Reinstate the XP bonus for removing the LE

[Chuck Norris]

No, it's not BS, you're simply misunderstanding what is being said. These are not people killing contacts for *their* epics. These are people doing things like killing Manuel in PP2 so that *others* can't finish their quests until they respawn.



Leaping to false conclusions again. The idea that people *must* pull their LE before capping was not brought up here. I explicitly stated that the suggestion in this thread wouldn't affect LE'd players at all, but here you are trying to make it sound like the suggestion was to make LEs going away. Are you trying to construct some sort of slippery slope argument or something? Like an American talking about gun control? That's not what's being discussed here and that's not how the thread originator asked that we comport ourselves in this thread. I'm starting think that dope dude is right and you're just a troll.



Which would matter, I guess, if we were discussing removing LEs all together, but since that's not the point, ultimately irrelevant. Walk away if you don't want to participate constructively. the real Chuck Norris doesn't troll. He punches their trolling faces through the back of their trolling little heads.



What moot points? Are you saying comparing Neocron 2.2 to any other game is invalid, or just comparing it to itself from 10 years ago? Cuz, if you'd prefer we can talk about DAOC and other games that handle this problem significantly better than its treated here, now. The point isn't to bring back the "halcyon" days of NC1 (which were not all that Halcyon, I was there. In fact, I was there 4 years before you ever started playing if your join date is accurate) -- the point is to illustrate how things have changed and to maybe express the opinion that said changes weren't always for the better. Much like when they moved half of us to DoY. They realized that was a mistake and changed it, why can't we also examine other potential mistakes?

Or is it simply that you fear change and want to shout so loud no one will notice this might be a change for the better? That's really not helping anyone, except those that want to make the case that you're not worth listening to.

Where did I leap lol? man all youve done is attack me personally for refuting your points; look in the mirror if your looking for a troll.

You have zero substance just attacks, thanks!

[Chuck Norris]

So it's a pure numbers game? I'm not sure I buy that argument; it precludes the possibility that the newbs could be good tacticians or could have used the terrain to their advantage or could have executed a strategy. But again, totally irrelevant -- this isn't a conversation about removing the LE completely. Hell, it isn't even a conversation about changing the rules beyond giving some bonus XP to those that choose to remove their LE early.

Where and when would this even take place you describe? You make up some crazy scenario about noob luring a ganker into some trap a bunch of low level un'LE'd players setup???? this isnt making much practical in game sense

[Chuck Norris]

That's a mechanical difference, but not one that really matters. Yes, technically the Xp debuff was on LE'd players, but the effective result was that you got more XP by shouldering the risk than you did obviating it.

And if you are in an active clan (IE no LE) you will probably get way more exp,money and loot then a lonely solo droner whos been nerf'd to shit and people are still complaining about them.

To me it is simply un-resonable people being forced to share, go find something else to do if your first choice isnt available, the rest of us reasonable people with no time to spare do. We dont just go in shooting up everything until we get our way.

Also any team can/will totally out dmg a LE'd droner, hell most classes wihtout an LE will totally out dmg'd an Le'd player heads up

[Dope]

Any cap'd AoE class can clear rooms of noobs with their weapons, the noobs wont stand a chance ive seen it before, so i dont think a pack of noobs will take down a seasoned fine tuned cookie cutter build ganker/pvp'r

On the face of it, that's true, but isn't that bad tactics on the part of the lowbies in that case? I don't want to derail, but my opinion on that is "don't let the AOE guy get into a superior tactical position, move him out of it if he gets into one by rabbiting and pull him into a trap, heck, feed him to a copbot (done that myself back on Pluto, then later on Terra)" and like I said before "Running is a valid tactic" - territory control is part of the factional game, I'm not supposed to go to Mil Base, basically ever, unless I choose to work my factional symp to a point where I am allowed by the CM's that *live there* - Factional conflict is a core concept to this game.

WRT 'everybody leaves it in' - I'll share an anecdote. I've never left an LE in past day three of a character. I live in Pepper Park, the text description when I chose my faction told me in no uncertain terms that I would be living in a dangerous place and to choose a more Pro-City faction if I wanted less trouble at home. It is explicitly stated in the character create (or was, didn't read it this time around) implying that it is the intended behavior.

I see enemy runners at or near my rank all the time, many could easily take me if they just played that part of the game, but they don't. So, again, this is all anecdotal, but I call BS. I pulled my chip, and if those guys I'm seeing around all the time had also, our fights would be fair, and Pepper Park would be an exciting, sort of dicey place for people to go. Like it was explicitly stated to be. Nowadays it's sort of like Disneyland with hookers, and factions mean basically fuck-all. We're not even horde/alliance up in here (but I really don't like WoW much anyway )

I don't want to punish LE players, I want to reward non-LE'd players. "Buff, don't Nerf" is a game development adage that I stand by. Give nice things to people doing the intended things, and let the others progress into it at their own pace, or not.

[Dope]

Also, it has occurred to me that perhaps an important distinction should be made between sandbox environments and the WoW styled linear environment.

Some of us seem to think that there is an "intended leveling route to cap" - something like Dun Morogh -> Ironforge -> Stormwind -> etc... - that is not how this game was built, and though it's been bent over behind the shed a few times to get it to where it is now, that's still basically true.

Like I said about Mil Base, I shouldn't ever go there without expecting a fight that I may not win. I'm intended to level elsewhere.

Yet I still see people asking in help things like "At what level do I go to X to grind?" implying that they don't realize that the linear-world paradigm is not the only one out there. If I recall correctly, this game predates WoW and that linear paradigm.

[Chuck Norris]

unfortunately most dungeon areas dont leave much room to run, also you dont run very fast comparatively, comparing my pvp vs pve builds...
I do like the your avenue of thinking, bring everything up to be in line rather then nerf-bat'ing the shit out of everything

Min maxing has become so prevalent and semi necessary for a reasonable leveling time-framage.

[Dope]

I think we should continue to work on this until we have a viable solution. This is both a cultural and a mechanical issue.

But for now I've taken the first step. My chars have no LE's, and I won't be putting them back in. Please don't single me out as gankbait all day unless I'm asking for it have a little class.

In the meantime, I'd like some fair rivals in my 'hood, and I'd like some way to play my role in defending the BD's on the street. Suggestions? Volunteers?

[Kame]

Man I take out the LE as soon as the char spawns in noob MC5. To me it's all about the hardcore experience. Or lack thereof.

To tell you guys the truth I havnt been PKd much as a noob leveling, although my leveling usually takes place rather briefly (I go through noob-ish, mid-lv quite fast). Especially since almost everyone else lving was LEd, I would hunt most popular spots without watching over my shoulder really.

I did have a good encounter on my PPU when he was a mid-lv APU. It was at OZ gogo outside near ASG. We were both about the same lv and both clanned, enemy factions. I noob-barreled this mid-lv spy untill death, and he came back with a vegeance We had a like a 10min fight, barely making damage to one another, running all over the place and using the gogo. He then proceeded to run off in a 2 place HH wheeler LOL !

But that was only that encounter. The rest of them... didn't happen. I lvd mostly quietly, in a wolrd filled with LEd nibs which were buzzing in the background with crap I wouldn't give a shit about, mainly because it would't have an impact on my un-LEd ass.

Anyhow as far as MB/CRP cave raid goes, I think some ppl do it more out of habbit than anything They do it cuz they used to do it in the good ol' days.

[Faid]

Roughly 75% of the current population has an LE in their head. Thats three quarters of the active population that willingly chooses the LE playstyle. So we're talking about nerfing the vast majority of the population. I can't think of a better way to lose players. I would love to see the Devs try this lol I thought the most important thing for the continued survival of the game was to gain players, which they have done with the anti-cheat and fresh server. This whole conversation is utterly counter-productive.

[Druid311]

I like the idea. I would like to see some sectors heavily penalizing players for ganking though. Nothing sucks more than when a dick ganks you in regants. This is what people are afraid of. Bring back Pepper Park pvp.

[Izeo]

Some LE users make these complaints: Leave the LE alone, because I don't want to deal with 14 year old drooling PKers who gank their own allies and/or lower levels for literally no reason other than teh lulz, and then ROFL about it.

Some Non-LE users make these complaints: LE sucks because it's not fair that LE p*ssy carebears can be rude or inconsiderate to me with no risk of death, and do exploits like lock zones and kill my NPCs for teh lulz, and then ROFL about it.

The problem has nothing to do with LE or non-LE players. Everyone knows that ALL players from either category do not fit in the above groups. The problem is only players who are assholes. That's it. In fact, it would not surprise me that there are in fact some players who have some LE'd characters, and some non-LE'd characters, and they do BOTH of the things complained about above.

I could be an asshole wearing an LE and be rude and do the exploits mentioned in this thread. I could also be an asshole without an LE and camp at MB and kill players, allied or not. I'd ROFL about it either way.

Or, I could be a decent, sane person wearing an LE and be considerate to other players and do no exploits. I could be a decent, sane person without an LE and only kill hostiles and/or OP wars and/or duels and/or NeoFrag and/or reasonable fights, and maybe even the occasional uncalled for wasteland gank for no reason, but not be a total prick about it like camping a newbie leveling area.

You can be an asshole whether you have the LE or not. Also, that statement that LE users aren't roleplaying was also bullshit. I use LE, and yes, I don't roleplay. You got me. But I just don't enjoy roleplaying. So? Newbie ganker/allied gankers aren't roleplaying either and you KNOW IT. They're JUST doing it to piss other people off. That's what's fun to some people.

To summarize: Being an asshole or being a roleplayer is completely independent of whether or not you use an LE chip, so stahp.

[gostly]

Roughly 75% of the current population has an LE in their head. Thats three quarters of the active population that willingly chooses the LE playstyle. So we're talking about nerfing the vast majority of the population. I can't think of a better way to lose players. I would love to see the Devs try this lol I thought the most important thing for the continued survival of the game was to gain players, which they have done with the anti-cheat and fresh server. This whole conversation is utterly counter-productive.

Uh...what? Who said anything about nerfing people that have LE's? And you think this conversation is counter-productive? You think if people had incentive(keyword) to take out their LE, they would leave the game? That's such BS, this game was doing great back when they had the old system in place(remove your LE, gain more exp). And if the majority of players have LE's in right now(which I believe you're right about that)...it's a problem.

[Faid]

Please believe me when I say that the population would take it as a huge effin nerf if they added an XP negative for wearing an LE. You can count on that.

Yes I do think this conversation is counter-productive, by doing this you would certainly drive people away, not entice them to take the LE out. It's never a good idea to try to steer people into doing something they don't want to do in the first place. Especially if the direction is in the minority by a huge amount.

The game is absolutely not the same as it was way back in NC1 when the LE nerf (have an LE in and be penalized with less XP) was in place. Please stop using this as an excuse it's such BS. It's not a problem if the vast majority of people want to keep their LE in while leveling.

Mostly people will level with the LE in order to cap then pop it out so they can PVP. Nerfing XP for wearing an LE will only serve to hinder the leveling process, it will certainly be perceived this way. And what about all the people who have already leveled to cap unaffected by this LE nerf? This may have been somewhat plausible at the release of Titan but to implement it now would be retarded.

The vast majority of people playing don't seem to have any problem with the way the LE is now, why on Earth would they fuck with it? Certainly not to appease the 7 or 8 people on these forums who don't like it.

[Strife]

Roughly 75% of the current population has an LE in their head. Thats three quarters of the active population that willingly chooses the LE playstyle. So we're talking about nerfing the vast majority of the population. I can't think of a better way to lose players.

People leave it in because "why bother taking it out?". Also, people play because they love the game, which makes me seriously doubt they'd quit over something like getting killed. If they're going to get upset and leave just because they died a few times in a video game they need to grow up.

[gostly]

Please believe me when I say that the population would take it as a huge effin nerf if they added an XP negative for wearing an LE. You can count on that.

Yes I do think this conversation is counter-productive, by doing this you would certainly drive people away, not entice them to take the LE out. It's never a good idea to try to steer people into doing something they don't want to do in the first place. Especially if the direction is in the minority by a huge amount.

The game is absolutely not the same as it was way back in NC1 when the LE nerf (have an LE in and be penalized with less XP) was in place. Please stop using this as an excuse it's such BS. It's not a problem if the vast majority of people want to keep their LE in while leveling.

Mostly people will level with the LE in order to cap then pop it out so they can PVP. Nerfing XP for wearing an LE will only serve to hinder the leveling process, it will certainly be perceived this way. And what about all the people who have already leveled to cap unaffected by this LE nerf? This may have been somewhat plausible at the release of Titan but to implement it now would be retarded.

The vast majority of people playing don't seem to have any problem with the way the LE is now, why on Earth would they fuck with it? Certainly not to appease the 7 or 8 people on these forums who don't like it.

Yeah because neocron 2 was a great success right? Most of us quit when NC2 came around because the changes were bad. They obviously made that LE change during NC2 and it sure as hell didn't bring anyone back to the game. The reason old vets are coming back is in hopes that the devs(who care about the game as much as we did) will make/correct some of the changes that NC2 brought about. So yea, we're talking about the LE in this thread because we believe it needs to be addressed.

Oh and just my opinion, any new players that keep their LE's in are missing out on some of the best experiences in the game. Fighting when you're not capped and have all the best shit is exciting. But hey, like I said it's just my opinion, everyone has one.