1. #256

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    thanks for sharing those, it's cool to see a mod inspired by neocron, and get a more experienced view on such projects.

    for me nc:s has always been a way to train my modelling skills. The main reason for switching to UDK is that everyone can play it, not just those with the right version of a valve game, as well as r2d2k being more familiar with udk.

    After having produced the models for the hl2 dm map, I've taken a break because it seemed the rest was pretty much given up, seeing as none of the mappers seem to be willing to continue, or at least not being able to work on it.

    As to your saying that we need a programmer, we have a huge amount of planning done, in which we had the game split in 4 phases:
    • First goal is a simple HL2eathMatch style game, in which only the maps are released, on which players can play the common deathmatch game.
    • integrate Neocron weapons and spells, depending on progress maybe also player models
    • After that, we can work on control point style games, in which for example a number of players fight over control of an outpost
    • Persistent gameplay, ability to set up your own characters which are stored online, and maybe even have a leveling system and weapon gathering/upgrading system


    The most important reason for this was that we wanted to gain momentum by getting people to play the maps first, maybe draw some more talent from the community, and then continue expanding the mod.

    Regretfully the mod died out a while because of lack of interest in programming for source, which was rekindled with udk, but seems to be waning again regretfully. As before, I'm not familiar enough with C++ to be programming, so I'm not going to invest too much time creating art assets that are not going to be used.
    ingame names: Biglines (dissy spy), Mr Tool (low tech tank), Engineer Tool (constructor), Medical Tool (ppu/hacker/poker), Father Tool (apu)

  2. #257

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    One thing you need to be certain of is you have reakktor's consent. They could turn a blind eye to development until you're about to release it and issue a cease and desist order, or hand over rights to everything you've done for barely anything and reap the benefits. I don't know how KK rolls but this has been done before, so careful!

    My plan would be this :

    If you're having trouble finding a really good programmer,
    Just get ONE map done, and 3 weapons, just replace the models for a gun that functions in a similar fashion, and hide the hud. use this build to gain interest in your project. Ideally if you have ANY programmer, they could help making the guns function a little more closely to how they should, and maybe even reskin the GUI.

    If that's not enough, get ONE playermodel done if possible.

    In addition to creating this build and being able to get some nice screenshots you should write a 1-2 page document outlining the goals and rough milestones (phases like you mentioned) and ensure it's well written, Never use words like 'maybe' or 'or' in it, be definitive in what the plan is so it's rock solid.


    Now you need to lurk IRC channels and forums for modding and development and chat with people who are interested in cyberpunk, ideally ex neocron players, anarchy online players, dystopia players, bladerunner fans etc, whom happen to be developers and you can convince them to try on your team.

    What always helps is to sign up for a free account at beanstalk and familiarize yourself with SVN, ensure your latest build is always on SVN and ideally have seperate repos, one for the built game folder people can check out into wherever it needs to be checked out into, and one for development. This way potential users can have the game repo shared with them so they can try it out, and you can give them the dev repo once they've joined.

    SVN is really important, and once you have everyone commiting every day *Even if something isn't complete* so they can see changes it will really motivate everyone else on the team by making them want to finish their work to show it off to the rest of the team, you'll build on each others progress and motivation.

    If you do that, the rest should come naturally. Your game will look better and better and get more and more advanced in turn giving you more bargaining power to hire more advanced developers.

    Recognize the signs of someone flaking out, They'll be online less often, respond less often, commit work less often, or when they do, much less progress will be done than should be, but they don't really want to admit they're not working on it as much as they could be /should be, oh this came up oh that came up. And that's totally fine, let them finish up whatever feature/model they were working on and don't assign them any other work unless they ask for it. When you first see the signs, start hunting for someone else to take over their tasks. If the person comes around then you'll have 2 capable workers so it's a win win. The key is to ensure there are no development slumps because it's toxic and can infect other developers. It sucks working without money but this is what I remember from modding days.


    I hope that helps. And lastly, there is one quote you should always, always abide by :

    "Release Early. Release Often"

  3. #258

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    Quote Originally Posted by Helkster
    1. It really doesn't matter what engine you choose, it's better to stick to one engine and actually ship something than switch it up. Switching engines provides a short term breath of fresh air for teams who are stuck, but in the long run slows you down. Regarding the source engine, I'd say it's not feasable if it would go beyond a small community of a few hundred players tops. When I programmed Hostile Planet, I had it fully working saving all the player data, zoning between servers etc. But just the raw processing power required by a traditional first person shooter engine is immense, so heavy combat on lots of servers will really slow down fast. I suspect unreal engine 3 to have similar issues with it's netcode. You're also severely limited in what you can do as you don't (and likely won't) have all the source code access you need, but I could be wrong.
    Actually, Unreal Engine 3 is used in several MMO's. The late Stargate Worlds was to run on it and DC Universe Online and Star Wars The Old Republic run on it.
    I'm not sure if those capabilities are available for modding though.

    Also, the videos for Hostile Planet look really awesome! Shame a playable game was never released.


    Quote Originally Posted by Biglines
    Regretfully the mod died out a while because of lack of interest in programming for source, which was rekindled with udk, but seems to be waning again regretfully. As before, I'm not familiar enough with C++ to be programming, so I'm not going to invest too much time creating art assets that are not going to be used.
    I have quite a bit of experience with the original Unreal engine from my days of modding Deus Ex, so I can look into UE3 modding. I can at the very least help until the mod can get on it's feat.
    The stuff I used to do is quite similar to what would be done in this mod.
    I'm also a web developer, so I could help with that when the time comes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Helkster
    One thing you need to be certain of is you have reakktor's consent. They could turn a blind eye to development until you're about to release it and issue a cease and desist order, or hand over rights to everything you've done for barely anything and reap the benefits. I don't know how KK rolls but this has been done before, so careful!
    The mod has already gotten the okay from KK.

  4. #259

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    Quote Originally Posted by flib
    Actually, Unreal Engine 3 is used in several MMO's. The late Stargate Worlds was to run on it and DC Universe Online and Star Wars The Old Republic run on it.
    I'm not sure if those capabilities are available for modding though.
    Yeah, and Lineage 2 ran on the Ut2k3/4 engine, but what they do is use the game engine effectively as a listen server for their own client, and have their own netcode feeding it to display what's going on on the 'real' servers. You don't get any of that sort of capability with the stock engine. Nor the ability to add it via scripting (as far as I know, maybe plugins have come a long way...)

    Quote Originally Posted by flib
    I have quite a bit of experience with the original Unreal engine from my days of modding Deus Ex, so I can look into UE3 modding. I can at the very least help until the mod can get on it's feat.
    The stuff I used to do is quite similar to what would be done in this mod.
    I'm also a web developer, so I could help with that when the time comes.
    And if you don't already know uScript (you probably do) it's a small step from knowing any javascript, so if they're going the unreal way you're a perfect candidate

    There you go, Biglines.

  5. #260

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    not sure if you knew this, but udk is a standalone environment for developing standalone games, where for non-commercial use it is free (the udk is however also the base sdk for other games using the unreal 3 engine afaik), so it should be possible for expansion of server code beyond listen servers. That said, I have no idea how difficult to change, or how well the default server works.

    At the moment the main problem for me has been that I don't have space yet to run udk , which will change once i get my new desktop pc.

    I also feel that indeed a programmer or at least someone needs to take the lead in dividing tasks. But because this has always been a hobby project for most, noone has taken it that seriously yet
    ingame names: Biglines (dissy spy), Mr Tool (low tech tank), Engineer Tool (constructor), Medical Tool (ppu/hacker/poker), Father Tool (apu)

  6. #261

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    Quote Originally Posted by Biglines
    not sure if you knew this, but udk is a standalone environment for developing standalone games, where for non-commercial use it is free (the udk is however also the base sdk for other games using the unreal 3 engine afaik), so it should be possible for expansion of server code beyond listen servers. That said, I have no idea how difficult to change, or how well the default server works.

    At the moment the main problem for me has been that I don't have space yet to run udk , which will change once i get my new desktop pc.

    I also feel that indeed a programmer or at least someone needs to take the lead in dividing tasks. But because this has always been a hobby project for most, noone has taken it that seriously yet
    Nah. What I mean is you don't get the actual source code, just the ability to script game mechanics based on what they've decided to expose to the scripting language, I just double checked and you don't get any source-code, that would cost quite a bit ($500k+ last I heard?)

    The good news is this :
    You'll be able to make your game and ship it standalone without paying anything and you'll have learned quite a bit and have a bunch of high quality NC art assets. (I say high quality because even the worst modeler could produce art that looks better than 99% of the stuff in Neocron today )

    That should be your focus in any case, so if you really want to switch then go for it

  7. #262

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    Quote Originally Posted by Helkster
    Nah. What I mean is you don't get the actual source code, just the ability to script game mechanics based on what they've decided to expose to the scripting language, I just double checked and you don't get any source-code, that would cost quite a bit ($500k+ last I heard?)

    The good news is this :
    You'll be able to make your game and ship it standalone without paying anything and you'll have learned quite a bit and have a bunch of high quality NC art assets. (I say high quality because even the worst modeler could produce art that looks better than 99% of the stuff in Neocron today )

    That should be your focus in any case, so if you really want to switch then go for it
    its not just scripting cuz r2d2k has been writing c++ code afaik.

    as to the art, we've had a few things ready, most of them are in the OP of this thread, what you think? :P
    ingame names: Biglines (dissy spy), Mr Tool (low tech tank), Engineer Tool (constructor), Medical Tool (ppu/hacker/poker), Father Tool (apu)

  8. #263

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    Pretty sure it's just unrealScript in udk, but anyways..

    Seems like you were using alot of textures from hl2 to make the maps, which sort of helps. I don't know what UDK comes with but I don't think you get many textures so you're going to have to end up doing all those too in addition to mapping.


    Good luck guys!

  9. #264

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    Quote Originally Posted by Helkster
    Pretty sure it's just unrealScript in udk, but anyways..

    Seems like you were using alot of textures from hl2 to make the maps, which sort of helps. I don't know what UDK comes with but I don't think you get many textures so you're going to have to end up doing all those too in addition to mapping.


    Good luck guys!
    no idea, i just modeled, and did all my textures myself.

    ah just checked, seems like ur right... weird
    Last edited by Biglines; 23-02-11 at 18:01.
    ingame names: Biglines (dissy spy), Mr Tool (low tech tank), Engineer Tool (constructor), Medical Tool (ppu/hacker/poker), Father Tool (apu)

  10. #265

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    Afaik i never said that i am writing c++ for the UDK, perhaps you misunderstood me biglines. UDK is really "just" what Helkster says and uses Uscript. We don't have access to the c++ source code, that would cost 500k$. But the things you have access to are basically the same as in the Source-SDK.
    Even though the Source-SDK "speaks" c++, you don't have access to everything. You basically have access to the same things in Source-SDK and UDK. The big difference is that the UDK's structure is much cleaner (surely that's something we could argue all day long about ). To implement MMO-mechanics, especially the big-world-aspect, you will have to overcome several difficulties, no matter whether you are using the Source-SDK or the UDK. Both suffer from nearly the same difficulties. They have been created with "just" a limited number of players and fast paced action in mind. This in complete contrast to our "MMO-ambitions". In the Source-SDK you can overcome this, because you have to write c++ code and have to compile it (this would not be possible or at least it would be much harder if the Source SDK would interpret the code you write). To overcome this odd in UDK you can use UDK's DLLBind-functions.

    All in all the project is doable in both, the Source-SDK and the UDK. The big differences between those two are that the UDK is free and the UDK's structure, documentation and code are superior compared to the Source-SDK one's (but again, that's a point one could argue all day long about).

  11. #266

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    Quote Originally Posted by r2d22k
    Afaik i never said that i am writing c++ for the UDK, perhaps you misunderstood me biglines. UDK is really "just" what Helkster says and uses Uscript. We don't have access to the c++ source code, that would cost 500k$. But the things you have access to are basically the same as in the Source-SDK.
    Even though the Source-SDK "speaks" c++, you don't have access to everything. You basically have access to the same things in Source-SDK and UDK. The big difference is that the UDK's structure is much cleaner (surely that's something we could argue all day long about ). To implement MMO-mechanics, especially the big-world-aspect, you will have to overcome several difficulties, no matter whether you are using the Source-SDK or the UDK. Both suffer from nearly the same difficulties. They have been created with "just" a limited number of players and fast paced action in mind. This in complete contrast to our "MMO-ambitions". In the Source-SDK you can overcome this, because you have to write c++ code and have to compile it (this would not be possible or at least it would be much harder if the Source SDK would interpret the code you write). To overcome this odd in UDK you can use UDK's DLLBind-functions.

    All in all the project is doable in both, the Source-SDK and the UDK. The big differences between those two are that the UDK is free and the UDK's structure, documentation and code are superior compared to the Source-SDK one's (but again, that's a point one could argue all day long about).
    ah k, got that wrong.

    Btw afaik source actually only compiles your mod into a dll that is loaded by the game engine (combined with all the art assets ofc), so not sure if thats that much different.

    aaaah wait, I was confused. I thought by uscript u meant that weird flowchart style of visual programming. nvm, im up to date again
    ingame names: Biglines (dissy spy), Mr Tool (low tech tank), Engineer Tool (constructor), Medical Tool (ppu/hacker/poker), Father Tool (apu)

  12. #267

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    Quote Originally Posted by Biglines
    Btw afaik source actually only compiles your mod into a dll that is loaded by the game engine (combined with all the art assets ofc), so not sure if thats that much different.
    Yeah when working with the Source-SDK you have to compile everything into dlls and these are then loaded by the game engine. Haven't mentioned that cause that's just technical stuff most of the people aren't interested in

    No matter whether you are using UDK or Source-SDK you don't have access to the underlying network code and that's what makes things a little bit more complicated.

    @Helkster:
    The work you have done looks really great, especially having all that done with the Source-SDK is a huge achievement. *Thumbs up*

  13. #268

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    There are ways to make standard FPS engines work as "mmo" but you're limited to their server capacity on a per zone level.

    Basically you have entities for switching zones (Think switching between PP1 and PP3, the cooridoors) The entity sends the client the IP address of the server hosting the next zone, and you initiate a console connect command, it's pretty easy to get started with that.

    The real problem is with how much processing power and bandwidth most FPS engines use by default so you really have to know what you're doing to get it so you can run 3-4 zones on one machine.. You gotta send way less updates and figure out interpolation and prediction and stuff like that, weapons have to work completely different, only sending if the weapon trigger is down, instead of all the associated bullet effects and stuff but it's all doable.

    This is why when you play traditional FPS games it usually feels rock solid, and when you play games like planetside and neocron nothing matches up across clients and you see all sorts of errors with bullets not doing damage, or gunshots doing damage through walls or around corners etc, you're getting very limited information about the state of the game, and trying to smooth between these updates to generate the missing data.


    Neocron is the absolute worst for this man haha, a guy jumps off a ledge and you see him walking slowly diagonally through the wall and stuff like that, because it only has the data of the person on the ledge, and then them on the ground to work with. I think they changed how that worked with one of the newer versions so if the height value difference is too big they just 'snap' them to the new position so it doesn't look as retarded.

  14. #269
    Loving Titan L0KI's Avatar
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    Myself and 5 RL mates are about to begin the creation of an MMO. We're looking into the various engines available, and have a few thousand £ to throw at it.

    Between us, we cover game development, C/C++, Java, extensive server knowledge, 3D modelling and already have a hugely epic story about a dystopian world.

    It won't be Neocron, but there are several elements which have been inspired by Neocron, such as the combat system we plan to implement.

    No doubt it will take a year or two before we even get an ALPHA out, but I'm willing to make a bet here and now, that we beat NC3 to release
    Last edited by L0KI; 25-02-11 at 10:47.

  15. #270
    I am BlackMaze SilentEye's Avatar
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    I think that the people willing to lay down a foundation have to somehow get together (IRC/Skype/whatever) to determine how exactly this thing is to come together.

    I'm under the impression that there is now the debate that this is either going to be running on the Source enginer or the Unreal engine.

    I'd like to send out a warning not to get ahead of your self. There is no point in talking about content until the foundation is set.

    I can't code so, my opinion isn't worth a lot so.. I still want to tell you: Get together guys and sort this out or I can asure you that nothing at all will happen

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