers on a screen don't determine how fast you run, how skilled you are nor how many bullets it takes to drop you.
I could go on forever, but all it would amount to is your analogy being flawed beyond all belief.
Why? How do you know the guards haven't been trained, augmented and altered in a way that perfects their combat ability? A "capped player" relies on killing mutants and over-grown bugs for their fighting experience; faction guards, most of them at least, would go under a professional, gruelling program so they would perform to the best of their abilities.
Peace.
-Moscow
And let me finish for you.
In "real life" non military personnel can not enter a military base unless there escorted by a military member. That way if that civilian does anything wrong the person who is escorting him is also punished. Do you see any of that going on in NC? I didn't think so so why would we see most of your stuff in there. So as you see your analogy is flawed.
Slaughter
Liebestoter
05-06-04, 01:37
I'd like to see an option for 'attacks enemies instantly' and 'attacks anyone who shoots faction members instantly'. Thanks.
slaughteruall
05-06-04, 01:39
I'd like to see an option for 'attacks enemies instantly' and 'attacks anyone who shoots faction members instantly'. Thanks.
Take a FA hostile person into TH. Watch how fast they shoot you.
tomparadox
05-06-04, 01:44
no dont nerf them! they are fine, if you nerf them, then they will be exploit haven with people jest killing them over and over for symp and shit.
and besides, why would a faction I.E. MB hire a bunch of panzys to work for them as guards? in RL do people hire a bunch of panzys? do they hire all the week people to defend HQs and pases?
and about TH, Leav it be, ffs its tradeskillers mostly, and the reason all the damn turrents are there now is because people used to come in and raid TH like every 5 - 10 minets.
Liebestoter
05-06-04, 01:45
Take a person hostile to CM to MB. Watch how fast they don't shoot you.
tomparadox
05-06-04, 01:47
Take a person hostile to CM to MB. Watch how fast they don't shoot you.
yea i agree...
if you nerf the guards to 100/100 MINIMUM then make there AI better cus right now they are stupid as hell... and MB guards should shoot the fastist considering its a MILITARY BASE, i meen in RL woul guards let an enamy stole into a MB?
Liebestoter
05-06-04, 01:48
No, they fucking wouldn't. They'd be dead about fifteen times over before even getting with in a mile and a half of the place.
tomparadox
05-06-04, 01:53
No, they fucking wouldn't. They'd be dead about fifteen times over before even getting with in a mile and a half of the place.
exactly.
and TH, comeon what would you expect? they are N to all but 2 factions, and they are called Tech Havent? comeon they are tech freeks dont you think theyd use there brains? espeshaly when it comes to turrents and such to save there ass? you think they would on purpusly make a shitload of useless turrents that are low ranking and week? o_O
slaughteruall
05-06-04, 01:54
Take a person hostile to CM to MB. Watch how fast they don't shoot you.
i was commenting on your insta kill that you wanted on all HQ guards. As has already been stated guards need to agro fasterr in someplaces. And some places they agro way to fast.
Slaughter
edit: @tomparadox & Liebestoter you two chuckle heads need to reread this thread you seem to have missed alot of what people have said. Either that or your minds are only focusing on certain sides of things.
If some faction HQ's are raidable they all need to be. Some are some aren't. That is mainly what this thread is about. To high of ranked guards/ to many/ to stupid.
Liebestoter
05-06-04, 01:59
I don't want instakill. lol.
And why shouldn't they KOS fast? You're ENEMIES. Not slight differences, not estranged friends or something, ENEMIES. Enemies KILL each other.
tomparadox
05-06-04, 02:00
i was commenting on your insta kill that you wanted on all HQ guards. As has already been stated guards need to agro fasterr in someplaces. And some places they agro way to fast.
Slaughter
sometimes, but remove the guards to like 70/70 o_O and id be screwed atm, atm they are stupid as hell, TG guards couldent hit a pile of shit if they were standing 1 foot away from it with that rifle, seriosly iv stood there on a ppu and only 1 hit outa his hole clip hit me from like 1 meter away o_O and insted of being agressiv and comeing at you, any guard will back off and start to go around a corner were he cant hit you. if you run around the corner all the guard dose is backup. when your low health you go and stand were he cant hit you, dose he follow you? yes, dose he start to follow you imideatly? no, he backsup and gos aroud a corner or something untill your healed O_o. iv seen a guard follow someoen about 1 outa 50 times and actuly kill them, unless the persons about stupid and stands in the open...
slaughteruall
05-06-04, 02:01
oops insta agro not instakill. Let my mind get away from me.
tomparadox
05-06-04, 02:12
lol :p but seriosly if your going to make them 100/100 or lower make them smarter so they know how to fight better... eather that or jest make all there shirts/armor say " Im with stupid, kill me please"
And let me finish for you.
In "real life" non military personnel can not enter a military base unless there escorted by a military member. That way if that civilian does anything wrong the person who is escorting him is also punished. Do you see any of that going on in NC? I didn't think so so why would we see most of your stuff in there. So as you see your analogy is flawed.
Slaughter
Runners aren't considered civilians; therefore it's quite likely they have the clearance to enter the Military Base. But even so, my points still stand; it's clear the CityMercs have the equipment and expertise to push back (Or isolate) threats and crush them. I just found it absurd that they were being compared to some street thugs.
But I have to ask one thing....did you deliberately (But indirectly) agree with my post here? Or was it just a fluke? If my analogy is flawed, applying "real life" to Neocron, then aren't you also saying that Vett's analogy is flawed?
I'm just curious; not being hostile.
Peace.
-Moscow
slaughteruall
05-06-04, 02:44
Runners aren't considered civilians; therefore it's quite likely they have the clearance to enter the Military Base. But even so, my points still stand; it's clear the CityMercs have the equipment and expertise to push back (Or isolate) threats and crush them. I just found it absurd that they were being compared to some street thugs.
But I have to ask one thing....did you deliberately (But indirectly) agree with my post here? Or was it just a fluke? If my analogy is flawed, applying "real life" to Neocron, then aren't you also saying that Vett's analogy is flawed?
I'm just curious; not being hostile.
Peace.
-Moscow
Depends how you want to look at it really. Runners could be considered "races(non clanned)" or "gangs(clans)" or even "military groups (factions). My views are different then yours. Which is why they are mine. :p
I agree more with vets post. I personnaly dont like comparing games to real life. But the gangs analogy was pretty good at least IHMO.
Also about clearance. Your clearance most of the times dont mean shit. There is also a thing called "Need to know" if you dont have a need to know it dont matter what clearance you have.
Slaughter
Shadow Dancer
05-06-04, 02:47
But the gangs analogy was pretty good at least IHMO.
Meh, I don't know. Maybe if he was talking about tsunami and black dragon only. But a gang vs a military base?
Give me a break. o_O
slaughteruall
05-06-04, 02:49
Meh, I don't know. Maybe if he was talking about tsunami and black dragon only. But a gang vs a military base?
Give me a break. o_O
Take things with a grain of salt. Dont read to much into gangs vs military. Just get the basic idea of what he was talking about and thing of it how ever you like. As long as you dont change the views of the post it might make better since.
Slaughter
Shadow Dancer
05-06-04, 02:52
o_O
Either way it doesn't make much sense IMO. I rarely ever get convinced when people start bringing real life analogies into it. I see it more from a game balance pov.
Leave them as they are, but lessen the numbers, and remove some of the guards that are up to 5 sectors away from their HQ. There is no need to have TG guards at CRP and its surrounding zones. MB could stand to lose a few but no too many since they are a bit stupid, and it is a military base after all. TH guard numbers need severely reduced. Sure HQ's should be hard to raid since they are the heart of the faction, but not totally impossible.
IMO faction raids should be possible in all HQs but be very hard. You should need at least 4 or 5 runners to pull it off. I mean what faction would really let 1 solo runner stroll in and start killing people? It shouldnt be able to happen that way. And saying that runners should be defending their HQ is a pile of crap. The servers dont have the numbers to make it viable, and not every faction is full of great PvPers. How many BD runners come to their HQ to defend when TS raids it? (and I've been to a few raids and not once saw a BD runner).
Leave them as they are rank wise to keep it a challenge, but some need removed to make it possible.
Guards should be much stronger than players. Players are not soliders. They are "runners". Their allegiance is ... temporary at best.
90/90s
donīt forget.. the HQs are crawling with them..
Lets clear some stuff up here... the city mercs are not a big, goverment funded standing army. They are a bunch of regular soldiers who went off on there own to be mercs, and found an old abandoned base. Nobody ever said there were tons of them. Lets look at it like this... in terms of the BD on saturn, we are not a bunch of thugs, we are a group of players who dedicate our lives to be the best fighters possible... we train constantly and are constatly out fighting and killing people... CONSTANTLY. I know I, and many other BD are always trying to improve thier setups and skills.
Whos to say CM's would have better weapons and training? again they arent a goverment funded army, they get paid to do mercenary work... BD have much more hostiles and are fighting much more, why couldnt they be stronger?
On the guard aspect, the best fighters are NOT guards... its not a high position. The best fighters are out fighting, not standing around scratching thier asses... an example I can give, is, say when I went to rome years back, and there were military guards in the airport.... they all looked very bored and had what I think were M3 "Greese Guns" smgs....an old weapon. you really dont think an elite team of well trained fighters couldnt kill them? theres guards werent the italian special forces, they wee regular military. Again a real life analogy but it would be the same at MB... the best fighters would be out on assignment, not sitting at MB. A player should be stronger then guards.
Lets clear some stuff up here... the city mercs are not a big, goverment funded standing army. They are a bunch of regular soldiers who went off on there own to be mercs, and found an old abandoned base. Nobody ever said there were tons of them. Lets look at it like this... in terms of the BD on saturn, we are not a bunch of thugs, we are a group of players who dedicate our lives to be the best fighters possible... we train constantly and are constatly out fighting and killing people... CONSTANTLY. I know I, and many other BD are always trying to improve thier setups and skills.
Technically, the CityMercs are Government funded; the CityAdministration pays them silly amounts of money for operations against the Twilight Guardian and other enemies. Plus, guards with access to Gatlin Guns, Rhino Tanks, missile batteries, cruise missiles and powered armour doesn't really imply "old soldier gone Merc" as far as I'm concerned.
Secondly, as I've already pointed out; arbitary stat numbers on a screen wouldn't determine skill, or anything those lines, in "real life". Likewise, most of the "fighting and killing people" I've witnessed by members of Black Dragon, as well as other anti-city factions, could hardly be considered worthwhile or effective training.
Most, well....ALL come to think of it, Runners built their combat experience on a diet of mutants, bugs and outdated mechs. The soldiers of the Military Base have "true" Military experience, frequently undergo training to keep them in tip-top shape and use Mercenary duties to put their skills to good use.
Whos to say CM's would have better weapons and training? again they arent a goverment funded army, they get paid to do mercenary work... BD have much more hostiles and are fighting much more, why couldnt they be stronger?
See above for the first part.
As for the second...."more enemies != more combat experience". Enemies don't immediatly equate to all out war; a lot of the hostilities between Black Dragon are due to intimidation, ethics and "protection". Not outright violence and murder.
On the guard aspect, the best fighters are NOT guards... its not a high position. The best fighters are out fighting, not standing around scratching thier asses... an example I can give, is, say when I went to rome years back, and there were military guards in the airport.... they all looked very bored and had what I think were M3 "Greese Guns" smgs....an old weapon. you really dont think an elite team of well trained fighters couldnt kill them? theres guards werent the italian special forces, they wee regular military. Again a real life analogy but it would be the same at MB... the best fighters would be out on assignment, not sitting at MB. A player should be stronger then guards.
So because they were bored, you immediatly think they had little skill? I challenge you to sit around doing nothing and still look interested in what you're doing. Also, the Military Base guards are equipped with Gatlin Guns, not Grease Guns. Significant difference in fire-power there.
Likewise, why would the "best fighters" always be out fighting? Homeland defense is an important part of warfare too. I don't ever recall anti-city Runners defending their HeadQuarters when they're attacked, instead thy rely on the NPC guards....something you detest.
Why should a player be stronger than guards, Vett? Beyond "because they should" you seem to have very few arguments to back up your statement.
So far, it just appears to me that you want an even easier time of "raiding" places where people go to level, rather than look for proper Player vs Player combat.
Peace.
-Moscow
Shadow Dancer
05-06-04, 14:21
I can buy that they would have better weaponry due to more funding, or perhaps access to the top weapons, but I just don't buy tha they are so many more times powerful than your avg capped runner. They should be like capped runners. And their should be alot of them. Maybe with slightly more powerful weaponry. The problem is if their like capped runners(which means they can still do some heavy damage to you) they become a cakewalk if you have a ppu with you.
I can buy that they would have better weaponry due to more funding, or perhaps access to the top weapons, but I just don't buy tha they are so many more times powerful than your avg capped runner. They should be like capped runners. And their should be alot of them. Maybe with slightly more powerful weaponry. The problem is if their like capped runners(which means they can still do some heavy damage to you) they become a cakewalk if you have a ppu with you.
Here is the crux of the problem; I could go on for days and days and days and days and days justifying every single inch of their power, but from a practical viewpoint the guards need to stay as they are.
Until Reakktor are able to make them a challenge (Challenge, not insanely difficult) for both people with and without a PPU, I see little point in changing them. The system is either too easy or too hard; either way I can't see a satisfactory fix coming any time soon.
Peace.
-Moscow
All i can say is all the ppl that voted KEEP em as they are are either
Fa carebears
TS ppl who enjjoy ruining ppls fun by punching them
FA carebears
OR CM.
No other factions give as hit as no goes n e where near them.
NERF em, it jsut ruin PP and rading. TH is POINTLESS to raid ffs.
And why are the guards super human anyway? Don't humans cap at 70ish?
All i can say is all the ppl that voted KEEP em as they are are either
Fa carebears
TS ppl who enjjoy ruining ppls fun by punching them
FA carebears
OR CM.
No other factions give as hit as no goes n e where near them.
NERF em, it jsut ruin PP and rading. TH is POINTLESS to raid ffs.
And why are the guards super human anyway? Don't humans cap at 70ish?
So easy to turn that drivel around - I bet most people who want them nerfed don't have to worry about being PKed while in their own HQs while they tradeskill.
slaughteruall
05-06-04, 23:10
So easy to turn that drivel around - I bet most people who want them nerfed don't have to worry about being PKed while in their own HQs while they tradeskill.
FFS find somewhere else to tradeskill. It's not hard. How many crytons are on each server?
Slaughter
FFS find somewhere else to tradeskill. It's not hard. How many crytons are on each server?
Slaughter
FFS find somewhere else to PK noobs, how many CM HQs are there on each server?
FFS find somewhere else to PK noobs, how many CM HQs are there on each server?
Tradeskill in an OP wher eur better at it
Tradeskill in a crytons
tradeskill in a fucking ditch for all i care
90% of the ppl on a server are there for PVP ... and who the fuck tradeskills in the pp1/p3 entrance n e way.
I have a char whcih is designated to tradeskilling so dont say i do my own share.. i jsut do it in a sensible place.
birkoff said that perfectly... trade skill in your damn apt if you want to be safe.. I think we should even be able to break into your apt, kill you, and then re paint the room in your blood, unfortunetly that will never happen.
So at least let us raid the damn HQs... I just cant understand how you dont think its fair that players should defend against players... if FA/TG/CM dont want to get raided, level, train, get good and beat back the invaders... if you cant beat them, die...
Sorry moscow but I think your reasoning is BS... a guards job is to be a guard, its his job... my chars fighting is what he is driven to do, not his job. Therefore he would accel at it more. sure I killed some bugs and cyclops but ive killed 1000's of players too. The stuff abaout they get super implants is BS too... neocron isnt the United states with a super powerful military and inteligence agentcy and all that, everyones struggling for survival, if biotech makes the implant or tangent makes the gun, a rich BD WILL be able to get it too.
So at least let us raid the damn HQs... I just cant understand how you dont think its fair that players should defend against players... if FA/TG/CM dont want to get raided, level, train, get good and beat back the invaders... if you cant beat them, die...
Because most "raids" are just a single person with a PPU ganking lower-ranked players, then running at the first sign of real defense? I, personally, don't think anyone could be bothered just to show up somewhere only to find the so-called "raider" has already fled the scene.
Also, why aren't you applying your "if you can't beat them, die" motto to the NPC guards? Whatever happened to "adapt or die"?
Sorry moscow but I think your reasoning is BS... a guards job is to be a guard, its his job... my chars fighting is what he is driven to do, not his job. Therefore he would accel at it more. sure I killed some bugs and cyclops but ive killed 1000's of players too. The stuff abaout they get super implants is BS too... neocron isnt the United states with a super powerful military and inteligence agentcy and all that, everyones struggling for survival, if biotech makes the implant or tangent makes the gun, a rich BD WILL be able to get it too.
Uh, no.
If someone's job is to guard, then that's what they're going to be driven to do when trouble arises. Being an offensive-minded person doesn't immediatly make you stronger than the person defending; and killing "thousands of players" (Which I think is just your ego talking, again) came after all that mutant and bug killing, so the benefit was less (And let's face it, from what I've seen and heard about you, it's likely no more than a quarter of those "kills" were someone of a similar rank).
Ah, but the city of Neocron DOES have a super powerful intelligence and military agencies. Privately funded projects by BioTech and Tangent would be monitored by Reza, who is an incredibly paranoid man, and safeguards would be put in place to make damn sure a street thug couldn't get ahold of the technology.
Peace.
-Moscow
Liebestoter
06-06-04, 00:37
Erm, a guard's job is to secure whatever area he surveys. Secure = no fighting, therefore it'd make perfect sense for a guard to light your ass up for fighting in front of him. I fail to see how you can find any error in Moscow's reasoning.
50% of being part of a faction in my opinion is the help and defend the FACTIONS HQ, if a faction doesn't have enough ppl to do this isn't not its enemies fault. Nothing was lsot when guards didnt do shit, in fact a lot of ppl had a lot more fun. If you want ur faction HQ secure then do it yourself its why you play the game isn't it. Why should guards that are 20 times harder than the average player be doing it for you?
And i totally agree a guard is ther to guard not to create hostility Guards are ther eto GUARD ok but they are also there to keep the peace. If a player starts on a Person in the faction/friends or maybe if they draw a weapon like cop bots they should attack back. But not until they mak a hostile activity IMO.
On a second note I've never in my life seen a CM tradeskilling in MB :), if they are they are asking for trouble IMO also (i play pluto and saturn mainly)
guards are NOT supposed to be fucking killing machines, they are supposed to be able to shoot a gun, and be a meat sheild for what they protect, thats IT. I've never played a game where guards are like the fucking terminator, except this one :wtf:
slaughteruall
06-06-04, 01:30
Tradeskill in an OP wher eur better at it
Tradeskill in a crytons
tradeskill in a fucking ditch for all i care
90% of the ppl on a server are there for PVP ... and who the fuck tradeskills in the pp1/p3 entrance n e way.
I have a char whcih is designated to tradeskilling so dont say i do my own share.. i jsut do it in a sensible place.
Couldn't of said it better myself. I have 1 pure tradeskiller and working on 2 more pure's.
Slaughter
Because most "raids" are just a single person with a PPU ganking lower-ranked players, then running at the first sign of real defense? I, personally, don't think anyone could be bothered just to show up somewhere only to find the so-called "raider" has already fled the scene.
Moscow
When I go into TG to do some killing I don't really give a shit who is there I kill anyone and as many as I can and if there low lvl then so be it there usally stood there calling me a dick or what ever. So I blow there brains out and if they come back out of there appy I do it again and again cos they and you just don't get it. I'm there to kill other players because thats what this game is about the shops are full of ammo weapons armor implants that make you a better killing machine . I don't run unless I really have too I don't really care about people DM'ing me saying I'm a pussy for running cos at the end of the day I'll find them alone and will give them a fair fight and then I'll be DMing them with "YOU SUCK"
PvP game nuff said
Edit: I never really come allong with a PPU and if the gaurds where not enough they will still bring there army of PPU's and APU's to kill me So do we really need guards if the defence is clearly there
ive thought about this idea before and came to the conclusion that gaurds have to be over powered and have mass body health, the reasoning for this is to stop people from aoe,ing the zone lines ,. if your notice there are gaurds at every zoneline that is confined to a small place , thus stoping people from fraggin u as u come into a new zone , ie pepperpark . the only solution to this, is to make all gaurds not attack or give warings" walk tward your saying im going frag your ass." unless you deal damage to them first , thus removeing all potential of exploits and problems with zone time. :angel:
Moscow
When I go into TG to do some killing I don't really give a shit who is there I kill anyone and as many as I can and if there low lvl then so be it there usally stood there calling me a dick or what ever. So I blow there brains out and if they come back out of there appy I do it again and again cos they and you just don't get it. I'm there to kill other players because thats what this game is about the shops are full of ammo weapons armor implants that make you a better killing machine . I don't run unless I really have too I don't really care about people DM'ing me saying I'm a pussy for running cos at the end of the day I'll find them alone and will give them a fair fight and then I'll be DMing them with "YOU SUCK"
PvP game nuff said
Edit: I never really come allong with a PPU and if the gaurds where not enough they will still bring there army of PPU's and APU's to kill me So do we really need guards if the defence is clearly there
I'll ignore the first part (It sounds like a guilty conscience speaking more than anything else), but will address the second:
This game isn't a PvP game, it's a MMORPG with PvP elements. Almost everything in the game relies upon, or directly influences, the Player Vs Enviroment aspects.
"Rare" weapon creation.
The levelling system.
Guns and ammo.
NPC interaction.
Credits.
And so forth.
If Neocron truly was a "PVP game" then why is the Player Vs Enviroment such a hefty aspect? You get ahead in Player Vs Player by taking part in Player Vs Enviroment. PVP would collapse without PVE content, while PVE content would get along just fine without PVP content.
Finally, if you are truly so amazing at PVP combat, why target areas where people level? Why brag so hard about your "skills"? If you really were a good PVPer, you wouldn't have to vent it everywhere.
Peace.
-Moscow
Moscow, you know nothing about pking, so stop commenting... heres how it usually works:
I'll raid MB alone. Why MB? where else am I going to find people? wastes are empty. So, ill kill a few low levels. 9/10 one of em is a cm alt. They will log their tank, run out, ill kill them. Then, he will call a ppu and a bunch of other people. I cant beat a ppu, 2 tans, 2 pes, and an apu, so I'll run away. Ill try to lead the fastest people away from the ppu, then pick them off.
Eventually, they wont leave the protection of their PPU. So, ill call for a ppu ofmy own. sometimes a few more people will come help me, sometimes not. This is not braging, this is FACT, the vast, vast majority of the time, we win with 2:1, 3:1 odds against us.
The CM then resort to running to the guards, running out, putting a parashock on us, running back to guards, and just basically guard humping.
I know your going to say "bragging not going to reposnd, blah blah balh" but its true, if you dont belive it, come watch some time.
Now, we are better fighters then the mercs... the guards should be removed, and we should be able to kill the players, because we are both the same level, they have MORE people, but we are better... we earned it.
If people dont like us killing their newbs at mb after killing the mercs, log your alts, help the mercs fight us...
and I would love, LOVE if BD had an HQ out in the waste lands and mercs/tg/fa would raid, just makes more pvp for me, and no, I wouldnt want guards, me and 1 ppu could stop a group of 6 mercs raiding, we have done it 100 times.
Tell me moscow, since your such an expert, if HQs were unraidable, where the hell would I go to get good pvp? I hate op wars, its mostly waiting for your team to group up, then when you attack the defenders turret spam and zone whore the UG, when your on defence, you wait 2 hours for attackers to come... zzzzzz... HQ riading is where the real fun is at.
Gotterdammerung
06-06-04, 04:06
so far this has been 5 pages of good posting, a few egos are starting to show though. Keep it clean and not personal, learn to use the edit function and if you feel the need to do so, take some issues to pm's.
Remember, it IS ok to disagree and not everyone is right all of the time.
100% agree with everything in that post. I wish that PPL would rade the CS HQ or maybe it was in a place where it was a bit more raidable.. or liekly for ppl to go. ITs moving to DOY in the future so maybe then it will get a bit better. When the population is up there is NO excuse to have stupidly overpowered guards IMO.
As for the reply to my tradekill comment.. thanks :P
I'll ignore the first part (It sounds like a guilty conscience speaking more than anything else), but will address the second:
How so?
This game isn't a PvP game, it's a MMORPG with PvP elements. Almost everything in the game relies upon, or directly influences, the Player Vs Enviroment aspects.
I have been in this game long enough to have explored the whole neocron world 20 times over the Enviroment gets a bit boring after a while now lets start killing people for fun.
PVE content would get along just fine without PVP content.
Yes but that does not mean the people who want to PvP should'nt there are people that enjoy getting there base raided and put up the fight and come on the game would not have survived this long without open PvP in it.
Finally, if you are truly so amazing at PVP combat, why target areas where people level? Why brag so hard about your "skills"? If you really were a good PVPer, you wouldn't have to vent it everywhere.
I don't call MB/TG/TH a lvling area and I'm not really braging about how good my skills are :rolleyes: I'm simply explaining why I don't think they need gaurds if they can defend for them selfs
Shadow Dancer
06-06-04, 05:54
If the guards are going to stay at their current strength, they should take an hour to respawn.
The gaurds should be funded by the faction run out of funds you get no gaurds simple if people manage to kill the gaurd its dead till the faction counseller or what ever replaces them.
Well that could create the potential for a lot more depth with the game, for instance the very hard missions that the city mercs get could be more based on doing things for other factions which in turn generates revenue for the faction aside from OPs and such which will contribute to how well outfitted the guards are.
I think the guards near the outer parts of factions (For instance, TG's guys in the wastes) should be weak. The guys near the center, ie. near TG HQ, should be harder, and inside (if it's ever re-opened) would be 120/120. It would make sense to have elite fighters / bodyguards near what matters, and send the one's that are green out front.
And yeah, guards taking a long time to respawn would then give justification for actually killing them, which would make it possible to 'attack' places and hold them for a period of time rather than just run past guards avoiding their 3 warnings.
All I'm seeing here is people who want to PK moaning that they can't. Not people who want to PvP; PvPers go hack ops.
I've been in the Mercs for ages, and it's always the same old thing:
A tank or APU comes along with a PPU rammed so far up their arse it's a wonder they can breath.
They go to the bunker and use their awesome PvP skills to kill some rank 30 levelers.
They go to just inside MB entrance where there's no guards and kill the noobs again when they head out.
A couple of my clan get wind of the PKers and go check it out; they have no PPU because Squirrel is offline and I'm out at Graves. They know they're going to die, but they go anyway - we're PvPers and consider it our job to defend MB from PKers.
They get owned; without a PPU there's no point fighting. Yay for KK.
By this time I've made it to my apartment, and a few more of us have grouped up. We head out, find the attackers, kill the tank/apu and the PPU runs away.
For the next 5 mins I get DMs telling me I'm a complete pussy for not bringing even numbers and daring to be a good PPU.
That's how it happens almost EVERY SINGLE TIME. The people who come to MB to fight are not hard done by PvPers being prevented from playing the game by a few guards; 90% of them are PKers, with no interest in a fair fight, less interest in one they might lose, and they moan endlessly if they die.
If you want to PvP I'm fine with that; I love PvP, it's the only thing keeping me in the game. But until you've spent 6 months having to drop everything to defend some lvl 30ers who can't defend themselves from some twats with huge egos and no talent please do kindly shut the flying fuck up about the guards being overpowered.
The guards are crap. Utterly, totally, inexcusably crap. They can't navigate corners. Their AI script has two lines. The first makes it walk in a straight line to where it wants to be so they get stuck in corners immediately. The second governs who they attack; generally no one, quite often allied runners, and when they do shoot they miss with most of their shots.
So you can't bring a two man attack team into MB and PK at whim. If I could care any less I fail to see how. Bring your entire clan, bring 20 people or 30, leave the nibs alone and kill a few high rank clanned runners. If you want to invade MB be my guest, but make it worth my while leaving my Graves team, running to the nearest GR, waiting for SI loss then FREing when I drop down the lift.
MB is a military complex full of highly trained war veterans. It makes absolutely no RP sense at all that a couple of PKers should be able to even get through the front door, let alone run around inside killing anything that moves (that doesn't have a PPU).
I challenge any of you "boohoo the guards are too hard" types to spend 6 months as a City Merc and defend your territory, then come back here and say the same thing.
End of rant.
Liebestoter
06-06-04, 10:59
What's even better is when people challenge you to defend MB and outnumber you 5 to 1, then scream "OWNED!1!eleven"
So MR Chumpy you saying that HQs need 120/120 Killin machines b/c ur faction can't protect your own HQ againsty ONE apu/ppu team? :s
So MR Chumpy you saying that HQs need 120/120 Killin machines b/c ur faction can't protect your own HQ againsty ONE apu/ppu team? :s
No I didn't say that at all. Try reading my post again.
steweygrrr
06-06-04, 12:24
All I'm seeing here is people who want to PK moaning that they can't. Not people who want to PvP; PvPers go hack ops.
I've been in the Mercs for ages, and it's always the same old thing:
A tank or APU comes along with a PPU rammed so far up their arse it's a wonder they can breath.
They go to the bunker and use their awesome PvP skills to kill some rank 30 levelers.
They go to just inside MB entrance where there's no guards and kill the noobs again when they head out.
A couple of my clan get wind of the PKers and go check it out; they have no PPU because Squirrel is offline and I'm out at Graves. They know they're going to die, but they go anyway - we're PvPers and consider it our job to defend MB from PKers.
They get owned; without a PPU there's no point fighting. Yay for KK.
By this time I've made it to my apartment, and a few more of us have grouped up. We head out, find the attackers, kill the tank/apu and the PPU runs away.
For the next 5 mins I get DMs telling me I'm a complete pussy for not bringing even numbers and daring to be a good PPU.
That's how it happens almost EVERY SINGLE TIME. The people who come to MB to fight are not hard done by PvPers being prevented from playing the game by a few guards; 90% of them are PKers, with no interest in a fair fight, less interest in one they might lose, and they moan endlessly if they die.
If you want to PvP I'm fine with that; I love PvP, it's the only thing keeping me in the game. But until you've spent 6 months having to drop everything to defend some lvl 30ers who can't defend themselves from some twats with huge egos and no talent please do kindly shut the flying fuck up about the guards being overpowered.
The guards are crap. Utterly, totally, inexcusably crap. They can't navigate corners. Their AI script has two lines. The first makes it walk in a straight line to where it wants to be so they get stuck in corners immediately. The second governs who they attack; generally no one, quite often allied runners, and when they do shoot they miss with most of their shots.
So you can't bring a two man attack team into MB and PK at whim. If I could care any less I fail to see how. Bring your entire clan, bring 20 people or 30, leave the nibs alone and kill a few high rank clanned runners. If you want to invade MB be my guest, but make it worth my while leaving my Graves team, running to the nearest GR, waiting for SI loss then FREing when I drop down the lift.
MB is a military complex full of highly trained war veterans. It makes absolutely no RP sense at all that a couple of PKers should be able to even get through the front door, let alone run around inside killing anything that moves (that doesn't have a PPU).
I challenge any of you "boohoo the guards are too hard" types to spend 6 months as a City Merc and defend your territory, then come back here and say the same thing.
End of rant.
Goddammit Chumble could you have said it any better?? So Vet, theres a PvP element here. Yes thats true I love PvP. What I don't love is PK. PK is annoying, pointless and generally going to get your arse kicked.
Heres the difference:
PvP = Opwars or fights where BOTH players actually stand a chance of winning You can also include base raids in there as long as you stick to picking a fight the other side has chance of winning too.
PK = Attacking noobs, afk or tradeskillers. Base raids where you kill everything in sight and the brag about your 'skills'. Tell you what in a straight up fight I bet you couldn't punch your way out of a wet paper bag. And FYI (thats for your information if your tiny brain can't grasp that concept either) killing people while they are half dead at MC5 isn't PvP either. Thats PK and ohguesswhat that would be against the Neocron AUP and EULA. Go read it (if you can) and you'll see PK comes under the heading 'griefplay'. All it takes is someone to report you and you've damned yourself with all the evidence you post on this board.
Goddammit Chumble could you have said it any better?? So Vet, theres a PvP element here. Yes thats true I love PvP. What I don't love is PK. PK is annoying, pointless and generally going to get your arse kicked.
Heres the difference:
PvP = Opwars or fights where BOTH players actually stand a chance of winning You can also include base raids in there as long as you stick to picking a fight the other side has chance of winning too.
PK = Attacking noobs, afk or tradeskillers. Base raids where you kill everything in sight and the brag about your 'skills'. Tell you what in a straight up fight I bet you couldn't punch your way out of a wet paper bag. And FYI (thats for your information if your tiny brain can't grasp that concept either) killing people while they are half dead at MC5 isn't PvP either. Thats PK and ohguesswhat that would be against the Neocron AUP and EULA. Go read it (if you can) and you'll see PK comes under the heading 'griefplay'. All it takes is someone to report you and you've damned yourself with all the evidence you post on this board.
If you want to pla ya carebear game where all the pvp is when both ppl want to then go play a different game. In RYL u agree.. in SWG u agree? In FF there is now a kind of ppl where both ppl agree.. In NC its dangerous world. No1 shoul;d be running back to there NPC guards hoping they will gank the person and get there belt.
I'll raid MB alone. Why MB? where else am I going to find people? wastes are empty. So, ill kill a few low levels. 9/10 one of em is a cm alt. They will log their tank, run out, ill kill them. Then, he will call a ppu and a bunch of other people. I cant beat a ppu, 2 tans, 2 pes, and an apu, so I'll run away. Ill try to lead the fastest people away from the ppu, then pick them off.
"Wastes are empty"?
How about the Caves? Cycrow Reloading Point? The Steppes? Likewise, if you're so certain that the people you gank are just alternate characters, why not ask them to log the high level characters in the first place? Plus, why screech about how "unfair" things are when you're the aggressor in the first place?
As I said earlier, whatever happened to "adapt or die"?
Eventually, they wont leave the protection of their PPU. So, ill call for a ppu ofmy own. sometimes a few more people will come help me, sometimes not. This is not braging, this is FACT, the vast, vast majority of the time, we win with 2:1, 3:1 odds against us.
Ah, but it is bragging.
The minute you start twittering on about beating hundreds of people with only a chopstick, it becomes bragging. On a similar note, when you complain about PPU use, yet always use one yourself, it defeats the point of complaining in the first place.
The CM then resort to running to the guards, running out, putting a parashock on us, running back to guards, and just basically guard humping.
"Adapt or die". ;)
I know your going to say "bragging not going to reposnd, blah blah balh" but its true, if you dont belive it, come watch some time.
[FONT=Century Gothic]What makes you think I don't watch? All my experiences with Military Base "PVP" has been the person running in, ganking a few people levelling then running like hell before I've even got back outside.
Funnily enough, I then see these same people inflating themselves over the Trade channel a few minutes later.
Now, we are better fighters then the mercs... the guards should be removed, and we should be able to kill the players, because we are both the same level, they have MORE people, but we are better... we earned it.
If you're "better" fighters than the CityMercs, then you wouldn't have trouble with the guards. If you were so great, you wouldn't fight so close to them, after all. :)
If people dont like us killing their newbs at mb after killing the mercs, log your alts, help the mercs fight us...
Or, better yet, why don't YOU log a CityMerc alt and help defend the base? Or is something like that too much work for you?
and I would love, LOVE if BD had an HQ out in the waste lands and mercs/tg/fa would raid, just makes more pvp for me, and no, I wouldnt want guards, me and 1 ppu could stop a group of 6 mercs raiding, we have done it 100 times.
Then why does your faction never turn up to defend your city HQ when it's under attack? The assault has been shouted out over Trade and OOC, yet no-one has ever arrived.
Also, doesn't your "me and a PPU" bit contradict what you were saying earlier? I thought you never called for a PPU unless the enemy got one first?
Tell me moscow, since your such an expert, if HQs were unraidable, where the hell would I go to get good pvp? I hate op wars, its mostly waiting for your team to group up, then when you attack the defenders turret spam and zone whore the UG, when your on defence, you wait 2 hours for attackers to come... zzzzzz... HQ riading is where the real fun is at.
Why not ask over Trade, OOC or one of the other channels for decent PVP? Why not turn to duelling (But ditch the horrid excuses when you lose)? Why not go over to one of the factions which are "raided" and play a part in defending?
For all your preaching about this, you seem incredibly unwilling to make a little effort.
LiL T:
How so?
If you didn't do it, then you wouldn't feel the need to defend it. Simple.
I have been in this game long enough to have explored the whole neocron world 20 times over the Enviroment gets a bit boring after a while now lets start killing people for fun.
What does that have to do with the points raised? Other than you admitting to near-griefing, I mean?
Yes but that does not mean the people who want to PvP should'nt there are people that enjoy getting there base raided and put up the fight and come on the game would not have survived this long without open PvP in it.
Most "PVP" is just gank-squads targeting lower level Runners, then fleeing when serious back-up has arrived. Doesn't count as a "raid" as far as I'm concerned; if people enjoyed having levelling spots raided, they wouldn't be complaining would they?
Ah, but the game wouldn't have survived at all without the Player Vs Enviroment bit.
I don't call MB/TG/TH a lvling area and I'm not really braging about how good my skills are I'm simply explaining why I don't think they need gaurds if they can defend for them selfs
But the Military Base, Twilight Canyon and Tech Haven are levelling areas. Why do you think there are so many mobs littered about next to, or inside, those zones? And you're not explaining why guards aren't needed; you're simply demanding they be removed because they get in the way.
I've yet to see a substantial argument explaining your reasoning beyond "just because".
Peace.
-Moscow
If you want to pla ya carebear game where all the pvp is when both ppl want to then go play a different game. In RYL u agree.. in SWG u agree? In FF there is now a kind of ppl where both ppl agree.. In NC its dangerous world. No1 shoul;d be running back to there NPC guards hoping they will gank the person and get there belt.
Carebear is such a curious term. In relation to neocron it is applied to people who oppose griefplay; people who prefer even fights to one sided battle; often to tradeskillers - who are of course then called on as needed by the PKers; also to roleplayers, who seek more depth in their play than just running around and shooting.
It has always seemed to me that the term Carebear embodys all the good things about neocron players. So if I am labeled a carebear so be it; I will wear that name with pride.
The next time I am thanked by someone for interceding to protect them, when they are outnumbered and outgunned, I will be sure to remind them that I am a carebear, and hope that they follow in my carebear footsteps and go on to protect others.
Neocron needs Carebears; we are the ones who answer questions from newbies and give them advice on leveling; we're the ones who fight and die so they can level in peace; we're the ones who think not only of ourselves, but of others as well.
And Neocron also needs guards. Neocron is a dangerous place, death waits around every turn. But neocron is also a game; it is played for fun. The fact that it is a game should make people more considerate to the feelings of others, not less.
As this is a game you should not be under constant threat of attack. Safe places are needed where you can relax, do the maintanence jobs that take up a large amount of the in-game time while leveling, somewhere just to chat and maybe do a bit of RP. The guards generally provide that.
That's not to say that MB, TG Canyon, TH etc should be completely safe, but they should not be vulnerable to the whim and fancy of every bored runner who wants to pop by for a bit of random griefplay. Attacks on HQs should require concerted effort and large amounts of force.
Try and think of it from both sides. Let's say you want to do some PKing at MB. You GR into battle dome say, then run over to MB. You'll maybe fight for 15-20 minutes until a force is cobbled together to see you off. Net result is you've spent 30 minutes or so killing noobs, had a bit of fun, and can be moderately content.
Now look at it from the CM side. You've just finished fighting off a couple of PKers, and have gone back out to level. You've just managed to get your heal sanctum up when another bored Black Dragon comes for a PK run at MB. You know the guards will do exactly nothing about it unless they're directly shot at (and will then blunder into a corner, there to stay for the next week until a GM moves them). So you pack up your leveling kit and head home. This goes on all night. You're constantly at the call of bored PKers.
It's a nonsense to suggest that just because I am in City Mercs I should be required to defend MB around the clock. It's not fun, frankly. I utterly object to having to drop whatever I'm doing just to deal with one bored little kiddy who doesn't care that he is annoying real people who are trying to enjoy playing a game.
So I'm a Carebear, and I'd like 240/240 guards who aggresively hunt down any enemy that comes within half a zone of Military Base. Then perhaps you'll come with an army and make things interesting instead of PKing every noob you can find before buggering off on your hovertec, DMing abuse as you go. Every 20 minutes. All night.
Eledhbrant
06-06-04, 14:36
Hmmm, when I was TT I'd often help defend the MB since there would be times there'd be no mercs on, back then TG raided, not so much anymore.
I'm BD now, I have noticed a trend though, and I have WATCHED VetteroX raid solo before when I was on an LE char for example. He comes alone, on a PE or Spy for example, he does fine UNTIL they bring a PPU, so he asks for a PPU to come help, then the mercs all whine at him for bringing one.
So thats 2 people raiding with about 6 mercs standing at the entrance to MB behind the guards. They muster up to 8 people and rush out, probably kill Vet, ppu gets his belt, sometimes lives sometimes doesnt.
Then theres the other extreme, which tends to happen right after the 2v8 happened, BD brings 8. The mercs? Gone. Do they even come out? No. Enter MB, mercs? Gone. Where? Plaza usually.
On Saturn at least they don't want a decent fight :/
Guards should be able to sex their victims.
On Saturn at least they don't want a decent fight :/
I imagine it's like that on most servers; it certainly is on Pluto.
I'd say you've missed my point though (or not read my post *sob*). If you go to MB looking for a good fight you're bound to be disappointed. MB is the home of levellers mostly; capped players have little reason to be there.
So some noobs get killed - no good PvP there - then we get called in to deal with it. Generally in that situation I'm not interested in a decent fight; firstly noobs have been killed and that inclines me to give no quarter; secondly I've had to stop what I was doing, as have my clan, we've had to come back to MB and generally waste our time to deal with one or two people. I don't want a decent fight - I go to OPs for decent fights - I want the attackers dead, preferably quickly. If that means storming out with 2 PPUs and 6 attackers then so be it.
If (when) the attackers then complain in DM I politely offer them my entire ass for the kissing.
Eledhbrant
06-06-04, 15:33
Therein lies another problem, I was with pro one day they decided to attack some merc OPs, checked citycom, they had 8, we had 8, took Avenger, they didnt show except 1 ppu, took emmerson, no one came, Daigotsu DM'ed one of their leaders who replied saying they werent coming o_O So we went off to take a TG OP instead, just as we do that emmerson is attacked by about 16 mercs. Lovely.
EDIT: Oh dear 500 posts 8|
Mr Chumble or obviously listening to nothing im saying. YOur sayin we want guards to be pointless. I liek guards as much as i think an average payer should, i don't think they should do noting but i also don't think they should be as used as much as they are at all. ATM they do what players should be doing. If some1 starts on them or some1 they liek then they go agro yes... But they shouldn't respawn as fast and shouldn't be as hard. If you want ur HQ secure then you should do it.
Maybe when a guard is killed there is a faction warning that there HQ is under attack and guards respawn when there is no enemy in the same zone for 5 minutes or something. (LEs don't count). WOuld add precious RP as well :)
Make all these guards 30 zones away from there HQ like 40/40 or something.
CRP is defended by TG, where is defended by like city? just another obsticle.
There every1 is happy.
Therein lies another problem, I was with pro one day they decided to attack some merc OPs, checked citycom, they had 8, we had 8, took Avenger, they didnt show except 1 ppu, took emmerson, no one came, Daigotsu DM'ed one of their leaders who replied saying they werent coming o_O So we went off to take a TG OP instead, just as we do that emmerson is attacked by about 16 mercs. Lovely.
Yeah OP wars do tend to suck quite a lot. KK have said the OP system will be revamped for BDoY. Here's hoping it's better with a new system, simplified factions and more players.
Think they should be better, its far to easy to raid MB.
slaughteruall
06-06-04, 15:49
But the Military Base, Twilight Canyon and Tech Haven are levelling areas. Why do you think there are so many mobs littered about next to, or inside, those zones? And you're not explaining why guards aren't needed; you're simply demanding they be removed because they get in the way.
-Moscow
The HQ's are not lvling areas. There are ZONES inside or around them that are. I did not read your intire post because i cant be asked to read such utter bull shit.
As is stands now most people do not want to defend there HQ's because they think the PK'ers will leave after awhile or the guards will kill them. At least that is how it is at MB. TG do put up a fight they usually stay close to the guards/lifts but what ever.
Slaughter
Eledhbrant
06-06-04, 15:49
Yeah OP wars do tend to suck quite a lot. KK have said the OP system will be revamped for BDoY. Here's hoping it's better with a new system, simplified factions and more players.
I hope so too :(
Think they should be better, its far to easy to raid MB.
If you were an enemy to CM you'd probably say exactly the opposite. Have you ever raided the canyon? Maybe you have, maybe not, but would you like them to make their guards 200/200 Silent Hunter wielding guards that one-hit-kill you? Oodles of fun.
The HQ's are not lvling areas. There are ZONES inside or around them that are. I did not read your intire post because i cant be asked to read such utter bull shit.
Erm, if there are zones in and around them that are used for levelling, then they're levelling areas. o_O
As is stands now most people do not want to defend there HQ's because they think the PK'ers will leave after awhile or the guards will kill them. At least that is how it is at MB. TG do put up a fight they usually stay close to the guards/lifts but what ever.
That's because the Player Killers usually do leave; before their victims have been able to GeneReplicate back in if what I've seen is anything to go by.
Peace.
-Moscow
steweygrrr
06-06-04, 17:17
If you want to pla ya carebear game where all the pvp is when both ppl want to then go play a different game. In RYL u agree.. in SWG u agree? In FF there is now a kind of ppl where both ppl agree.. In NC its dangerous world. No1 shoul;d be running back to there NPC guards hoping they will gank the person and get there belt.
Who said anything about agreeing on a fight? I said fighting where the other person stands a chance of winning too. Or is that how you get all your tags because as soon as someone DOES show a chance of winning you fuck off? Lemme guess prepatch you were a pistol PE stealth whore. PE stealth was NOT skills it was a lame crutch, nor do PEs require compo for losing it. They should never have had it in the first place.
Why would anyone want them to not be hard? so they can go back to camping enemy faction HQs, genreps and leveling off the NPCs there?
If you dont want to get killed by guards dont goto the enemy territory..
MrChumble
Do these lvl 30's consider leaving there LE chips in till they can goto the caves ?
I'm sorry to bring the LE chip into it but its true these low lvl people are stupid to think there not gonna get pked at MB when I lvl my char I normaly go where nobody will interrupt me. I have taken my LE out at 0/2 and got pked my self but once I get to lvl 27 I drive around looking for good lvling areas which I can solo there are hundreds of them. It is a bit sad to kill people much much lower than me but it will be done cos if there on there alt or what ever they will do the same to me. I can tell who is a complete noob to the game and If I find this too be the case I go all carebear and leave them to it :p nah it depends really how I feel. But most of the noob killing is to bring out the higher players alot quicker and they do come quick
MrChumble
Do these lvl 30's consider leaving there LE chips in till they can goto the caves ?
Generally they ask for advice when they start and some idiot tells them to take it out. Also at mid levels it's better to have it out in terms of leveling because there's usually a PPU or PE around who can throw heals and buffs your way.
All of which I think is pretty irrelevent; why would anyone want to kill a lvl 30 leveling noobie, LE'd or not? Unthinking vindictiveness, bully complex, or just a total arse...I've never worked it out.
-=BlackBeard=-
07-06-04, 21:40
deffinately nerf half the joy of raiding mb and th has been taken away
we want it bak
Anyway CM guards must be 120/120 and KOS ,FFS there not some security company that protects the faction Hq like next or tangent They are MILITARY SOLDIERS Not some uneducated TG rebel or a Black dragon Thug
FFs they sould be the faction thats Kos's
Moscow, I dont see you responding to Eled, because you know he is right.
I dont get these constant bragging accusations... its just statment of fact. If someone would like to come along, and record our fights with the mercs, they are welcome to.
FACT: first attempt on mb raid will usually be without PPU
FACT: Mercs ALWAYS counter with a PPU
FACT: to counter this, Ill call a ppu... Im good, but im not good enough to kill a ppu, 2 tanks, and 2 pes with just my pe and a liberator, or my spy and a judge.
FACT: We will come to MB, and get a huge kill ratio, vs caped players, who are supported by a ppu.
FACT: often times, after defeating thefirst, and sometimes second wave, the mercs will counter attack with an enormous force. I'll die, ppu will run away. Within 15 minutes, we are back, now, with 6 people. Mercs are nowhere to be found now that we have 6 people... am I to belive EVERY merc logged off in 15 minutes time? Or are they too scared to fight 6 people after barely beating 2 with 10 people?
Now, I present these as facts. To prove them wrong, why dont you mercs record a video of you beating me or me and my team, with an even number of people? Put up or shut up.
And, ive already explained why I dont see op wars as good pvp, HQ raids is where its at.
Now, I present these as facts. To prove them wrong, why dont you mercs record a video of you beating me or me and my team, with an even number of people? Put up or shut up.
How does this in any way relate to the need or otherwise to have good guards around MB and other HQs?
Have you actually read this thread? Considered ANY of the arguments? Or are you going to constantly tell people you are the poor hard done by PKer who isn't allowed to kill noobies in peace?
The guards need to be good and effective exactly because there are people like you playing this game.
Make em 120/120, but have them drop tech parts!
Moscow, I dont see you responding to Eled, because you know he is right.
No, I ignore him because he's doing precisely what you've been doing; ignoring the crux of the thread and using the time to puff up an already over-inflated ego with ridiculous stories and slander.
As Mr.Chumble has already pointed out, it is, in fact, you that is missing the point(s) raised. If you expect to be taken seriously, the drop the ego and better-than-thou attitude.
Peace.
-Moscow
No, Im on topic. My ENTIRE point is that players CAN fight players and win: my point is this: If the mercs trained and put the effort I and eled do, they could stop a raid from TG or BD, totaly un assisted by guards... guards would be un nessesary. Thats what Im saying, you dont NEED guards, it should be the responcability of players to defend against other players! do you GET it yet?
I was just making examples that 2 people can kill 10 if they are good, so why cant mercs, why cant TG, why cant FAwho always have more people, (when defending their home base) defend against raids with just thier players, instead of guard hugging?
and PLEASE dont say this isnt true, tons of people have witnessed it time and time again.
Underground
08-06-04, 00:15
Guards, mass trained citizens with specialist equipment by their faction.
Rank, 120/120
Runners, people that have perfected their combat skills, generally have some of the best equipment out there.
Rank, xx/65 at most now
Why arent guards 65/65 ? Why are they TWICE the rank of a runner, when thats basically all that they are...
I say make them around 65/65, like runners, and take say the same ammount of time to take down, aswell as the damage output of say doomreapers and other 80/80 type mobs, instead of these 2-3 hit kill monsters we currently have ? O_o
Yes, guards are there for atmosphere, im not saying remove them, im saying make them normal instead of a army of 8 T2000's standing outside MB and every other faction HQ O_o
Gotterdammerung
08-06-04, 00:24
be nice to each other because i have a VERY heavy hand today, I'm not disposed to be very lenient
Keep 'em as they are, either that or make them tougher.
The faction guards as they stand now are nothing more than CopBots for the factions. To be honest, an enemy faction shouldn't be able to walk right into an opposing factions base without a fight - and that's the way it is now.
No, Im on topic. My ENTIRE point is that players CAN fight players and win: my point is this: If the mercs trained and put the effort I and eled do, they could stop a raid from TG or BD, totaly un assisted by guards... guards would be un nessesary. Thats what Im saying, you dont NEED guards, it should be the responcability of players to defend against other players! do you GET it yet?
No, I don't get it. For a very simple reason:
Your whole argument, every last post, is based on people having the same time, the same resources and the same Faction and clan as you to work with and be supplied by. Sorry, love, but that won't happen any time soon. The playerbase doesn't support it right now.
If you really are looking for a "challenge", then go over the to the people you supposedly "raid" and be the protector, rather than the aggressor. Why not set an example that guards "aren't needed" to defend the Military Base? After all, I've yet to see you defend the Black Dragon HeadQuarters, so this would be a good chance for you to *really* prove your argument.
I was just making examples that 2 people can kill 10 if they are good, so why cant mercs, why cant TG, why cant FAwho always have more people, (when defending their home base) defend against raids with just thier players, instead of guard hugging?
"If they are good."
As I said above, not everyone has the time to bother "training" and, therefore, won't have the same "quality" of resists, stats....etc. Also, if you're that worried about people guard humping, why don't you lead people away from them?
I seem to remember you, rather smugly, saying how you were capable of doing that.
and PLEASE dont say this isnt true, tons of people have witnessed it time and time again.
Sadly, those "tons of people" don't include me; so, as far as I'm concerned, you don't exist in-game.
Finally, rehashing the same comments over and over again doesn't mean you're on-topic; it simply means you can only address those few parts of a topic.
Peace.
-Moscow
OK here's my 2 cents on the issue.
I agree players should take an active role in defending their territory, the only problem is that often it's impossible given the way PKers 'raid'
They don't go in, duel honorably and then leave.
They go in when few people are around, slaughter the limited resistance and then proceed to set up in front of the GRs with AoE weapons...
or even better, they sit at the apartment elevators, killing you on sync.I have no problem being killed honestly, and I've been known to congradulate a PvPer after a well-fought match. But I hate people that abuse the system to win.
LoL, I dont exist in game... funny from someone who has been around a while but has to make a new name because they are too scared of letting people know who they are. We dont know who you are, what faction you are, what you do... so again why do your opinions matter? -Sorry Gottter thats about as nice as I can be.
I wouldnt be a merc because I dont like many of them, and even though a lot of BD and TG raid, they still only have 2 faction hostiles... not good for PK tours. I have friends in BD and I dont want to fight friends... I prefer killing people I dont like.
Im American, 90% of mercs are euro... if they raid at 6 pm their time, most likely Im not on... if I knew they were raiding BD HQ id kill em... but ive never seen the msg on trade, ooc or faction chat.
Again I'll say, the guards to me should just be regular people... in MY view, your explanation of guards being super human but non replaceable is BS... one because it just plain doesnt make sense, and 2, they ARE immortal because they pop back 30 seconds after being killed. They should be a MAX rank of 70/70... thats MAX.
edit: I call mercs running around guards abusing the system.
LoL, I dont exist in game... funny from someone who has been around a while but has to make a new name because they are too scared of letting people know who they are. We dont know who you are, what faction you are, what you do... so again why do your opinions matter? -Sorry Gottter thats about as nice as I can be.
If you put that much worth on an in-game name, then you're more shallow than I first believed. Besides, the only way I know about you is through the forums. Furthermore, my character, server and faction info are readily available if you can be bothered to look.
Funny how that works, isn't it?
I wouldnt be a merc because I dont like many of them, and even though a lot of BD and TG raid, they still only have 2 faction hostiles... not good for PK tours. I have friends in BD and I dont want to fight friends... I prefer killing people I dont like.
If you can't put aside personal feelings, then you're not much of a Player Killer are you? Likewise, you know "lots" of people "raid" the Military Base, yet you still refuse to be a defender simply because the Faction itself has few hostiles.
What's stopping you joining, say, CityAdmin (A faction with plenty of hostiles) and being a defender? You don't have to be a Mercenary just to defend the zones around their base.
Im American, 90% of mercs are euro... if they raid at 6 pm their time, most likely Im not on... if I knew they were raiding BD HQ id kill em... but ive never seen the msg on trade, ooc or faction chat.
The raids have always gone on during "American time", and none of them have been by the CityMercs. They've been done by the Tsunami Syndicate....no Black Dragon turned up, despite many of them being online.
Again I'll say, the guards to me should just be regular people... in MY view, your explanation of guards being super human but non replaceable is BS... one because it just plain doesnt make sense, and 2, they ARE immortal because they pop back 30 seconds after being killed. They should be a MAX rank of 70/70... thats MAX.
So because of game mechanics my idea makes no sense? With that reasoning, you've invalidated just about every idea out there; including yours.
Anyway, it seems you keep flipping between being able to handle over a dozen people at once, while under fire by NPC guards, when only equipped with a Colt Budget and some shoestring....yet other times you come across as if you're unable to handle the guards.
Which is it?
edit: I call mercs running around guards abusing the system.
I call destroying LE peoples' vehicles, killing the mobs they're levelling from and hacking "their" Warbots an abuse of the system.
What's your point?
It simply boils down to one thing, Vett; the "raiders" don't want any challenge from what they do, they just wish to eliminate the one thing that keeps the less refined, more gun-ho crowd away.
If you've spent as much time fighting as you claim to, you would have found ways around the guards by now; the ones you have most complaint with (The CityMerc ones) are focused in one area. If you can't avoid them, that's your problem, I'm afraid.
Peace.
-Moscow
I'm CM, and I think our guards are pussies...TG and BD run right past them like nothing...kinda pointless when the guards give 3 or 4 warnings, sometimes 5 before firing..at least give them more weaponlore so they hit their targets.
When I switched from TG to CM, I needed a PPU , plus a CM friend to shoot at the guards to distract them. Only because I was standing still talking to the recruitment officer. I always found the TG guards and thier fusion cannons hurt me more than the CM guards...
The raids on MB? Nothing but bullshit PK, the number of times it happened to my low-level characters....Except for a few respectful individuals who actually challenged us, and waited outside for the high levels to arrive (Sword, you are pretty cool, you bitchslapped us politely, and you let the low-levels pass by),
Most ``raids`` at MB are murder, nothing else.
No, Im on topic. My ENTIRE point is that players CAN fight players and win: my point is this: If the mercs trained and put the effort I and eled do, they could stop a raid from TG or BD, totaly un assisted by guards... guards would be un nessesary. Thats what Im saying, you dont NEED guards, it should be the responcability of players to defend against other players! do you GET it yet?
This makes several flawed assumptions.
Firstly it is, for the majority of the time, not the City Mercs who need the guards. It's newbies leveling in J01, nearby sectors, and the bunker specifically, who need the guards. When attacked they need somewhere safe to retreat to.
This is partly RP based and partly gameplay; being PKed and then having no where to run to is just plain not a good idea. Unless you are a pure PvPer (and I can't think of any) then you need safe-ish areas to 'downtime' and sort equipment, get things researched, chat to other runners etc.
You are saying that the guards prevent you from doing one person PK runs through MB. That's their entire purpose, and if they're actually serving their purpose then they don't need to be changed.
Secondly you're assuming that it is the City Mercs runners job to counter attacks on MB. To an extent I agree; but it is not fun to be at the constant call of PKers.
Yes CM runners should have to respond to major threats to MB...but not to every single lone PKer who wants to pick a fight. Close to MB the guards should be doing that job. Runner intervention should only be required if the attackers also have made some effort. This is after all a game and - as I've said in previous posts - having to drop everything to fend off one or two people is extremly irritating.
Lastly, and as Moscow has also said, you're assuming that CM runners are going to be around when MB is attacked. Given that MB can be attacked 24/7 this is not going to happen.
---------------
EDIT
As I've said before, I'd like to see large scale attacks on MB. Assaults with 10+ runners should be possible.
One change I'd like to see to make that more possible is for guards to have a long respawn delay. That way an attacking force could deal with the guards as they work their way inside without fear of them popping back into existance right away.
To balance that I'd (as ever) like properly effective guards who don't huddle in corners begging to be AoE'd.
---
be nice to each other because i have a VERY heavy hand today, I'm not disposed to be very lenient
Of all the issues in the game I think I regard this one most passionately. It's right at the heart of respectplay vs griefplay, and also a critical issue when you're in an "outpost" faction such as CM or FA. Considering that I think I'm been almost inhumanly restrained in my responses towards certain people who openly admit to being griefplayers :angel:
With server populations as they are, guards are needed, because some factions simply could never hold off an attack.
However, that means the guards which are present have to be powerful enough to threaten a raiding PPU. If they aren't, then anyone raiding will just bring along a PPU, and presto, instant useless guards.
This is why the guards have to have high ranks. Just like OP wars, it boils down to the PPU to unbalance things. If you have them at the right level for solo Tanks to come along and raid a bit but have to be careful with the guards, then PPUs make a team invulnerable to them, and if you make them high enough to hurt a PPU team, then the solo Tank is obliterated.
Dropping guards to 100/100 or 90/90 could probably strike a fair balance. Anything less can be done after something's done about PPUs (i.e. never :rolleyes:).
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