Recruit the Noobs

[BlueRobot]

I give up. If the mods really think what this dude is doing is on Topic and no flame...
Closed by threadstarter pls

[I See Blue]

Yes, that was a good idea. But the should have been posted in a different thread, "Ask not what your game etc etc" I´ve been planning a PvP tournament, my idea was a setup like the world cup, with some preliminary groups, and then a ladder tournament based on the ranking from the groups. I´ve also toyed with the idea of doing group fights, 3 vs 3 or 4 vs 4, with max 1 ppu, and a king of the hill tournament, where the last man/team standing after a set timelimit wins.

But stay on topic please. You didn´t answer anything as usual. Or post anything relevant to this thread, which isn´t about events, but about encouraging more clans to form and join in the fighting.

[r3yka]

well my god, you actually said something slightly positive Please now, don't revert back to your pessimistic 'the game's f'd, you guys fix it im playing COD' mentality. yes Will, we are currently cooking up some ideas for some PVP and non PVP events. Our first events were a little under planned, and whilst being fun, were not to their maximal potential so we want to try take our time and put our heads together, and probably contact a GM or to this time.

Hell, if you guys join, it might even end up being a platform for you or some other clans to do some talent spotting. If you haven't completely given up on the idea of making a clan that is.

[Doc Holliday]

WOOOOOOOOOOOO I NEED HEAT 3 AND A RED! STAT!

So around page 2 or 3 I get pulled in to the flame war? I get called pathetic? i get accused of some other stuff too in the wall of text posted by bluerobot despite making 2 previous posts in the thread serving to highlight a few points or agree with a few points raised.


Guys the truth hurts. Blue if your gonna make it about clan vs clan then you already failed in your task to make the thread go somewhere. at the end of the day you were the one in the situation of having no one to fight and now you start belittling one of the clans who at least attempted to fight.

Do you think that will some how want us to come back?

As for the rest of you from 17th why are you tarring me saying this thread wasn't a personal address to me? I never treated it as such merely discussing, agreeing and disagreeing with various points including some i refrained to post publicly but instead said in private i think you shouldn't have posted that bro. I will let you guys decide where that one fell.


So seriously if you are going to make a thread like this be prepared for the backlash and dont go on a huuuuuuuuuuuuuge witch hunt against people who are undeserving of it. You guys got butthurt on the forum by Will. Hes my brother. We are twins (irl) but that isnt me. So watch who you aim the shit flinging at.

Good luck and i hope that you manage to find people to fight against and hopefully one day when the populations pick up again and there are more than about 30 people playing on my night time i too will come to play.

[I See Blue]

Man, I was just gonna go to bed when I saw this. Ah well, it can wait for 5 minutes.

Doc, I do agree that you have not been part of this exchange, and I gotta say most of the time your post are reasonable. I think the reason people tend to lump you and Will together is that well, you back him up. And he spouts a lot of nonsense repetatively in this thread. And he doesn´t seem to respond to arguments against his points, he just harps on. This is the second thread I´ve been in that he has derailed and pulled away from topic. He deliberately ignores what people say basically, and comes with a lot of negativity. And that is a nightmare to have in your threads when you are trying to do something positive for the game

Now you came in first with a decent enough post, about what difficulties you had encountered etc, which I saw as good input. It was clear you tried and found it hard. See, that was the reason for this post in the first place.

Now, the second time you come in, William has worked his negativity a bit more. He is trying to make it about 17th splitting, and organizing the opposition against ourselves, in a post that was an offer to help people building something up. Which is a negative approach, just designed to wind people up. And I am telling him this is not an option, because it would basically land us in the same situation you described in your first post Doc, having big trouble scrounging together a group to practice and fight with. Now Will doesn´t listen, and harps on negatively, and I try to answer him with proper arguments.

Then you come and tell me specifically that I need to back off in the thread and you back him up. And that post sort of lumps you in with him and his viewpoints, in the whole thread, because all you state is that he is right. Not which topic or which of his statements that he makes, just that he is right. You also use a quite extreme example of babysitting new runners, which really isn´t fair to the discussion. To be fair, you state that it is extreme yourself.

And then you say that we refuse to make an alt clan. As if it our responsibility to oppose ourselves? How is this what the post is about? It was an offer of help, with whatever people would need to start a clan and get some PvP going. We did offer to help out, to make an effort. And you and Will make it out like we are the ones who don´t want to help? Will tries to make it out Blue Robot only offered TS help, but he clearly states we are willing to help with whatever, even giving out OPs so they get an easier way into op fighting (easier to defend than attack after all)

So basically, that´s why the guys say you and Will, because you threw your lot in with him. Might not be fair, but you did take sides quite clearly, by saying what Will said is perfectly correct.


As for flaming

You add this tidbit "Its like a drunken husband going crazy and smashing things in an argument with his wife who then ups and leaves and he wakes up to the mess." Clearly aimed at us. Now ain´t that something to say about us as a clan? We broke everything and chased the wife away? And you wonder why people might see that as a flame and send some comments back at you? Please, you know better than that.

In addition you also add get off the high horse and then back off for the second time, which again, are negative descriptions of me.

In short, we didn´t get butthurt by Will, he just repeated the same point over and over without making a genuine argument for it until it became really annoying. I explained how it wasn´t viable, yet he kept on. He even kept on when I asked him nicely to stop, since we didn´t feel he was contributing. And he kept it up. As for you, you backed him up, and threw some stuff around too, so don´t act like you are all innocent here.

Now, I´ve had respect for what you posted before on the forums, but this one is just off the mark. Brother or no, you still gotta see right from wrong, and be tough enough to stand up to him and say it. As you indeed seem to imply that you did with the personal message. This was an offer of help from 17th, and you guys treated it like it was a demand, you read into it what you wanted to read. William especially, but you too, since you backed his bullshit up.

Now, just for a little extra poke: In your 2nd post, you name us ninjaing as a reason why you quit. Yet in the post William famously made, where he treathened to take our ops away if we didn´t do what he said, he clearly states that ninjaing is fair game. It´s ok by you guys. In fact you say reply this in the thread: "So everyone cries ninja. everyone cries in general. "

[-AB-]

Reges eos in virga ferrea tamquam vas figuli confringes eos

[Juppe]

I cant understand why all of you so mad at will..if he give you suggestions for your problem you could have just said thank you for your input but our clan isnt big enough to split or whatever. Nobody here said you should split the clan..it was only suggestion which lead to 4page topic with huuuuge walls of text saying nothing and gettin at will.. Cool thread guys. Nice conversation aye? I believe forums are meant for conversation. You shouldt take it personally, its not like someone said your mom is fat or anything..

[William Antrim]

I will continue to express my views in my polite and very logical style whilst ever I am able. I don't need to rage, call in my friends or belittle and flame anyone.

You asked for suggestions and help on how to improve the game. I gave you two. One you liked and one you didn't. I'm not the one with a problem here guys.

You all are. You need to step back and read this thread as a neutral outsider because it is doing nothing good for you. I keep saying it because it is true. I don't really care that you don't like it. It doesn't make it false. We are all allowed to express our opinions.

If you get so wound up maybe you should try to relax before replying. All I have done is disagree with you and you guys have turned into raging monsters. No need.

As for the PvP idea. Great stuff. I hope it works.

But please understand the basics of human psychology. If there was someone in the game with the drive, passion and motivation to do as you ask they would've done it by now.

If the Op fighting clans of old (who know how all this stuff works) can't be arsed to come and fight you then why would a bunch of noobs want to try straight out of the box.

You're asking the impossible right now. Nc is not pick up and play PvP. Lots of other games are. The casuals go there. Everyone else is waiting for Sparta.

[William Antrim]

I cant edit previous post.

This is a long one.


I am going to clarifiy my position in the most respectful, thoughtful and descriptive manner I can.


Ok here goes:


You guys (17th) offered to help a new clan out, you offered TS, OPs, Training and all the logistical support.

You missed out on the leadership. This is where your idea will fall down.

1. You quoted the server pops at peak time as being 10-15% (lets say 150 people) but you posted this in the english section. So we need to estimate that that figure drops by half. Just for round figures. Then you can drop that figure by half at least for the amount who bother to read the forum.

So you have a pool of around 75 people at maximum to pick from. (30 odd on the forum?)

2. Neocrons population is aging. We are all fans of the game but we are all getting older and getting on with our lives. Some people play nightly, some once a week. If you are going to get an op fighting team together in a short space of time you need to have a group of 6 (ideally minimum in my opinion) to get a good fight. Then the other team has to get the same for the fight. How often does this happen?

3. The casuals just wont cut it at op fights. Sure its nice to have them when youre in a clan 25 strong (as you rightly said) but you need the core players.

4. Leading from 2 and 3 how often in a given space of time do you manage to achieve these numbers? And you guys are experienced in op fights. Think double that time to train new people. Months potentially. 2 or 3 or more even.

5. Boredom - casual pvp this isnt. During that time 2-3 months or whatever you need a good leader to keep everyone together. Or a group of leaders. Is that person in nc? I dont know. However there will always be people coming and going from that group. In a group so small and so in need of practice do you think that it can afford to be down 20-40% of its core when it needs to train?


6. Losing - Nobody likes losing, fact. Goes hand in hand with boredom. People will leave. RL issues get in the way (like they did in my case) and people leave for various reasons. New games even come out catering to the casual pvper (ESO anyone? if the devs there can understand that there is a market for casual pvpers then how comes you guys cant see it?).

7. The snowball effect. As people start to leave more will leave. They see less and less people wanting to turn up, train and fight then they too decide its time to go.

8. The lack of person (people) at the top to keep this all together, the nucleus of GOOD pvpers that keep the rest logging on. Where are they?


So in short you failed to account for we call the Human terrain. The above are all psychological reasons in basic human nature why people just wont pick up and do what you want them to do because you made a thread about it.

Look at yourselves. You flame the shit out of me because I am in opposition to you. What makes you think anyone else will want to come in for that kind of fire?

Look how many people ACTUALLY posted in your thread? Apart from Doc and me....a few others? Hudsonbeck is the only one contributing ideas. I know he is new to the game and is just getting back in because we have spoken about it plenty on PM.

The others just wonder why youre so inflammatory.

So I refer you back to my original idea.

With said idea you have the majority of those points covered - leadership, experience, initiative, equipment etc.

You asked the rest of the server to step up and give you a fight? What right do you have to do that?

I asked you to step up and help them and you flame me for having the balls to say so?

Not one of you thus far has given me a decent answer to my question. YOU guys want this to happen so why cant YOU be the ones to make it happen? What makes you think anyone else is going to?

Based on the replies in this thread and the amount of people who bothered to post it doesnt seem like anyone really cares about your lack of opposition.

I think this is quite sad the way this thread has ended tbh. I gave you two good solid ideas and you boys tried to nail me to the cross with them.

I keep repeating them because I would like someone to give me a solid answer as to why YOU cant try to fix the server? Because youve done it before? recruiting the power house that is 17th today?

Do you actually realise that all you have done is recruit almost ALL of the active op fighting community so that there really ISNT anyone left to recruit for ANOTHER clan? Thats the reason why you have made this thread?

That's the point I am trying to get across but you guys are too set in your ways, narrow-minded possibly even blind to see it? This is not a flame. It is a genuine question. As I have made all through the thread. You see 15% online in this game and you think it must mean there are over 100 people ready to fight why havent they?

I have been in this situation before - at the end of NC1 we faced a similar problem, people quitting due to lack of pvp, waiting on NC2 and DOY coming out, it happened on Terra too. People tired of hackers etc. People vote with their feet.

You guys cant see that or dont want to? I am not sure which it is but please stop with the flaming. It just makes you look really bad and makes people give even less of a fuck about what you actually want to say.

Take my posts out and this thread wouldnt even make two pages. It would've sank to the bottom of the forum and been forgotten about long ago.


Peace gents


W

[BlueRobot]

I'm not even goint to read that bs by William anymore. Sorry hes your brother Doc but the amount of effort he puts into trolling here indicates that his rl/NC involvement are kind of out of balance.

If you're not a complete douchebag you can have OPs from us and ask us for help with whatever.(You can even use our ts for the start)

This is where i made clear I'm not interested in discussing Williams E-Penis but rather want new guys who might not know enough about the game to start a clan on their own.

[I See Blue]

I will continue to express my views in my polite and very logical style whilst ever I am able. I don't need to rage, call in my friends or belittle and flame anyone.

LMAO. You are a long way from being polite in this thread, as for logic, you don´t seem very interested discussing. I and others repeatedly tell you that the suggestion you made is not going to happen. And explain to you why. And you had Doc come in to back you up, it´s just that you have less people connected to you playing the game/using forums currently.

The last post here is one of the few times you actually back up your statements with your reasoning. It is flawed in my opinion, you change about what you have said before, and you contradict yourself, but at least you are arguing your point for once. Sadly, your negative attitude before this makes me very reluctant to answer you, since I think you will just drift back into name calling and negativity.

[BlueRobot]

Its pointless. Most of his bullshit already got proven wrong but he just posts 2 more pages of off-topic spam and then posts it again.

[William Antrim]

Lol yeah ok chaps. I dont need anyone to back me up. If you cant see reason then I cant help you. At the end of the day its like this; you can listen to alternative points of view or you can continue to flame.

Either way you arent going to get the fights that you so desperately want and the situation in the game is not going to get any better.

I have not once contradicted myself, changed what I said or flamed any of you. All you do with these continuous posts is make yourselves look even more silly than you managed previously.

You have not proved any "bullshit" yet.

People connected to me? I dont need to go asking the guys in my clan to back em up. Some of them already have expressed their own opinions, here and elsewhere. We have discussed this privately prior to this thread coming up. I am safe in the knowledge that I speak for myself and I know that others have agreed by the fact that they arent here any more.

I havent yet called anyone names. You chaps seem incapable of having a normal conversation (both of you) but therein lies your greatest weakness. I dont understand how you expect to make this game better when you cant even hold a mature, reasonable discussion.

So far all you have done is call an alternate point of view bullshit, flame some more and then get riled up a lot. How is any of that of benefit to anyone?

If you guys can try your best to actually address some of the points you might find some proper discussion takes place but if you continue to post in the manner you are then you will see that the forum population will tune you out, just as people in the game have left and cant be bothered to fight you any more.

The fact is, everyone else got bored of fighting in nc, you are the only ones left and you want someone else to fix it. Someone else wont do that so either you chaps do it or noone does. You have very high opinions of yourselves it seems presently but I think in time when you realise that as the population dwindles and the fights happen less and less I hope that you will at least try to change things. I hope that by then its just not too late.

I feel sorry for you tbh. You're just sitting there waiting for someone else to step up but noone else is going to. There is no benefit in it to them, no reward. You want the benefit but you dont want to put the work in.


Good luck all the same.

[Doc Holliday]

when you cut down to the bone in this thread the one thing that absolutely rings true is there is one quick fix solution to your troubles with lack of opponents. Making an alt clan. THAT friends is a fact. Its the best and quickest fix.


The question is do you want to play the long game (training up people and waiting for them to develop) or the short game (quick fights like tomorrow)

You guys have vehemently denied you will split up the clan in 17th so that truthfully leaves you with the other option of the long game and hoping someone will some how pull together a clan and provide opposition to you.

Remember here its YOU who made this thread and rightly or wrongly on the 2 options William has a very valid point. Just because you dont like how he addresses it doesnt mean its NOT a valid point. It is a solution to your woes which is lack of competitive pvp in neocron currently.

Its all very well and chivalric of you to offer resources etc but the biggest resource you need is man power. There doesnt seem to be much of that available. it is the scarce resource here.

So what happens next. Well you can go on waiting for something to happen a clan to magically spring up and provide the opposition you need (if you didnt need it there wouldnt be this flame war thinly disguised as a thread) and make a kickstart to the op scene.

Now in the real world we all know this wont happen over night. So what happens then. If boredom truly sets in how many members do you think you guys might lose? Honestly. boredom sets in and people vote with their feet (as you have already stated with the likes of LG/Tasa et al disappearing)

So then what. Its an uphill battle however you cut it to get this jump started and one thing i have noted from some of your own posting and wills dissection of said posts is that you do seem to want someone else to do the heavy lifting so to speak. The adamant refusal to even start a seperate clan as a trainer clan or anything of the like (think baseball and farm teams) has been smacked down harder than a red headed step child.

All it leaves is a ghost town of a server in the op fight scene.

Ps. If you really were serious about getting something like this off the ground i dont feel THIS forum was the best place to use it. As a non german speaker (at least natively) i cant account for how well it would have been received there but here there is such a tiny amount of regular postings it seemed like a massive miscalculation in my eyes. Then again when you are desperate and passionate enough to start this up in the first place you have to give anything a shot right.

Drachen nailed it with his sig. fix the community. The shit flinging in this thread and all the hyberbole, vitriol and outright rhetoric really needs to get culled fast if you really want to fix it.

Zoltans post was on the money about the win at all costs attitude.

I feel having read through the last five pages of essentially horseshit for discussion on all sides that if our clan even tried to begin again op fighting and do everything you have asked for in the opening post and attempt to contend that i cannot be sure you wont use every single dirty trick in the book to squash us because you have a serious beef with Will. Thats the truth.

I do recall being told by a good friend of mine who has, i believe, an alt in your clan because he joined when we were all away some six months ago that despite us being inactive we were KOS.

I think that probably rings even more true now than ever.

I promised myself i wouldn't even bother to add any more to this thread but I felt compelled all the same just to give one more attempt to try and steer it in to logic.

Now that there are a great many posts from a big part of your clan maybe between you and the rest of the forum here a logical and feasible solution can be found.

Now lets see if you can keep the petty insults out of it all bluerobot (yes im talking to you directly) because your wall of text about us quitting because we got owned was very wide of the mark and also hilariously funny and mildly immature. I didnt come to the forum and make the thread you did but i am offering to at least try and put forth a reasonable discussion. I realise you cant edit that post any more but maybe you can come back with something reasonable in recompense.

I am now hoping for a new patch in the future to hopefully draw in new/old players again and maybe this discussion can go away as everyone gets back to piew piewing and not QQing.

[William Antrim]

I just wish they would read posts before dismissing them in anger.

I don't see it happening though. Too much rage and hate.

It's actually quite sad that you can't have a mature discussion. I even laid out my points with numbers so you could keep track better. But still. We should all get on teamspeak together and chat about it like real men. Better still, get together over a beer and have a proper chat.


I'd just love to know what caused the rage so much tbh.