Current Discussion Topics: Classes and Professions

[Rage]

I dont think Jini's idea are focused on RP but seemly pure PvP. Just guessing but as for the switch and set job classes. thats not unheard of... most RPGs work that way and this is a RPG.

But nothing wrong with a lil PvP... if it was a pure PvP game like say Halo, UT etc.. yea i'd say cut the PPU. make one class of monk etc... thats why im thinkin Jini is only thinking on the PvP. Im not sure though

[onero S]

I think if people are able to switch proffessions, why bother implementing profession restrictions?

so that you can't use say HH and HL at the same time.


Also RE speed, here is how I picture it.

Spy: Fastest
Monk: Almost as fast as a spy with no pa, PA makes you the same speed as a PE.
PE: see above, not a big differance from monk speed.
Tank: slightly slower than monks/PEs


Reasons for this:
Spys are made to be hit and run, with low defence and only high dmg/stealth to rely on they need speed.

Monks: Also low defence:apu they need speed to have any chance, a slow glass cannon is a dead one.
Perhaps make s/d slow you down to componsate so that PPUs are not super fast and apu/ppu teams arre not super fast.

PEs: More defence than apus, but still fairly fast to make up for not super dmg and not super defence. Same lvl of speed as hybrids (if you are going with s/d slow you down than pes have same speed base as monks, but will be slower than apus due to having s/d on.)

Tanks: PE lvl with no weapon out making a melee tank still fairly fast, with weapon out hc tank remains slowest class, the reason for this is the tank is supposed to take dmg using his huge resists and does not need speed the way the other classes do. Due to the high resiliance of tanks para would have a very very reduced effect on them and would last an extra short time.

[jini]

Jini - got to disagree with you there. Getting rid of PPUs so its all personal skill is daft. There shouldbe a call for real teamwork in the game.

Teamwork will still be here with us Cmaster, as in terms of more focused shooting. Wehn you have a ballanced game with no surprises, you can focus doing some real teamwork and strategy as well. Skill will emerge and skillfull players wil have the edge they deserve, but will also be in the target of everyone, therefore the first to get killed. You just dont have that now.

And yes, im speaking for pvp. That's the reason NC is a niche: its pvp features. RP can easily be workde by Dirus and kk staff, provided they have the time and imagination to create new stuff for fun and RP. You can then roll a non combat character to have a pause from continuous shooting

Edit: btw, I have retreated from the idea of dumping apus (apus Not ppus). In the offense<>defense scheme, like Dirus said it must be the option of the runner to choose how offensive or defensive he should be according to his skills, but as I also said in the other sticky, we MUST promote skill versus autoplay as well. It's not as easy playing a PE as playing a Tank

[onero S]

And yes, im speaking for pvp. That's the reason NC is a niche: its pvp features.

It's not as easy playing a PE as playing a Tank

A few things, first of all, I disagree about ppus, taking them away will require less teamwork, sure you can still focus fire on 1 target, but it won't be that big of a deal if you don't.

Second of all where are you getting this crap about PEs taking more skill to play than tanks? And whats your Point?

First of all I disagree, just because you have ppu spells in your QB doesn't mean it takes more skill, imo PEs aiming is much less hard than tanks and your gun does not slow you down. I also think its funny that somone who is lobbying for no ppus plays the combat class with the most ppu skill.

[imper1um]

Really, how the hunt for balance should be is that you need a good balanced team. APUs should have all their spells on the Shelter side of things. No Deflection type spells should be anymore for APUs. Instead, more Tanks should have more Deflection type spells. Also, Deflector and Shelter should have a shelf absorption. It can only absorb x damage at y% rate, with max z seconds if no damage is taken.

So, basically, there would be a little different stats associated with it:

1. The Maximum Seconds that the Shield can last.
2. The Damage taken per second.
3. The Amount of Damage required to remove 1 second off of the shield
4. The percentage of damage that the shield absorbs from a blow

So, basically, there would be four different stats:

For example, a Sample Shield can absorb up to 100 damage for every second left on the shield. The shield lasts 10 seconds, maximum. The shield also absorbs 25% of the damage from a single blow.

So, in this perspective, when the shield is 1 second old, 900 more damage can be taken. If the shield absorbs 100 damage, the shield has 1 less second left to survive.

That way, it makes it so that the shield is more realistic than anything else.

[jini]

A few things, first of all, I disagree about ppus, taking them away will require less teamwork, sure you can still focus fire on 1 target, but it won't be that big of a deal if you don't.

Well like it or not, ppus can send offence/defense equation to hell. So we must eliminate them. If we still have them, then with all the ballancing we will get they wont be TheGods anymore and none will play them

Second of all where are you getting this crap about PEs taking more skill to play than tanks? And whats your Point?

ok if it is too hard for you ill break it to pieces:
the tank: Gun out and wosh-wosh-wosh (CS)
the pe: drug1+haz1+spy1+pc1+S+D THEN gun out and pew-pew-DB-pew- heal-drugflash (Judge) Got it now?

First of all I disagree, just because you have ppu spells in your QB doesn't mean it takes more skill, imo PEs aiming is much less hard than tanks and your gun does not slow you down. I also think its funny that somone who is lobbying for no ppus plays the combat class with the most ppu skill.

yes well you disagree for disagreeing without presenting any arguments.
The combat class with the most ppu skills is the hybrid, and ppu spells are here to COMPLIMENT what the tank has by DEFAULT

[solling]

ok if it is too hard for you ill break it to pieces:
the tank: Gun out and wosh-wosh-wosh (CS)
the pe: drug1+haz1+spy1+pc1+S+D THEN gun out and pew-pew-DB-pew- heal-drugflash (Judge) Got it now?

Ita takes more skills to win as a tank then as a pe i think

[jini]

Ita takes more skills to win as a tank then as a pe i think

It is harder to win in a duel as a tank (a pe) but its more difficult to play the pe. As I have said, skill is with a pe, all the tank has to do is pull a cannon out and aim. The pe needs the same but at the same time he needs his spells to survive. The tank doesnt need that. Some tanks don't even use heal.

Things are like this and its right. Complication in a PE is 2-3x more than a tank. Complication leads to skill, and if we want to reward skill then a PE wins in 1-1 duels. On the other hand, who is more usefull in OP fights? (before the sexbow era that is )

[Spermy]

Just for the record - if anything, I belive a tank should have the middleground in speed, these guys are genetically enhanced, the ceres wars were'nt fought by a bunch of hobbling misfits.

Speaking purely from a "As things stand" viewpoint, the tanks slow speed is the single biggest killer. In conjunction with tiny clip sizes, and it's safety-shelled little brother, the PE. The Tank is simply an easier target, who can take at most2 or 3 shots more than a PE.

He cannot deal a reasonable amount of damage due to clip size. I propose that either clip sizes are looked at, to make a slower damage dealer, or speed malus removed from weapons, to make him competetive in combat, as opposed to a sitting duck, who puts out next to nothing.

There is no point in having high resists, a big health pool etc, if you are so slow, that the other players just have to move behind you to win.

It is harder to win in a duel as a tank (a pe) but its more difficult to play the pe. As I have said, skill is with a pe, all the tank has to do is pull a cannon out and aim. The pe needs the same but at the same time he needs his spells to survive. The tank doesnt need that. Some tanks don't even use heal.

Things are like this and its right. Complication in a PE is 2-3x more than a tank. Complication leads to skill, and if we want to reward skill then a PE wins in 1-1 duels. On the other hand, who is more usefull in OP fights? (before the sexbow era that is )

Sorry, I disagree wholeheartedly, having played both classes.

[jini]

There we go another one disagrees and is also sorry .... how come there is no point in big health pools and uber resists? then make a tank having NO health at all. Have you ever faught RexCondo ? Have you ever faught UPSA?

I have already mentioned to lift the weapons speed malus for ALL classes.
As for the rest, there are also rifle pes or we totally forget about them?

Poor arguments of the past has led the game in what we have now...

[Spermy]

There we go another one disagrees and is also sorry .... how come there is no point in big health pools and uber resists? then make a tank having NO health at all. Have you ever faught RexCondo ? Have you ever faught UPSA?

I have already mentioned to lift the weapons speed malus for ALL classes.
As for the rest, there are also rifle pes or we totally forget about them?

Poor arguments of the past has led the game in what we have now...

Yes - But when you state the rex condo issue - it has nothing to do with Balance. Rex is Good, damn good if you want, but balance assumes we are all Damn good.

Having played the game to death, I stand by my opinions. Poor arguments are all we will ever get, no two people will agree, and It'll be a cold, cold day in hell if we ever unanimously agree on anything.

It's differences of opinions like mine and yours which kinda puts a damper on any kind of balancing forums, we both want different things, and see it from different perspectives.

Notice how I never said you were wrong.

[Galileo]

Reduce the total Skill cap to 290; removing:
Monks 5 DEX & 5 CON
PE's 5 DEX and 5 CON
Spies - Not sure.
Tanks - 10 PSI and do the medkit thing

No need to add (especially not to > 100) other skills.

[Zephar123]

[QUOTE=Spermy]Just for the record - if anything, I belive a tank should have the middleground in speed, these guys are genetically enhanced, the ceres wars were'nt fought by a bunch of hobbling misfits.

Speaking purely from a "As things stand" viewpoint, the tanks slow speed is the single biggest killer. In conjunction with tiny clip sizes, and it's safety-shelled little brother, the PE. The Tank is simply an easier target, who can take at most2 or 3 shots more than a PE.

He cannot deal a reasonable amount of damage due to clip size. I propose that either clip sizes are looked at, to make a slower damage dealer, or speed malus removed from weapons, to make him competetive in combat, as opposed to a sitting duck, who puts out next to nothing.

There is no point in having high resists, a big health pool etc, if you are so slow, that the other players just have to move behind you to win.




have to agree with you spremy.

[jini]

Yes - But when you state the rex condo issue - it has nothing to do with Balance. Rex is Good, damn good if you want, but balance assumes we are all Damn good.

Having played the game to death, I stand by my opinions. Poor arguments are all we will ever get, no two people will agree, and It'll be a cold, cold day in hell if we ever unanimously agree on anything.

It's differences of opinions like mine and yours which kinda puts a damper on any kind of balancing forums, we both want different things, and see it from different perspectives.

Notice how I never said you were wrong.

Rex is a very good tank, because he knows how to aim and move. He already has powerfull weapons(he uses a CS). So, all thats left for his character to win in a duel situation, which if I remember correct is all Rex likes is just how to put his skill to work. Skill in a tank is all about Aim and Dodging. If I'm not carefull 100% in a duel situation with Rex, Rex will kill me guaranteed. However I do agree that when I'm fully buffed and use the xbow I win. But the difference is very little and the effort for a xbow is very big, or was...
For me, there are just not good tanks anymore. Anyone (but rex and couple more tanks) has jumped the monk bandwagon or have made a melee tank. Try dueling smurfis some time and you will see what a tank can do in the hands of someone who aims.
I'm certain it wasn't Dirus's idea -maybe I'm wrong- but playing a PE even a crossbow PE, IS NOT the easiest thing to do. In my opinion, skill must prevail and give a bonus (not a lot) to those that pursue hard to play characters and help them win in a duel. Not by much, something in the +5% - 10% range
Tanks HC or melee, Apu monks, and to some extent combat spies have it very easy. They even rely on ppus for their defenses or they just dont use but the very basic psi stuff. All that's left is shoot shoot shoot. Compare that to a PE who not only has to shoot, but also use psi at the same time

[RogerRamjet]

Some tanks are naturally fast.

You know those people you see flying past you in grav lifts? Those have to (apparently) spec less points to reach a certain speed, and apparently my tank has it, as do some others.